If the NDB ain't broke, don't nix it!

ebykowsky

ebykowsky

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It seems that every time I get a briefing for a flight, the briefer gives me some notice about an NDB being recently decommissioned. Why in the world is this? I saw an earlier thread on the NDB approach to an instrument landing beinng slowly phased out, and can understand why you instrument pilots might hate flying these approaches, but I've found in my 40 short hours that the ADF is a really useful tool, especially since not every plane has a GPS and handheld ones often run out of batteries or lose reception. How hard is it for the FAA to keep these stations operational? I realize that some break and simply aren't fixed, which I can understand, but why get rid of a perfectly good aid to navigation? It think we should have every aid possible at our disposal for safe conduct of the flight, especially when it seems to cost very little to just broadcast a continuous AM signal, and VORs can be few and far between.
Just my $0.02
 
ebykowsky said:
It seems that every time I get a briefing for a flight, the briefer gives me some notice about an NDB being recently decommissioned. Why in the world is this? I saw an earlier thread on the NDB approach to an instrument landing beinng slowly phased out, and can understand why you instrument pilots might hate flying these approaches, but I've found in my 40 short hours that the ADF is a really useful tool, especially since not every plane has a GPS and handheld ones often run out of batteries or lose reception. How hard is it for the FAA to keep these stations operational? I realize that some break and simply aren't fixed, which I can understand, but why get rid of a perfectly good aid to navigation? It think we should have every aid possible at our disposal for safe conduct of the flight, especially when it seems to cost very little to just broadcast a continuous AM signal, and VORs can be few and far between.
Click to expand...

Sometimes it's just impossible for the FAA to keep them operational, such as when they're owned by the state or county as many of them are.
 
NDB and ADF are two separate navigation devices. Which one are we discussing?
 
NDB is on the ground.
ADF is on the panel.
They are not separate as neither is of much use without the other.
 
ebykowsky said:
It seems that every time I get a briefing for a flight, the briefer gives me some notice about an NDB being recently decommissioned. Why in the world is this? I saw an earlier thread on the NDB approach to an instrument landing beinng slowly phased out, and can understand why you instrument pilots might hate flying these approaches, but I've found in my 40 short hours that the ADF is a really useful tool, especially since not every plane has a GPS and handheld ones often run out of batteries or lose reception. How hard is it for the FAA to keep these stations operational? I realize that some break and simply aren't fixed, which I can understand, but why get rid of a perfectly good aid to navigation? It think we should have every aid possible at our disposal for safe conduct of the flight, especially when it seems to cost very little to just broadcast a continuous AM signal, and VORs can be few and far between.
Just my $0.02
Click to expand...
The cost to maintain and repair them is very high. It doesn't make sense to continue to do that when there are better navigation tools available. Few aircraft and fewer pilots are able to use an ADF at this point with GPS handhelds doing a much better job and they are inexpensive at this point and for instrument work I know tHere are those who might argue but I would rather fly with a handheld in actual than use an ADF .
 
NDB's are easy for the pilot to use (except those who choose to make then difficult) and are comparitively cheap and easy to maintain vs a VOR. That said, we are a bankrupt nation and we can't keep every redundant navaid forever. Since NDB's don't serve an enroute function anymore it makes sense for them to attrition.
 
murphey said:
NDB and ADF are two separate navigation devices. Which one are we discussing?
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure I used NDB and ADF correctly. I'm talking about the beacons on the ground being shut down--I couldn't care less what you do with your own instrument panel's ADF.

And how much does it really cost to keep these running? I'd think all it takes would be a constant electrical current.
 
ebykowsky said:
It seems that every time I get a briefing for a flight, the briefer gives me some notice about an NDB being recently decommissioned. Why in the world is this? I saw an earlier thread on the NDB approach to an instrument landing beinng slowly phased out, and can understand why you instrument pilots might hate flying these approaches, but I've found in my 40 short hours that the ADF is a really useful tool, especially since not every plane has a GPS and handheld ones often run out of batteries or lose reception. How hard is it for the FAA to keep these stations operational? I realize that some break and simply aren't fixed, which I can understand, but why get rid of a perfectly good aid to navigation? It think we should have every aid possible at our disposal for safe conduct of the flight, especially when it seems to cost very little to just broadcast a continuous AM signal, and VORs can be few and far between.
Just my $0.02
Click to expand...


It would be cheaper to buy every pilot a GPS.

Use the remote antenna if you are having reception issues. Forget the NDB it is being phased out.
 
ebykowsky said:
And how much does it really cost to keep these running? I'd think all it takes would be a constant electrical current.
Click to expand...

NDB's are older units. They require alignments on a routine basis plus the parts are now getting harder to get due to the age of the transmitters. As with most electronics as components age they deteriorate.
 
I can fly an NDB approach to minimums. I can navagate across the country with them. But so what? They are crude and better technology exists. Its not the money to run them that adds up, it's the money to maintain a certified station. The electricity running through it is maybe half of one percent the cost of the navaid.

