Icon A5.. another crash Jul 27

W...T....F....

Does it seem REALLY odd to anyone else that they’d recommend “immediate roll and pull” to “stall horn”!? To get out of a box canyon!!!

Wow.... am I being too critical here? I just cannot imagine any other manufacturer advocating this.
 
I guess eventually all their employees will die in accidents and the problem will solve itself.
 
W...T....F....

Does it seem REALLY odd to anyone else that they’d recommend “immediate roll and pull” to “stall horn”!? To get out of a box canyon!!!

Wow.... am I being too critical here? I just cannot imagine any other manufacturer advocating this.

That's the high-performance canyon turn. The equivalent of the 180 degree "impossible turn" back to the runway.

Works in theory, but most of the pilot bell curve is unlikely to pull it off under pressure when needed.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...light-training-magazine/technique-canyon-turn

1802f_technique_16x9.jpg
 
Unfortunately the usual scenario is not that you turn into a canyon and immediately realize "Oh my, that's a box canyon! I better turn around right now." The usual scenario is that you slowly realize you are at max power approaching stall and not keeping up with the rising terrain. You no longer have the pitch up, bank and yank option. You may already be in a state where you can't turn at all. Canyon and riverbed training needs to emphasize how you reconnoiter this run before you ever go in there.
 
Interestingly, while making the last post, I saw Icon has added special 300' and 100' "Soft Deck" maneuvering guidelines after their own box-canyon accident.

If this is what they train to, it looks like our subject may have performed items 1-3 per Icon's guidelines before he ran out of options and performance.

Unfortunately, there is no airspeed consideration here.

https://iconaircraft.com/flight-center/guidelines/low-altitude

Box-Canyon Reversal (Emergency Terrain Escape)
There are dedicated books on mountain flying and this paragraph is not a substitute for advanced study and training should one choose to fly low in mountainous terrain. The term "box canyon" is frequently used to describe a situation where a pilot has inadvertently flown into narrowing, confined, and often rapidly rising terrain where the aircraft may not be capable of climbing over that terrain. Step one is to avoid these situations by appropriate knowledge and briefing of the areas being flown and to always preserve enough lateral turning room to easily reverse course if needed. However, should the conditions ever arise where a pilot is suddenly faced with the need for an immediate reversal of course in a box-canyon scenario, the following technique is recommended in the A5 to minimize the turn radius while simultaneously preserving altitude:

Box-Canyon Reversal:

  1. Power – Full
  2. Pitch – slightly up (~5-10° above horizon)
  3. Immediately roll and pull (in most open direction)
  4. AOA – pull mid yellow (or stall horn)
  5. Keep nose above horizon (out of buffet)


Note: In no-wind conditions and properly flown, this maneuver can reverse the A5 direction at gross weight and at sea-level conditions in approximately 500' diameter. However, ICON recommends maintaining at least 1000' of lateral turning room to account for human error. Further, at high density altitudes and with adverse wind conditions, turn radius increases significantly. Bottom line: there are no absolutes. As PIC, you must always use your best judgement and immediately reverse course and exit any area where you are in doubt.
On their website they basically advocate that air speed and all other considerations are unimportant as you just have to fly by the angle of attack indicator.. so this doesn't surprise me

Screenshot_20190731-104512.png
 
On their website they basically advocate that air speed and all other considerations are unimportant as you just have to fly by the angle of attack indicator.. so this doesn't surprise me
What you quoted from Icon does not say what you posted. There is nothing about the importance of other indications. The excerpt from Icon regarding an AOA indicator is essentially correct, although I might quibble with some of the terminology. Have you ever flown an airplane with an AOA indicator or been trained in the use of same? I have gathered from your posts that you *really* want Icon to be found responsible for this crash, but I think you're grasping at anything you think might support your position, even if it doesn't.

Before the accusations start flying, I have no affiliation with Icon in any way, nor am I an interested party, potential customer, or fan of the airplane or company.

Nauga,
E-bracketed
 
On their website they basically advocate that air speed and all other considerations are unimportant as you just have to fly by the angle of attack indicator.. so this doesn't surprise me
The same sort of nonsense that antiskid braking promises. Sooner or later you get into a situation where the technology can't save you. There is NO substitute for proper and adquate training.
 
The same sort of nonsense that antiskid braking promises. Sooner or later you get into a situation where the technology can't save you. There is NO substitute for proper and adquate training.

The concept is risk homeostasis. If you have ABS or AWD, there’s a tendency to drive a little faster, or go down trails you otherwise wouldn’t, eating into the safety edge they normally provide.

To that extent, I can see how an AOA indicator might encourage one to operate closer to the edge as well. But as you say, proper and adequate training should take care of that.
 
Does it seem REALLY odd to anyone else that they’d recommend “immediate roll and pull” to “stall horn”!? To get out of a box canyon!!!
What would you suggest instead? Sounds fine to me, at least according to my limited experience. For example, I had to make impossible turns from 300' in a glider for the checkride. The optimum way to do it is to bank 45' and pull about 1.4 g steady, or actually a little more at first in order to slow down and sharpen the turn. Depending on how early the warning is set, it may be cover the speed of maximum coefficient of lift.
 
