If you can get Flight Following... Do it. (cross from Purple)

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wpierce

Pre-takeoff checklist
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wpierce
Coming across East Tennessee Saturday morning at 9500 feet East bound and talking to Atlante Center, they warn me of an RV Southbound at 9500. Negative contact. ATC is talking to the RV, too, Negative Contact on me. ATC suggests for me to decend 500' and then suggests the RV ascend 500' Right before our paths cross I finally see him but it would have been too late if neither of us were on Flight Following we would have more than likely collided. I thanked ATC for watching out for us and the RV immediately chimed it with "Ditto". I wish we could have bought the man a beer.
cheers.gif



Big Thank you to Atlanta Center.

The lesson for all of you that don't request FF is please use this tool if you are able to. I understand there are areas in the Country that you can't get it, but if you can, please do!

I think Santa is going to bring me a Zaon PCAS? to plug into my 496.


Update from return home tonight...

Would you believe it happened again, this afternoon, on the way home? This time I was 8500 the other aircraft was 8400 indicated but not confirmed (he wasn't on flight following). I quickly went to 8000 and then was able to see him coming, a Mooney, and he would have crossed behind me but it was close.

I think part of the problem, especially in the areas around the Smokeys (it's hazey) on a day like today or yesterday is you just can't see a white airplane above the horizon. We had no problems seeing planes below us but if they were equal to the haze layer out the window it's just about impossible to see them.

Anyway, we had a great visit with the grand kids. Great weekend and great help from Atlanta Center.
 
Been thinking about you, Wayne...wondered if you made it home OK. Glad you and Rebecca had good flights, and a good visit with family. :)
 
If I'm not flying instruments I'm using flight following. There's just no reason not to.
 
timwinters said:
If I'm not flying instruments I'm using flight following. There's just no reason not to.
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Right-on.

I have had a couple of FF assists which I found very useful... one, precisely on my altitude (an east-bound altitude), which would have come very close, indeed.

Of course, that sorta begs the question: why not just IFR, then?

Why not, indeed...
 
It interrupts my MP3 player. I talk to ATC when I need to, and that's pretty much it.
 
EdFred said:
It interrupts my MP3 player. I talk to ATC when I need to, and that's pretty much it.
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We pray for you Ed.:blowingkisses: Mostly, we pray your airspace doesn't cross ours. :smile:
 
EdFred said:
Fly at the correct altitude and you don't have to worry about me.
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How do you figure? VFR cruising altitudes cover "half" the sky. Still plenty of opportunities for a collision there, IMO. See and avoid is the rule, but why not get a little extra help from Flight Following?


Trapper John
 
EdFred said:
Fly at the correct altitude and you don't have to worry about me.
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I beg to differ. I was East bound at 9500 the RV was SouthEast bound at 9500, we could have collided if it wasn't for the intervention of Atlanta Center.
 
SCCutler said:
Of course, that sorta begs the question: why not just IFR, then?

Why not, indeed...
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I can think of several reasons to go VFR with flight following instead of IFR.

1) You're in a /U or /A plane with a VFR-only GPS and want to be able to go direct. Sometimes this isn't an issue, but sometimes it is - especially if there aren't any airways that go roughly along your route of flight.

2) You're in a part of the country where you're certain to get IFR clearances that are annoying. Flying around the PHL and NY Bravos are two examples of this. Flying from Williamsport to White Plains or Bridgeport will cost me an extra 15-20 minutes if I go IFR.

Most of the time I get flight following. To avoid them interrupting my MP3s, I keep the MP3s plugged into my headset with the settings so that it keeps on playing when ATC is talking, and the volume low enough that it doesn't overwhlem ATC. Works fine. I also listen on 121.5. Hear some interesting things on there.
 
Additionally, we should consider that FF is often helpful to IFR traffic & ATC. IDK about other areas, but in SoCal it's almost like they want to talk to everyone. Surly beats playing "dodge the jet".
 
Trapper John said:
How do you figure? VFR cruising altitudes cover "half" the sky. Still plenty of opportunities for a collision there, IMO.
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VFR and IFR altitudes combined cover only a thin slice of the 3D environment.
In addition, you won't find me VFR on the centerline of an airway.

