I TAKE IT PERSONALLY

Oh, great! Just what this thread needs ... more loose tools. :rolleyes:
 
Was it PPRUNE that had the "punch a grumpy" thread?
 
SCCutler said:
Was it PPRUNE that had the "punch a grumpy" thread?
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I remember a thread on 'berthing a whale' while diving on Rec.Scuba...:rofl:

BTW, I believe there may have been a thread or two on that subject here too.:lol:
 
skidoo said:
How about some programming such as this:

For each post that is made, every member has ONE vote, when viewing that post, towards if that post is offensive, insulting, or whatever rule the mods decide to track. Then, that vote sets an offensive or insulting, etc... posts counter under the members number of posts count.


So, a member could end up with 5 total posts and a 5000 count of insults, or a member could end up with 5000 total posts with zero count of insults. It would quickly show to all members and more importantly the member being rude the feedback that a few or many others don't approve.

Then, you could set criteria such as after 25 or 50 initial posts or whatever the mods decide, if the number of insulting votes exceed say 2 times or 5 times or 50 times the number of posts, then you would automatically be entered into a vote off the island thread or whatever action the admins deem appropriate.

I could see how a ****ing contest could result in a vote back and forth, but since each could only get one vote,the results would likely be small when compared to unbiased viewers who decide to vote. So, a true insult would likely result in a minimum of say 50 votes for just one post. So, having a few votes against you should indicate no big deal. But, if one has a very high number of votes, especially in comparison to the number of total posts since starting such a program, then that could indicate a problem member.

One neat thing about such a program is that it ensures that any mod or admin is not taking any biased action against any member.

Of course, it would be up to the admins to assess the statistics and as time goes on as statistics are collected, the mods may want to adjust the math and formulas.
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The problem is that post count has almost no correlation to one's likelihood to not burn a thread. Actually, by my observation, as often as not, it has an inverse relationship. There are many people on this board that have thousands and thousands of posts and less than 5% of them are outside of the spin zone. Those people don't want to talk flying as much as they want to fight with each other on the internet. The top posters are posting a lot because they like their own opinions and think that everybody else needs to hear them.
 
jason said:
The problem is that post count has almost no correlation to one's likelihood to not burn a thread. Actually, by my observation, as often as not, it has an inverse relationship. There are many people on this board that have thousands and thousands of posts and less than 5% of them are outside of the spin zone. Those people don't want to talk flying as much as they want to fight with each other on the internet. The top posters are posting a lot because they like their own opinions and think that everybody else needs to hear them.
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Got it!

And I could see such posters scream the loudest against any such change.

Unfortunately, I have seen constructive threads die because what I perceive as lack input from those with opinions that differ from a strong willed poster. One, may have a valid and constructive opinion, but chooses to stay silent because, to him or her, it is not worth the abuse expected.

Oh well, unless the admins desire such an improvement, that is just the way it is... I thought I saw such a desire, so I just threw out an idea to chew on.

I don't particularly care one way or another. One can certainly learn a lot here, but there are plenty of other ways to advance ones knowledge and skills as well.
 
Personally I love the "This place should be the way I want it" attitude while creating work for others. Anyone of y'all is welcome to do as Chuck did and build a board the way you want it to be.

BTW, most all serious flying questions are correctly answered in the first 3 posts, thread drift typically starts after the correct answers and useful discussion is already onscreen.
 
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Henning said:
Personally I love the "This place should be the way I want it" attitude while creating work for others American Attitude. Anyone of y'all is welcome to do as Chuck did and build a board the way you want it to be.

BTW, most all serious flying questions are correctly answered in the first 3 posts, thread drift typically starts after the correct answers and useful discussion is already onscreen.
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There, FTFY
 
There seems to be a loss of the attitude 'don't look a gift horse in the mouth' going on.
 
One board I knew of created a FAQ and actively killed threads on anything already published in the FAQ.

It was an amazing reference document, but human interaction was very weak there.

Sadly, most of the FAR/AIM questions could be tossed into such a document and that'd be the end of the flaming. Publish the counter-views and let folks read and decide on their own...

It also required an amazing amount of work on one guy's part to organize and update the FAQ.
 
denverpilot said:
One board I knew of created a FAQ and actively killed threads on anything already published in the FAQ.

It was an amazing reference document, but human interaction was very weak there.

Sadly, most of the FAR/AIM questions could be tossed into such a document and that'd be the end of the flaming. Publish the counter-views and let folks read and decide on their own...