To that extent, I can see how an AOA indicator might encourage one to operate closer to the edge as well.
Argumentum ad absurdum: Knowing your stall speed encourages operating closer to the edge!

One should understand the application and limitations of any instrument they're trusting their life to.

Nauga,
who doesn't follow blindly
 
Argumentum ad absurdum: Knowing your stall speed encourages operating closer to the edge!

One should understand the application and limitations of any instrument they're trusting their life to.

Nauga,
who doesn't follow blindly

Stall speed, as published and understood by way too many pilots, is at 1g. Every maneuver except a pushover raises that stall speed, so we keep seeing accidents involving accelerated stalls when some dude buzzes someone and pulls up hard and spins into the ground in a flash. As a guest speaker in groundschools I was amazed at the ignorance of this stuff. Even some instructors don't get it. And no AOA indicator will alert the pilot in time in situations like that.
 
Stall speed, as published and understood by way too many pilots, is at 1g. Every maneuver except a pushover raises that stall speed, so we keep seeing accidents involving accelerated stalls...
The stall AOA, however, does not change, so proper use of a good AOA indicator will provide better indications of an impending stall, accelerated or otherwise.

Nauga,
who is not just a customer...
 
he excerpt from Icon regarding an AOA indicator is essentially correct, although I might quibble with some of the terminology.
But that's exactly my point (if perhaps poorly illustrated) that the terminology states "how much more it's possible to ask of the airplane regardless of [basically everything else]" - objectively speaking that's strictly true.. but when you combine it with shots of dudes thinking they're Maverick flying through canyons and waterways 100-500 ft off the deck it's an invitation to keep that AoA pegged. In my (not so humble) opinion.. I mean, why would you not? Imagine if BMW advertised that in their marketing "our in dash G meters tell the driver just how much harder they can push the turn when cornering on and merging onto that pesky highway" (strictly, that's true, but you don't see that kind of advertising for obvious reasons. Cars that have g meters are generally driven by experts on closed courses)

Have you ever flown an airplane with an AOA indicator or been trained in the use of same?
Yes. In many ways it is the single most important "how well is my airfoil working" instrument and should be educated to more people in primary training. Many people's rote memorization of approach speeds, stall speeds, etc. works well enough but isn't actually speaking to the airfoil itself. Later generation Cirrus have them on the PFD and watching the AoA change during turns, etc., is enlightening

I get exasperated when my situation is exacerbated
Do you get exasperated in spite of the exacerbation, or despite it?

One should understand the application and limitations of any instrument they're trusting their life to
I totally agree, I think it's that "limitations" part that's missing. It's not just their site though, it's what you see in the non aviation magazines and the whole image they're selling that's worrisome. They're selling a limitless fun toy, that, like a jetski, generally is "safe" since you'll just end up wet in the water /S

Broken out as individual data points everything about Icon can be rationalized away. But when you look at the big picture and house of cards that's built it should come as no surprise to anyone that these accidents happen, and aside from the fuel starvation incident, all follow a very similar pattern of low altitude maneuvering incidents. With a parachute, AoA, strong stall/spin resistance, amphib capabilities, this should be the safest plane out there.. these dumb accidents show a deficiency in the training at the very least. When we saw the rash of Cirrus accidents they didn't all follow a similar theme, but resulted from people not understanding the limits of what was supposed to be a very safe airplane and not using the chute. With the overhaul in training the plane has become of the safest and still continues to sell, the added training didn't turn buyers off, as I doubt it would not turn off Icon buyers either. The plane is cool enough by itself.. it doesn't need to have the "watch how many Jager shots I can do at the bar with my new haircut for my Tinder date" branding

-the most agreement we've (possibly) been in this thread?
 
@Tantalum . I think you are taking this a little too personally. While I understand what you are saying, this is not a traveling plane. True, we do not want to see crashes of any planes, but this one is more akin to buying a motorcycle or a jetski(as commonly compare to). Either of these activities are considerably more dangerous than compatible sensible travel options(a car and a large boat). You definitely see sport bikes advertised in a similar way and nobody is bothered by it much. For what it is, it's probably a pretty safe plane.

Marketing is there to sell it. Normal people can separate reality and marketing. Normal people probably ask someone with some knowledge before buying any airplane. If they don't, well the Darwin rule applies. This is no different than someone going out and buying Hayabusa or R1 and playing out their inner Valentino Rossi. Often with a freshly printed MC license.
 
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In addition, one can probably take exception with ANY small piston plane advertisement in the past, well, forever. I haven't checked, but i suspect you will be hard pressed to find a manufacturer explaining in their ads how people should really think twice before taking their friends and family on a trip in a small plane vs a much safer car or an airliner. All they seem to want to do is describe how much freedom you have with your new toy and how safe it is because it has this and that gadget.
 
Marketing is there to sell it. Normal people can separate reality and marketing. Normal people probably ask someone with some knowledge before buying any airplane. If they don't, well the Darwin rule applies. This is no different than someone going out and buying Hayabusa or R1 and playing out their inner Valentino Rossi. Often with a freshly printed MC license.

