IFR Navigation in WW2?

Your assessment differs from mine because I focused on the USAAF and you are using RAF information.

That doesn't invalidate your claims, they're just different from what I referred to.

Your reference does mention the inaccuracy of H2S bombing, as I also pointed out, which caused the CPE of those 32,000 RAF sorties to be excessive. H2X was a huge tool for CPE improvement for both services.
 
Last edited:
Your assessment differs from mine because I focused on the USAAF and you are using RAF information.

That doesn't invalidate your claims, they're just different from what I referred to.

Your reference does mention the inaccuracy of H2S bombing, as I also pointed out, which caused the CPE of those 32,000 RAF sorties to be excessive. H2X was a huge tool for CPE improvement for both services.
The thread, AFAIK, didn't differentiate between air forces.
George Valley (one of the engineers involved in H2X) realized that whatever they were aiming at was at least a mile in diameter, since that was the size of the bomber formations- this was using H2X.

In fact, despite being used late in 1943, "Mickey was adopted so vigorously that by years end the original dozen B-17's equipped with H2X were leading 90% of the US bombing missions.Total bomb tonnage dropped via H2X in the last two months of 1943 surpassed the amount dropped by visual sighting over the entire year." (p. 212)
 
I know this as a four year old thread, but so much interesting here, and I’ve added one book from here to my Amazon cart. What I’ve been wondering a lot about was more over water flying in WWII. In the pacific, where they had to fly to a small island and small errors in nav would have been no chance to even see the destination. I had read of navigators using celestial when they had to, but just if anyone knows how it was?
 
i've always heard that the japanese homed in on the AM radio station broadcasts from honolulu en route to pearl harbor. i can't imagine that once hostilities commenced that all AM radio was silenced.
Back in the day I had a list of hundreds of AM radio station frequencies, Maine to Florida and out to the Mississippi River, and exactly where they were located. The actual towers, not the location of the "station". All free from the FCC. Loved me some ADF. I haven't flown plane with a working ADF in probably 6 years, maybe more. Sigh......
 
Back in the day I had a list of hundreds of AM radio station frequencies, Maine to Florida and out to the Mississippi River, and exactly where they were located. The actual towers, not the location of the "station". All free from the FCC. Loved me some ADF. I haven't flown plane with a working ADF in probably 6 years, maybe more. Sigh......
First 135 training I did, as we were doing the ILS and VOR, owner was in the right seat writing. When I finished those approaches, he handed me a very detailed sketch of an approach chart based on the local radio station. Put us right over the airport at the predicted time. :eek:
 
First 135 training I did, as we were doing the ILS and VOR, owner was in the right seat writing. When I finished those approaches, he handed me a very detailed sketch of an approach chart based on the local radio station. Put us right over the airport at the predicted time. :eek:

Sounds similar to the ''VFR'' GPS approaches we made up when I first went to Alaska...

We only used them in emergency situations of course... :smilewinkgrin:
 
My Dad was trained on and flew both 4 course radio range for enroute and approaches as well as NDB based navigation, either with a manual direction finder or an ADF. He got his wings of Gold (Naval Aviator) in 1950.

He flew operationally until 1966.

I just talked to him. He flew TACAN in the mid 50s/early 60s over land and off of carriers. Some VOR flying in the mid-50s in the SNB (Navy Beech 18).

PAR (GCA) approach was developed during WWII. Arthur C. Clarke was involved and wrote a fictionalized story about the development called "Glide Path."

The USAF used celestial navigation as back up tankers, transports and bombers up into the 80s
 
I know this as a four year old thread, but so much interesting here, and I’ve added one book from here to my Amazon cart. What I’ve been wondering a lot about was more over water flying in WWII. In the pacific, where they had to fly to a small island and small errors in nav would have been no chance to even see the destination. I had read of navigators using celestial when they had to, but just if anyone knows how it was?
I think Song of the Sky, the book I referenced in Post #20, above, is exactly what you're looking for.


Song of The Sky was written in 1954 by Guy Murchie, a journalist who had served as a navigator in the USAAF during WW2. He writes not only of navigation but also aerodynamics, weather, history of flight and more, all with a poet's touch. It's a wonderful book. [...]