It also required an amazing amount of work on one guy's part to organize and update the FAQ.
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That would be the demise of PoA as stated above
 
Sometimes I get fed up with some of the people here, and when I do I take a vacation. Then I come back and mix it up some more. I recommend that course if someone is getting stressed. Just take some time off and come back later when you feel better. It works for me.
 
AuntPeggy said:
It has happened to me several times on this board. The first time it happened was when I opened my first thread. Just dipping a toe into the water, so to speak. Now it has happened again.

I opened a thread about a maintenance matter. Several posts addressed the issue. Then someone said something that another decided to nitpick and then the entire thread devolved into a psssing match.

A gentle reminder to keep it civil went unheeded. An attempt to bring the thread back to the original topic went unheeded.

*MY* THREAD WAS LOCKED. I TAKE IT PERSONALLY.
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I've read this entire thread and among other things found little of substance (with a few exceptions) addressing Aunt Peggy's stated issues so I thought I'd add a few of my own thoughts on the matter(s).

As I see it the relevant issues are:

1) Thread drift.
2) Nitpicking.
3) Pointless arguments (e.g. urination distance competition)
4) Abusive posts, name calling, personal attacks, etc.
5) Thread locking as a result of #4
6) Effects of above on sensitive members, especially newbies.

I'm pretty certain that #1 is inevitable in that any marginally or more effective deterrents are worse than the problem they attempt to cure. I suspect that throttling issues 2-4 would make #1 significantly more tolerable to most.

Nitpicking by itself can be humorous and easily tolerated IMO, at least until it becomes a major portion of the recent thread content. Solutions to the nitpicking are unlikely given that one poster's nit may be another's relevant major concern and/or pet peeve and I can't imagine any way for moderators to draw a line betwixt the two.

Pointless arguments are pretty much as difficult to eliminate as nitpicking and for mostly similar reasons.

Much of #4 is already prohibited by forum rules but IME the moderators could be a bit more strict about that issue. OTOH, given that (AFaIK) the moderator's choices are pretty much limited to thread closure which (see #5 above) tends to punish the innocent along with the guilty making it a difficult sword to wield.

#6 is the most serious issue IMO. A very big part of the beneficial aspect of this and similar forums is the diverse and vast resource is provides to both all ranges of pilots or potential pilots. I believe that anything that detracts from that and/or discourages participation from participants seeking answers, knowledge, enlightenment, etc. should probably be thwarted as much as possible even if such efforts threaten "free speech" and to be honest if said enforcement turns away some who have a taste for pot-stirring or chest beating I can live with that.

If you've read this far you've probably noticed that I haven't offered any solutions. That's partly because I think that WRT #1-3 and the existing mechanisms for #4-5, there really aren't any viable options beyond helping the "innocent victims" come to grips with the fact that collateral damage inflicted on them is both unavoidable and not to be taken personally. As to #6 if I have any ideas I'll send them on to Jesse as requested rather than post them here since this isn't a democratic forum where the "people" get to directly choose the moderator's methods.
 
gismo said:
I've read this entire thread and among other things found little of substance (with a few exceptions) addressing Aunt Peggy's stated issues so I thought I'd add a few of my own thoughts on the matter(s).

As I see it the relevant issues are:

1) Thread drift.
2) Nitpicking.
3) Pointless arguments (e.g. urination distance competition)
4) Abusive posts, name calling, personal attacks, etc.
5) Thread locking as a result of #4
6) Effects of above on sensitive members, especially newbies.

I'm pretty certain that #1 is inevitable in that any marginally or more effective deterrents are worse than the problem they attempt to cure. I suspect that throttling issues 2-4 would make #1 significantly more tolerable to most.

Nitpicking by itself can be humorous and easily tolerated IMO, at least until it becomes a major portion of the recent thread content. Solutions to the nitpicking are unlikely given that one poster's nit may be another's relevant major concern and/or pet peeve and I can't imagine any way for moderators to draw a line betwixt the two.

Pointless arguments are pretty much as difficult to eliminate as nitpicking and for mostly similar reasons.

Much of #4 is already prohibited by forum rules but IME the moderators could be a bit more strict about that issue. OTOH, given that (AFaIK) the moderator's choices are pretty much limited to thread closure which (see #5 above) tends to punish the innocent along with the guilty making it a difficult sword to wield.