See and avoid is the rule, but why not get a little extra help from Flight Following?
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Talking to someone might help however you can't hit me if I'm not there to run into.
 
This is the one thing that gives me pause on getting a Luscombe 8A as I plan to...tough to find one with a transponder, and I'd like to use flight following.
 
fgcason said:
VFR and IFR altitudes combined cover only a thin slice of the 3D environment.
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True, and I suppose you have to consider altimeter error and pilot skill in maintaing a VFR cruising altitude. But, you can be at a legal VFR cruising altitude, and someone else can be at the same legal VFR cruising altitude on a collision course up to almost head-on.

In addition, you won't find me VFR on the centerline of an airway.
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Yep, my instructor said likewise. Good advice, I think. Besides, if VFR, it's easier to identify the VOR station on the ground as a checkpoint if you're offset a ways from it.

Talking to someone might help however you can't hit me if I'm not there to run into.
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To me, the more eyes the better, so I'll use Flight Watch when it's available.


Trapper John
 
Trapper John said:
True, and I suppose you have to consider altimeter error and pilot skill in maintaing a VFR cruising altitude. But, you can be at a legal VFR cruising altitude, and someone else can be at the same legal VFR cruising altitude on a collision course up to almost head-on.
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True however they still can't hit you if you're not there. It's much much easier to pick a target out visually if it's above or below the horizon line instead of on it.
 
It's a big sky and there's not a lot up there, so chances are you aren't going to hit anybody, even if you come closer than comfort. The fact that it's a 3D environment makes it that much more difficult. Think about it - even when formation flying, how close do you ever get to someone else? Certainly much further away than when you're driving down a busy highway. That said, I can't see why someone would consider it a bad idea to have an extra set of eyes out. You should be scanning the sky just as much with or without.
 
bullwinkle said:
This is the one thing that gives me pause on getting a Luscombe 8A as I plan to...tough to find one with a transponder, and I'd like to use flight following.
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You could always add one yourself. If you don't have an alternator, you can run it off a battery that you recharge at home. Not that unusual for gliders to have that setup...

edit: This discusses low power consumption transponders / battery sizes:
http://www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/transponders.pdf
 
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fgcason said:
True however they still can't hit you if you're not there. It's much much easier to pick a target out visually if it's above or below the horizon line instead of on it.
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But you need relative motion to see traffic, don't you? Do you think you can reliably identify traffic that's coming nearly head-on, and thereby has very little relative motion to pick up on?


Trapper John
 
Trapper John said:
But you need relative motion to see traffic, don't you? Do you think you can reliably identify traffic that's coming nearly head-on, and thereby has very little relative motion to pick up on?
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I've done it. So did the Mooney I was going head on at. We both broke off to the right. It's amazing how well those procedures you're taught as a student work.
 
Trapper John said:
But you need relative motion to see traffic, don't you? Do you think you can reliably identify traffic that's coming nearly head-on, and thereby has very little relative motion to pick up on?
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No. Relative motion is not required to see traffic however that motion REALLY helps a lot though. It's very useful but not mandatory. The horizon line is two contrasting intensities with a possible fixed intensity dot on it. That makes an object on the horizon hard to impossible to see - it's much harder than a bright dot on a dark background or a dark dot on a bright background. Two planes at the same altitude both appear on the horizon line from the other plane's position. Any offset from that horizon line makes both targets easier to spot.
If you're offset vertically by say 132 feet instead of exactly on altitude, it becomes easier to spot objects at the original 0 offset altitude where everyone else is and you also become much harder to hit. They may scare you however they'll go under or over, not through, you. Add in, say, a 2.39 mile horizontal offset from a predictable line on the sectional and the chances of collision drop to near zero.
 
This was my problem Saturday, and part of what compounded that problem was the area we were flying in. The Smokey Mountain range is know for it's haze and I was flying up a valley with that haze on both sides at the horizon line. It makes for a tough view finding a plane on the same level as you are especially if it's the size of an RV and light in color. The Mooney on Sunday was easier as it was against a blue background when I finally saw it... I had descended to where I was now looking slightly up at it.
 
wpierce said:
Right before our paths cross I finally see him but it would have been too late if neither of us were on Flight Following we would have more than likely collided. I thanked ATC for watching out for us and the RV immediately chimed it with "Ditto".
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And that... right there... is why I did flight following for the vast majority of EVERY flight I ever did once I earned my PPSEL.