I say good riddance to NDBs. Embrace your new GPS overlord.


(that last sentence was a joke)
 
RotorAndWing said:
NDB's are older units. They require alignments on a routine basis plus the parts are now getting harder to get due to the age of the transmitters. As with most electronics as components age they deteriorate.
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Given the non-directional nature of an NDB, what's there to align?
 
Alright, didn't know everyone was against (well, not really against but you get it) the NDB. Guess I'll have to say goodbye to this primitive technology before I even get fully acquainted, and explain to my kids one day what an ADF is when they see one in a museum. At least I can still get Glenn and Rush over my ADF!
 
And sometimes it is just the 14 year old kid who drives the mower who bowls over one of the wooden towers that hold the wire :frown3:

!HON 09/103 MDS NAV NDB OTS
 
roncachamp said:
Given the non-directional nature of an NDB, what's there to align?
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Frequency alignment within the unit. As resistors, capacitors and other components age the tolerances begin to "drift". Some of these are adjustable while some require replacing the component with a new one within tolerance.
 
ebykowsky said:
Guess I'll have to say goodbye to this primitive technology before I even get fully acquainted, and explain to my kids one day what an ADF is when they see one in a museum.
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Same thing can be said of the old A N ranges. You DO know what they are, don't you? And also about Loran, although it was still useful. Technology gets replaced by newer technology.
 
ebykowsky said:
Alright, didn't know everyone was against (well, not really against but you get it) the NDB. Guess I'll have to say goodbye to this primitive technology before I even get fully acquainted, and explain to my kids one day what an ADF is when they see one in a museum. At least I can still get Glenn and Rush over my ADF!
Click to expand...

Don't worry. Some pilots had to explain to their kids the 'joy of warping their wings with their hips' to turn. We'll get through this together and be okay...I promise.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Same thing can be said of the old A N ranges. You DO know what they are, don't you? And also about Loran, although it was still useful. Technology gets replaced by newer technology.
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No idea what the A N range is, but I HATE Loran. Never used one in my life, but my precalc teacher had some kind of Loran fetish. "Find where the aircraft is located when the stations are X nm apart and the vessel is on the hyperbolic function XXXXX, 50nm from this station and 20 from the second." :mad2:
 
A N range was before my time, but I know a few pilots who flew them and have talked to them about it. Better than nothing, but not by a lot :). Loran, not so much. I had a Loran in my first airplane, and it was great. Very similar to GPS as far as operation. GPS is great also. I have an ADF in my airplane and like it also. I guess I am a masochist :).
 
Greg Bockelman said:
How can you hate something you have never used? Actual operation wasn't all that much different than an early model GPS.
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Haha, don't really hate the unit, just the fact they (along with hyperbolic functions) exist at all in math. From the pilot side, I'm sure they're easy and convenient. From a math student's side, they're a living hell. Pretty cool concept though.
 
ebykowsky said:
Haha, don't really hate the unit, just the fact they (along with hyperbolic functions) exist at all in math. From the pilot side, I'm sure they're easy and convenient. From a math student's side, they're a living hell. Pretty cool concept though.
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You're thinking of the old loran units that required math and a table book to fix the position.

Loran's later on had data bases that worked very similar to a GPS.

If you hate loran you would have loathed INS and Omega as well. :rolleyes:

Technology changes, either adapt or go the way of the dinosaur.
 
Todd Copeland said:
The cost to maintain and repair them is very high. It doesn't make sense to continue to do that when there are better navigation tools available. Few aircraft and fewer pilots are able to use an ADF at this point with GPS handhelds doing a much better job and they are inexpensive at this point and for instrument work I know tHere are those who might argue but I would rather fly with a handheld in actual than use an ADF .
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You can't shoot an IFR approach on a handheld GPS, you can on an ADF.
 
ebykowsky said:
Haha, don't really hate the unit, just the fact they (along with hyperbolic functions) exist at all in math. From the pilot side, I'm sure they're easy and convenient. From a math student's side, they're a living hell. Pretty cool concept though.
Click to expand...

Same functions used for GPS, just in 3D.
 
ebykowsky said:
Haha, don't really hate the unit, just the fact they (along with hyperbolic functions) exist at all in math. From the pilot side, I'm sure they're easy and convenient. From a math student's side, they're a living hell. Pretty cool concept though.
Click to expand...

You hate your math teacher, not LORAN.
 
RotorAndWing said:
You're thinking of the old loran units that required math and a table book to fix the position.

Loran's later on had data bases that worked very similar to a GPS.

If you hate loran you would have loathed INS and Omega as well. :rolleyes:

Technology changes, either adapt or go the way of the dinosaur.
Click to expand...

No, he wasn't using an actual LORAN unit, but a sadistic math teacher using LORAN as an example of how to do stuff.
 
