IFR filed altitude

luvflyin said:
Anyway, back to the can two altitudes actually be ‘filed,’ it looks like it doesn’t happen on domestic flights, even those as long as all the way Puerto Rico.
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An initial cruise altitude is filed on either type of flight plan.

The ICAO flight plan allows for changes in altitude to be filed within the routing section. Generally, particularly in the US, the controllers seem unaware of the altitude changes in the flight plan and they must be requested when you are ready for them.
 
Larry in TN said:
An initial cruise altitude is filed on either type of flight plan.

The ICAO flight plan allows for changes in altitude to be filed within the routing section. Generally, particularly in the US, the controllers seem unaware of the altitude changes in the flight plan and they must be requested when you are ready for them.
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They were on the strip 20 years ago.
 
luvflyin said:
They were on the strip 20 years ago.
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I have no idea what they see. Controllers in the US never say anything that would make me believe that they are aware of our filed step climbs. Occasionally, controllers outside the US do.
 
Larry in TN said:
I have no idea what they see. Controllers in the US never say anything that would make me believe that they are aware of our filed step climbs.
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I really wouldn't expect them to be. I know exactly zero about how oceanic routes work but at least domestically, our filed altitude is just a preference, heck, we don't even have to file based on the hemispheric rule. The "cleared as filed" abbreviated clearance is a route clearance; "the altitude or flight level assigned that aircraft by ATC" (the words of the regulation) is assigned separately.
luvflyin said:
They were on the strip 20 years ago.
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Did they see our requested altitudes or the ones they assigned?
 
Larry in TN said:
I have no idea what they see. Controllers in the US never say anything that would make me believe that they are aware of our filed step climbs. Occasionally, controllers outside the US do.
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They would want, make that need really. They need to plan way ahead. It wouldn't be like all of a sudden you at 280 say I wanna go up to 370 and they could maybe give some other plane 'turn 20 degrees left' to make room for you to go up like when there is Radar. Maybe ADSB has changed things, I dunno. Have you ever been vectored over the middle of the Ocean? Even though you do have to request it and get it first, they are making a plan to do it where it is expected. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing Mach Speed changes sometimes at those points.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I really wouldn't expect them to be. I know exactly zero about how oceanic routes work but at least domestically, our filed altitude is just a preference, heck, we don't even have to file based on the hemispheric rule. The "cleared as filed" abbreviated clearance is a route clearance; "the altitude or flight level assigned that aircraft by ATC" (the words of the regulation) is assigned separately.

Did they see our requested altitudes or the ones they assigned?
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I can only say from the perspective of where I worked, LA Center. We set up the intital separation. We worked it out to about 300 miles offshore. Sometimes I'd change the initial requested requested altitude a thousand feet and maybe Mach by a hundredth when giving Tower the release. Sometimes after they're in the air we ask for maybe more. Like can ya do this altitude or that mach. That could help getting following departures out sooner. We'd enter the altitude when doing it and that's what showed in the main body of the strip. The part in remarks where all the step climb stuff was, did not change. I suppose things have changed some since back then.
 
Clip4 said:
You file for the first altitude you want consistent with E/W rule. There can be a number of different factors that effect that decision: Ceiling, icing, FD, airspace, hypoxia, terrain, ect.
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You file the altitude you want for cruise. There is no E/W rule in the US for IFR in controlled airspace. If you plan on cruising at more than one altitude, file for the first one you intend. You will need to obtain a new clearance for cruising at subsequent altitudes. You can file for a change of altitude beginning at at a fix, but it is ignored by ATC. ATC will assign your altitude and it does not always comply with the hemispheric rule, but usually will. ATC will require a higher altitude if the MIA or MVA requires one. Of course, you can always request a new altitude. So filing for a cruise altitude in the US only applies for the initial cruise altitude. Often clearances or SIDs will have an initial altitude to maintain that is lower than the filed requested altitude, but this is not the cruise altitude.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay, after rereading and taking myself out of jet mode, I see your question a bit better.

File the altitude you want to fly…. As long as it’s at or above the MEA.
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A cruise altitude has to be above the MIA, but you can file for lower, you just won't be cleared at a cruise altitude below the MIA. The MIA can be an MVA, MOCA, MEA or in the case of point to point navigation, at least 1000 feet (2000 feet in designated mountainous areas) above the highest obstacle within +/- 4 NM of the CL of track between the points. Center has MIA charts for their airspace and TRACON has MVA charts for theirs. ATC will keep you legal, regardless of what you file.
 
John Collins said:
You file the altitude you want for cruise. There is no E/W rule in the US for IFR in controlled airspace. If you plan on cruising at more than one altitude, file for the first one you intend. You will need to obtain a new clearance for cruising at subsequent altitudes. You can file for a change of altitude beginning at at a fix, but it is ignored by ATC. ATC will assign your altitude and it does not always comply with the hemispheric rule, but usually will. ATC will require a higher altitude if the MIA or MVA requires one. Of course, you can always request a new altitude. So filing for a cruise altitude in the US only applies for the initial cruise altitude. Often clearances or SIDs will have an initial altitude to maintain that is lower than the filed requested altitude, but this is not the cruise altitude.
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Depends on what you mean by rule. Yeah, FAR 91 doesn't mandate the E/W thing in Controlled Airspace except when OTP. Then 91.179 says you gotta do what 91.159 says, which is the hemispheric rule. But ATC has rules about assigning altitudes and the FAR has rules about complying with what ATC assigns you. And that's usually going to be the hemispheric thing.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That has not been my experience in 32 years of flying in the flight levels.
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The hemispheric rule from part 91 does not apply to IFR flights in controlled airspace.