Normal people shouldn't have to separate marketing and reality when it come to devices that can so easily kill. And Normal aircraft purchasers have pilot licenses and at least a bit of experience and have been in it long enough to know that dorking around at low speed and/or low level is foolish.
 
I think you are taking this a little too personally
It's a small world GA and it's getting smaller. As it is people see GA as either dangerous, or something only the rich can do. Icon basically takes all these common perception vices of flying and throws them into the lime light. It's such a cool plane otherwise, it's a shame

So I do take it a little personally since ultimately we are all impacted by the perception of the public on GA. Sky diving has its risks, as does paragliding, snowboarding, etc., but you don't see these other sports and hobbies outright advocating reckless behavior. Mammoth mountain will have shots of some sick skiing, but the dude's wearing a helmet and obviously an expert.. they're not out there saying anybody can come ride their double blacks because of some superior ski tech or something.. and to the contrary there are often a litany of warnings about the relative skill level needed for hobby X.

As far as normal people and separating marketing from reality, I think you might be giving the average consumer more credit then its due. If something is sold as a toy, that's how it will be used. Motorcycles are rarely marketed in a reckless fashion, nor are cars, guns, ski resorts, etc. as pointed out above. People understand what these different hobbies give them from a sense of visceral pleasure, it doesn't need to be thrown in their face

But that's my opinion, and it's not even worth $0.02 since you got it for free!

Cheers
 
Here are some TV ads for you for different vehicles

BMW:

Hayabusa:

a compilation of reckless driving in ads:
 
and another one from BMW, yeah it's from the movie, but seems pretty reckless to me

 
Normal people shouldn't have to separate marketing and reality when it come to devices that can so easily kill. And Normal aircraft purchasers have pilot licenses and at least a bit of experience and have been in it long enough to know that dorking around at low speed and/or low level is foolish.

i'm pretty sure you need a license to operate Icon A5. If that training is insufficient then it is a regulation issue. As far as low level stuff. This is pretty much the purpose of the plane. And this is how they market it. It's not my cup of tea, obviously not yours. Some people like this stuff. They are willing to accept high level of risk to do it. Much like many other sports including regular GA which carries a significantly increased risk over most other forms of transportation. With license and training.

Seems like the only real way to keep everyone safe is to ban all this stuff.
 
In addition, one can probably take exception with ANY small piston plane advertisement in the past, well, forever. I haven't checked, but i suspect you will be hard pressed to find a manufacturer explaining in their ads how people should really think twice before taking their friends and family on a trip in a small plane vs a much safer car or an airliner. All they seem to want to do is describe how much freedom you have with your new toy and how safe it is because it has this and that gadget.

Normal people shouldn't have to separate marketing and reality when it come to devices that can so easily kill. And Normal aircraft purchasers have pilot licenses and at least a bit of experience and have been in it long enough to know that dorking around at low speed and/or low level is foolish.

And Cessna doesn’t have Land-O-Matic landing gear in real life. I’m so mad. Made me work way too hard. Their marketers lied!
 
... seriously, this is no different than a motorcycle world. You can get a license in as little as 2 days of riding(that's an official course) and then go play with 200mph motorcycles on public highways
 
... seriously, this is no different than a motorcycle world. You can get a license in as little as 2 days of riding(that's an official course) and then go play with 200mph motorcycles on public highways


Sounds legit to me.....

giphy.gif
 
On their website they basically advocate that air speed and all other considerations are unimportant as you just have to fly by the angle of attack indicator.. so this doesn't surprise me

View attachment 76465

Not arguing with you dude. Just quoting this post to set up my question. Quick everybody, no looking it up, things are happening fast. What's the Stall Speed of your plane at 45 degrees bank?
 
And Cessna doesn’t have Land-O-Matic landing gear in real life. I’m so mad. Made me work way too hard. Their marketers lied!

:D

But I don't think the spring leaf gear was the entire source of Land-O-Matic. It was the tricycle gear that was so easy to land, compared to the 170 that preceded the 172. You actually had to be a pilot to fly a taildragger:popcorn:
 
Not arguing with you dude. Just quoting this post to set up my question. Quick everybody, no looking it up, things are happening fast. What's the Stall Speed of your plane at 45 degrees bank?
Square root of the load factor at 45° (1.41) times the stall speed.
 
That's the formula. Now answer the question. It will contain the either the word knots or mph
My little Jodel stalls at 40 MPH, so in a 45° bank it will stall at 47.5 MPH.

In a 3G pullup it would stall at 69.3 MPH, which is where too many guys get into trouble. An airplane with a Vs of 55 kt would stall at over 95 kt in that scenario.
 
Too much being made of Icon’s marketing tactics, they are no worse than most else out there. Plus this particular mishap did not involve hotdogging or anything of the sort. It was a miscalculation, a common human error that does not associate itself particularly to the Icon A5. Could happen to anyone in any airplane and is more likely on water or other uncontrolled area operations. It was hot, gusty and the aircraft was loaded. Maybe that takeoff run had worked before but didn’t cut it this time. Maybe water got in through the intake, it was pretty choppy. We just don’t know everything at this point.
 
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