The book is available through Kindle and iBooks; or if you're really cheap, the full unformatted text is here: https://archive.org/stream/songofsky00murc/songofsky00murc_djvu.txt
 
I think Song of the Sky, the book I referenced in Post #20, above, is exactly what you're looking for.
Thanks for the replies!
I just bought that book on Amazon. Also “through the overcast”.

Have been reports here in Norway, the Russians are jamming GPS almost every day up in the north of Norway by Finland, since the war in Ukraine started and flights are having to use “other methods” for navigation there.
 
Some more of the history of IFR navigation, from the history of College Park Airport, MD.

This includes more details of the vibrating reed instrument in Mitchells plane, and its limitations. These were the attempts that came before Mitchell's historic flight. A few observations that seem relevant to the differences are as follows:

Field elevation at Annacostia Naval Airport are at the same elevation, so takeoff and landing were at the same altimeter indication.
The short dead reckoning flight assured suitable positioning for the instrument system to be accurate. Mitchell's test also had this advantage.
The grass runway landed on was 200 feet wide 3000 feet long, and had no obstructions higher than 5 feet. Mitchell's airport was similar.


note at the end of the description, the experiments failed to get used, because the airline pilots did not trust the technology.. As Mitchell observed, they had faith in "The seat of their pants" That was a hard sell, as those that had flown in cloud and survived had faith in their special skills, those who died had no story to tell. Obviously, they were inferiors pilots.

Firsts at College park Airport


RADIO NAVIGATION AIDS​

Before the world could have reliable airlines, overnight shipping, and all weather fighters, researchers and inventors had to develop a system for pilots to navigate and land their aircraft without seeing the world around them. Until a pilot could safely fly at night, in fog, or other poor weather, flight also could not compete with the railroads or trucks. From 1918-1934, the National Bureau of Standards (NBS), the U.S. Navy, the Post Office, and other government and private organizations regularly used College Park Airport to design and test "blind flight" systems. Their work is part of the foundation of the modern Instrument Landing System still used today.

National Bureau of Standards Involvement​

When the Air Commerce Act of 1926 dramatically increased the federal government's role in developing and regulating aviation, National Bureau of Standards (NBS) officials became responsible to lead specific areas of aeronautical research, including developing radio aids to navigation. That summer, NBS started developing College Park as one of its field sites. They soon erected a 70-foot wooden tower supporting 2 antennas and a 500-watt radio transmitter. Early success came in 1927, when NBS tested a "vibrating reed" visual radio beacon indicator. In this system, the ground transmitter emitted 2 radio signals for the plane to receive. If the pilot was in between the 2 signals, the 2 reeds on the airplane would appear the same length.
  1. Pilots Posed With Aircraft

    Pilot James Kinney and Check Pilot Clarence Young with the hooded Curtiss Fledgling aircraft used in blind flying experiments, College Park, 1933 (CPAM Photograph, Kear Collection)
When the plane was too far to the left or right to find the airfield, the corresponding reed would appear longer. However, the system was not accurate enough, did not respond fast enough to changes in direction, and was too heavy for commercial aircraft.

Blind Landing​

In 1931, a brand-new Curtiss Fledgling J-1 Special, a 2-place open cockpit biplane trainer, was acquired for blind flying tests. It had a collapsible hood that could cover the pilot's cockpit for blind flying tests without obstructing the view of the backup pilot. On September 5, 1931, Marshall Boggs used this plane to complete the first blind landing at College Park, with James L. Kinney as check pilot. While accuracy was improving, the system was very sensitive and was only effective in good weather (no wind, no turbulent air, no radio static), the opposite of when instruments were needed.

Washington Institute of Technology​

In late 1933, financial cutbacks dictated by the Great Depression ended the government organized development. However, several former NBS employees then established the Washington Institute of Technology (WIT) to continue developing radio navigation at College Park. WIT then produced blind flying instruments for the U.S. Navy to test. On May 1, 1934, Navy Lt. Frank Akers took off from Anacostia Naval Air Station in a Berliner-Joyce OJ-2, and successfully landed at College Park using only the WIT instruments. A little over a year later, on July 30, 1935, Akers used similar equipment to land on the aircraft carrier USS Langley, while it was underway off the coast of San Diego. Despite these successful tests, the technology was not yet accurate enough for regular aircraft carrier operations. However, it was useful for Navy seaplanes.