ATC usually uses the same rule, though, but that's on their end, not ours. Florida, for example, is a very big exception where the ATC assigns altitudes based on N/S, not E/W.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That has not been my experience in 32 years of flying in the flight levels.
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It depends on how you look at it.

There is an FAR hemispheric rule for IFR flight in uncontrolled airspace, 91.179(b). But the rule for controlled airspace, 91.179(a), just says, "Each person operating an aircraft under IFR in level cruising flight in controlled airspace shall maintain the altitude or flight level assigned that aircraft by ATC" (unless operating VFR on top).

At the same time, ATC has its own hemispheric rule in paragraph 4-5-2 of the Point 65, subject to exceptions for "traffic, meteorological conditions, or aircraft operational limitations." Florida where ATC differentiates more based on north-south than east west is the most common traffic example. The other I've encountered was when I flew in the mountain west where I could get a lower "wrong direction" altitude flying a piston single.

Basically we can file any altitude we want, even one below the MEA , and in any direction we want. ATC will clear us based on ATC's rules. But, for planning purposes, absent some kin of operating limitation, it seem silly not not file the altitude we want and hope to actually get by choosing the appropriate direction for our cruise.
 
Larry in TN said:
The hemispheric rule from part 91 does not apply to IFR flights in controlled airspace.

ATC usually uses the same rule, though, but that's on their end, not ours. Florida, for example, is a very big exception where the ATC assigns altitudes based on N/S, not E/W.
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Ok, I did not know that. But it might as well since ATC seems to generally want you a
“at the proper altitude for direction of flight.”
 
luvflyin said:
Depends on what you mean by rule. Yeah, FAR 91 doesn't mandate the E/W thing in Controlled Airspace except when OTP. Then 91.179 says you gotta do what 91.159 says, which is the hemispheric rule. But ATC has rules about assigning altitudes and the FAR has rules about complying with what ATC assigns you. And that's usually going to be the hemispheric thing.
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Yeah, but that's the VFR hemispheric rule for VFR on top. On top we are required to fly the appropriate VFR altitude.
 
You can file what you want in controlled airspace but ATC has their own rules which shutdown the wrong altitude for direction of flight 99% of the time. Anytime I saw a red line under the altitude (wrong altitude direction) on approach I corrected that every time to comply with the hemispheric ATC rule. Are there exceptions? Sure but the controller doesn’t have time to be approving that nonsense on a regular basis.

IMG_8274.jpeg
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
That has not been my experience in 32 years of flying in the flight levels.
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While is is standard that IFR altitudes are assigned by ATC using the hemispheric rule, it is not an FAA regulation. So called "wrong way" altitudes may be filed and in some areas are used regularly by ATC, example in parts of the Florida peninsula since many routes are so close to north/south hemispheric boundaries that small course changes would otherwise cause altitude reassignments. For aircraft flying at the lower levels, it is sometimes advantageous to use "wrong way" altitudes during the winter that avoid icing conditions and I have on occasion used this requesting an even altitude on an east bound route. I have also seen instances of clearances at the very high flight levels above RVSM altitudes that did not comply with the hemispheric rule.

91.179 IFR cruising altitude or flight level.
Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, the following rules apply—
(a) In controlled airspace. Each person operating an aircraft under IFR in level cruising flight in controlled airspace shall maintain the altitude or flight level assigned that aircraft by ATC. However, if the ATC clearance assigns “VFR conditions on-top,” that person shall maintain an altitude or flight level as prescribed by § 91.159.
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John Collins said:
A cruise altitude has to be above the MIA, but you can file for lower, you just won't be cleared at a cruise altitude below the MIA. The MIA can be an MVA, MOCA, MEA or in the case of point to point navigation, at least 1000 feet (2000 feet in designated mountainous areas) above the highest obstacle within +/- 4 NM of the CL of track between the points. Center has MIA charts for their airspace and TRACON has MVA charts for theirs. ATC will keep you legal, regardless of what you file.
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God give me strength….
Nobody is looking for a doctoral dissertation.
 
John Collins said:
While is is standard that IFR altitudes are assigned by ATC using the hemispheric rule, it is not an FAA regulation. So called "wrong way" altitudes may be filed and in some areas are used regularly by ATC, example in parts of the Florida peninsula since many routes are so close to north/south hemispheric boundaries that small course changes would otherwise cause altitude reassignments. For aircraft flying at the lower levels, it is sometimes advantageous to use "wrong way" altitudes during the winter that avoid icing conditions and I have on occasion used this requesting an even altitude on an east bound route. I have also seen instances of clearances at the very high flight levels above RVSM altitudes that did not comply with the hemispheric rule.
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“123AB, (sigh) I need to at # thousand for direction of flight.”

You really like it when the controller makes you look like a rookie?
 
Kritchlow said:
Agreed. May not be a “rule”, but controllers make it so.
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Our Controllers, which art in the Center, Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come,Thy will be done, in the Eastbounds, as in the Wests.
Give us this day our daily Altitude. And forgive us our deviations,
As we forgive you when you have deals with us.
And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from RA's.
For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Some like rote, some like explanation.
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Agreed… and if I asked the question I would prefer the long winded answer.
Point is, I just made a simple statement without asking a question.
 
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