I've had 2 or 3 convergent course, same altitude situations that I would not have seen until the very last minute, if at all, without ATC. That being said, there have been a time or two I've had stuff missed by them out in the outer rings of class B with 1200 squawks. I will take whatever help I can get.
 
Flying out of KAHN (Atlanta area) going down to Florida this week IFR, we were told that we couldn't get higher because of a 172 1000' above us at 3 miles at 1 o'clock. Once we had visual on him, we could get our requested altitude. Well, we didn't see him at 3 miles. We didn't see him at 1.5 miles and 12 o'clock. It even took us a while to see him at 11 o'clock and 1/2 mile. Only then could we get our climb from 10K to 13K. And it turned out to be company traffic from 1C5 (Chicago area) on his way eventually to the same airport (KFPR) in Florida that we were going to, on the same trip! So yes, having another set of electronically enhanced eyes out there is a Good Thing! Just looking diligently, even when you know where to look for something that you know is there, isn't always enough!
 
A lot of my flying is to the bay area, nor-cal. Despite the hassle of hand-offs every 15 minutes I use flight following EVERY time. There is just too much traffic out there. I can't tell you how many times I have not seen the traffic they have identified, until just before they said "no factor", not to mention their request to maintain "x" altitude or "y" heading for traffic (how would I know to do that?). I think it also makes it easier when they finally hand you off to the tower.
 
Using FF is like asking for permission to drive your car. I fly for freedom and to get away from unnecessary order why pilots fall over themselves to stand in line is beyond me.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Using FF is like asking for permission to drive your car. I fly for freedom and to get away from unnecessary order why pilots fall over themselves to stand in line is beyond me.
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It depends on what you're doing and where you are going, and all pilots should know that and use appropriate tools available to the particular mission.

Traffic Advisories/ Flight Following is another tool.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Using FF is like asking for permission to drive your car. I fly for freedom and to get away from unnecessary order why pilots fall over themselves to stand in line is beyond me.
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Permission to drive your car? Unnecessary order? Stand in line? What have those to do with flight following?
 
roncachamp said:
Permission to drive your car? Unnecessary order? Stand in line? What have those to do with flight following?
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Yep. I've never, ever "waited" for flight following -- ever (by myself or with students), and this includes a variety of busy East Coast airspace.

If you give your info an request, 99.99999% of the time you will hear, "November 1234, Squawk 2329 -- radar contact 3 miles east of XWY, maintain VFR."
 
dmccormack said:
I've never, ever "waited" for flight following
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I have, several times. Been refused a couple of times, too. That being said, I've also had cheerful FF right over the top of LGA and EWR (1500' above the Class Bravo.) You never know unless you ask.
 
I've had to wait for FF and been refused as well. Both around NY and PHL Bravos. You won't always get it, but it is nifty to have on a lot of occasions.

Sometimes I just don't want to talk to people, or I want to talk to the people in the plane and not the people on the radio. Most of the time, though, I'll take the talking to people. It felt pretty odd flying to Oshkosh over Lake Michigan with no flight following and nobody on the radio.
 
roncachamp said:
What did you do while you were waiting for it?
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Kept on flying to my destination. I didn't need it, it was a nice to have, and if I'm going around airspace I always plan assuming that I'm not going to get clearance through it.

In other words, not having it was no big deal.
 
Joe B said:
I have, several times. Been refused a couple of times, too. That being said, I've also had cheerful FF right over the top of LGA and EWR (1500' above the Class Bravo.) You never know unless you ask.
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The only hesititation I've encountered was when it was insanely busy or the student was too long in requesting (lots of umms and ahhs)
 
dmccormack said:
Hunh? Did I not remember some tiny insignificant detail or what?
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Probably something stupid like VFR squawks don't begin with a 2. I know around here all the VFR squawks I get start with 4.

Nope, caught it...
Transponder codes are 0000-7777, you had a 9
 
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