Although the Navy didn't purchase the system, WIT officials created the Air-Track Corporation of College Park to sell the landing equipment to commercial airports. Pittsburgh, PA, officials bought and installed the system leading to the first blind landing of a passenger-carrying flight on January 28, 1938. Unfortunately, pilots never trusted the system enough to encourage air
 
note at the end of the description, the experiments failed to get used, because the airline pilots did not trust the technology.. As Mitchell observed, they had faith in "The seat of their pants" That was a hard sell, as those that had flown in cloud and survived had faith in their special skills, those who died had no story to tell. Obviously, they were inferiors pilots.
Normalization of deviance and survivor bias, all the way back then!
 
If someone would "reinvent" ADF with low power micro elelectronics receiver, I'd use it in my plane.
Just because.

There should be a way to do DF based on FM radio fairly easily. The signals are strong, there are lots of them, and it's line of sight.
 
Thanks for the replies!
I just bought that book on Amazon. Also “through the overcast”.

Have been reports here in Norway, the Russians are jamming GPS almost every day up in the north of Norway by Finland, since the war in Ukraine started and flights are having to use “other methods” for navigation there.
RV Jones - who was mentioned in an old post in this thread - wrote The Wizard War. How British radar, navigation systems, and other advancements played a huge role in WWII.


A few tidbits - a German navigation radio beacon wasn't destroyed - because the British found it useful as well. The Germans successfully jammed a new British radar station in the Mediterranean. The answer was to take no action and continue operating it. After a week or so the Germans reasoned since it was still transmitting, their jamming must not be working. So they stopped. And as a result the radar once again became useful to the British.
 
There should be a way to do DF based on FM radio fairly easily. The signals are strong, there are lots of them, and it's line of sight.
I've been saying this for a long time. The location of antennas are known, too. A LF scanner ought to be able to plot enough AM bearings to get a pretty good idea of position. Somebody get to work it on it already. PM me for my royalties address.
 
I'm not that old, but when I started flying heavies (KC-135s), celestial navigation was how we still got across the ocean until the mid 90s. We had an INS and a DNS (Doppler Navigation System) on board, but the INS was an single, old Carousel IV unit which became pretty reliable without constant updating from ground based NAVAIDS. The DNS went tits-up pretty quickly after coasting out since water didn't give much of a return for it to calculate much of anything.

It was the Boom Operator's job to take the cell "shot" using a star, planet, the sun... whatever the Navigator chose. The Nav would have all of his/her "pre-comps" worked out and along with huge volumes of the "Air Almanac" on their desk, would draw a probable position on the chart. Sometimes, I'd take a peek at their chart, and we the Nav would tell me "we are somewhere in this triangle." That triangle being relatively huge. It was all voodoo to me. The Nav might as well had a bunch of chicken bones and tea leaves scattered on that chart.

We would always have the closest VOR/TACAN to our coast-in point dialed up (usually Lands End going eastbound). We would watch the bearing pointer spin in circles for hours and waited anxiously for it to "lock-on." That's when you knew how good the Nav was that night. When the spinning needle finally froze in position with the head at the top of the HSI, you knew things went as planned and the Nav knew he didn't have to buy beers at the pub that night. Or... the bearing pointer was cocked-off 50 degrees which was followed by a call from the back "Pilot, Nav... uh... come left 70 degrees." In that case, you knew the Nav was buying all the beers at the pub that night.

The other Nav related "error" that would routinely happen crossing the pond had to do with that old crappy Carousel IV INS. The INS head would only be able to store nine waypoints, and once it got to the 9th point in its memory, it would cycle to waypoint number one. So the Nav would load the first nine points on the flight plan, and as we passed each one, they would enter the next point back at the beginning of the waypoint list, so after point nine, they would load waypoint number 10 into the 1st spot in the INS, the 11th waypoint into spot 2, etc. Well, between cell shots there wasn't much for a navigator to do except lay his head on their desk and try not to fall asleep, which they often did. So, while they were inevitably "asleep at the wheel" the waypoints wouldn't be getting updated, so somewhere over the Atlantic, we would pass waypoint 9 in the INS and it would cycle to waypoint 1, which was 1,000 miles behind us. So the plane would dutifully start making a U-turn in the middle of the ocean to head home. Hilarity ensued. And more free beers at the pub.
 
Back
Top