Don't forget that the NDB approaches must be flightchecked occasionally. With all the new GPS and RNP approaches added, reducing the number of NDB approaches will reduce the demand on the limited FAA resources available for flight checks.

My CFII used to use the NDB to torture me during IPC and BFRs. I won't miss NDBs.
 
Bob Noel said:
My CFII used to use the NDB to torture me during IPC and BFRs. I won't miss NDBs.
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an NDB approach only requires 2 basic skills: 1) having a vague idea where you are, and 2) being able to hold a constant heading. One might ask if those skills aren't also useful to other phases of flight.
 
JHW said:
an NDB approach only requires 2 basic skills: 1) having a vague idea where you are, and 2) being able to hold a constant heading. One might ask if those skills aren't also useful to other phases of flight.
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3) adjusting for crosswind - more noticable in my speedy cheroke 140.

4) identifying the difference between wind changes and simple ADF "stability"

Note that my CFII was not never content to just do a simple NDB approach, I could count on multiple instruments failures as well.
 
JHW said:
an NDB approach only requires 2 basic skills: 1) having a vague idea where you are, and 2) being able to hold a constant heading. One might ask if those skills aren't also useful to other phases of flight.
Click to expand...

Truth right there... I never figured out what the big deal was, it's the simplest nav system of all to use, and probably the most reliable.
 
Aren't they still listing AM broadcast stations in the flight supplements? Your ADF will receive those from hundreds of miles away. No good for approaches, though.

I got my IFR ticket before GPS was making stuff easier. Got very good at NDB approaches.

Dan
 
A good friend of mine who is a DE at a puppy mill sums it up best. He says that puppies who were weaned in the age of GPS are not capable of mastering the "non-precision" part of a non-precision approach.
 
Geico266 said:
It would be cheaper to buy every pilot a GPS.
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You have a source for that cost estimate?

(NDBs are cheap to operate. Not so cheap to repair depending on brand and parts availability. This is why they're still popular in places that have little money.)
 
A good friend of mine who is a DE at a puppy mill sums it up best. He says that puppies who were weaned in the age of GPS are not capable of mastering the "non-precision" part of a non-precision approach.
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And I don't know about you guys, but I have never had an ADF failure. I have had my handheld GPS go blank or loose signal once in a while, and I have had numerous instances of laptop computers and desktop computers locking up or going on the fritz at inconvenient times. That is my main concern about relying solely on an IFR GPS. They are very complicated pieces of equipment, and complication often creates a lot more ways to fail or have problems.
 
somorris said:
And I don't know about you guys, but I have never had an ADF failure. I have had my handheld GPS go blank or loose signal once in a while, and I have had numerous instances of laptop computers and desktop computers locking up or going on the fritz at inconvenient times. That is my main concern about relying solely on an IFR GPS. They are very complicated pieces of equipment, and complication often creates a lot more ways to fail or have problems.
Click to expand...

My handheld Garmin aviation GPS's (five Garmin & one Lowrance models over the years) have been wired to the aircraft's power, have batteries for backup, and use external antenna's. The last "failure", which was of short duration, was back in 94'.
It's been quite the same, for many friends & acquaintances of mine.

BTW-- I always carry a backup GPS

L.Adamson
 
How about a comparison of NDB related "crashes" involving commercial airlines, military, and GA..........versus an airplane using a descent sized color moving map GPS system with terrain and obstacle data. Synthetic vision & audio warnings are even better.

Since so many NDB related accident's have occurred, over many years; perhaps we'll have to project expected GPS related accidents into the future. I'm a 100% confidant, that the GPS statistics won't come anywhere close, to those for the outdated NDB.

L.Adamson
 
I have no argument at all that GPS is better than NDB. As long as everything keeps working as designed, it's great. I love it.
 
L.Adamson said:
How about a comparison of NDB related "crashes" involving commercial airlines, military, and GA..........versus an airplane using a descent sized color moving map GPS system with terrain and obstacle data. Synthetic vision & audio warnings are even better.
Click to expand...

Uh-oh I just hope this doesn't turn into another Magenta Line of Death thread...
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Uh-oh I just hope this doesn't turn into another Magenta Line of Death thread...
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Never heard the term until yesterday. Quite frankly, I think the Death part is about the most inept description, that I've heard.

Yes, they're will always be a few idiots who will simply & blindly follow a magenta line. However, since the line became magenta colored.........it's a bit tougher to ignore warnings that will most likely come with it.

If some of you.............get "giggles" out of the term "Magenta Line of Death", then yes, I don't care to share the company.

L.Adamson

addition.

Perhaps I take this more seriously, than some on this forum. I've had a four engine cargo jet smash into the mountain above my home. Two very good friends died in a CFIT accident. Just a few years back, a fire bomber fragmented in a CFIT on the opposite side of the peak from where I now live. They even had a magenta line with red warnings. But the guy who saw it, was afraid to question the Capt. who was giving verbal navigation commands. Used correctly, the "magenta line" is any thing but a line of death. However, if some think it's joke time............
 
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