#6 is the most serious issue IMO. A very big part of the beneficial aspect of this and similar forums is the diverse and vast resource is provides to both all ranges of pilots or potential pilots. I believe that anything that detracts from that and/or discourages participation from participants seeking answers, knowledge, enlightenment, etc. should probably be thwarted as much as possible even if such efforts threaten "free speech" and to be honest if said enforcement turns away some who have a taste for pot-stirring or chest beating I can live with that.

If you've read this far you've probably noticed that I haven't offered any solutions. That's partly because I think that WRT #1-3 and the existing mechanisms for #4-5, there really aren't any viable options beyond helping the "innocent victims" come to grips with the fact that collateral damage inflicted on them is both unavoidable and not to be taken personally. As to #6 if I have any ideas I'll send them on to Jesse as requested rather than post them here since this isn't a democratic forum where the "people" get to directly choose the moderator's methods.
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Thread drift is your #1 gripe?
 
gismo said:
If you've read this far you've probably noticed that I haven't offered any solutions. That's partly because I think that WRT #1-3 and the existing mechanisms for #4-5, there really aren't any viable options beyond helping the "innocent victims" come to grips with the fact that collateral damage inflicted on them is both unavoidable and not to be taken personally. As to #6 if I have any ideas I'll send them on to Jesse as requested rather than post them here since this isn't a democratic forum where the "people" get to directly choose the moderator's methods.
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I don't disagree a bit, there really are no solutions that don't kill a board, it's the nature of the beasts we are.
 
Henning said:
The problem with all this is you as the MC are becoming a 'nanny state' at this point. You are trying to regulate people's words and thoughts and that can't be done effectively while maintaining respect from the users.
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As I recall, you and others have been accusing the MC of this since the early days before the red board came back online.

I come here after a few years absence and it seems much the same as it was before. How has it gotten worse?
 
Jay Honeck said:
One thing I've learned from spending 20 years on-line -- anonymity is not possible.

Anyone can know who you are, at any time. Trying to hide your identity is completely futile, in the face of a determined investigator. You only THINK you're anonymous.
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True dat.

Back around 2000 someone "anonymously" tried to sign me up for a couple dozen porn spam mailing lists after I kicked him off an EverQuest fan board.

He was shocked when the director of his IT department showed up at his desk wanting a chat, after said director had gotten a phone call from me.
 
Greebo said:
As I recall, you and others have been accusing the MC of this since the early days before the red board came back online.

I come here after a few years absence and it seems much the same as it was before. How has it gotten worse?
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It hasn't gotten worse, it's been the same because nothing has changed because every time the issue comes up, it's pretty much determined, "Crap, there's no way to fix it!" Spurts of action come and goes in cycles while showing no solution so the actions are abandoned. It's a waste of time to try and a waste of bandwidth to complain. People just need to gain a sense of perspective on all this and learn to just ignore.

People who cannot be in command of their own minds enough to not get emotionally wrought over trivial matters of word, how the hell are they going to handle it when their plane says "F- You" in the air?
 
Here is my hierarchy of rudeness on the Internet:

Facebook: Not bad because the people reading your content are known personally.

Professional Organizations: People sometimes act poorly, most are hesitant to do it because it could effect their jobs, money, etc. at some point.

Hobby forums: Getting worse everyday. Plenty of miserable human beings, self-proclaimed super experts, curmudgeons, bores, and anyone who enjoys correcting others on the most minor of points. You would never invite these people to a party, but somehow you end up reading their ramblings everyday.

OnLine Gaming: Full of middle class suburban kids who do nothing but game 18 hours a day. The only thing they love more than gaming is talking smack and pretending their some kind of yuppie gangster. Strange how they can make you want to find them sitting in the bedroom of some mini-van neighborhood and knock their teeth out in less than five minutes.

Yahoo Comments: Truly unbridled human nature. Racism, bigoted, crazy, scary, stupid, the worst in any of us.

The point is all of this is based on increasing levels of anonymity. The way to solve it is to require real names. How about that and real address, etc? That would certainly temper it.
 
The flip side is anyonimity allows people to post what they otherwise wouldn't post...good and bad.
 
Today I was filling out a defect report and it occurs to me that I have been using the same philosophy, skills, training, and procedures on this board as well as in life.

1) Report the problem in enough detail to be recognizable.
a) Report the location and environment of the defect.
b) Report the history of the defect.

2) Describe the actions.
a) Describe the actions leading up to the defect.
b) Describe the expected actions. Sometimes this is implied in the description of unexpected actions.
c) Describe the unexpected actions.
d) Describe the potential risk and interactions.
e) Describe known or potential work-arounds.

3) Provide additional detail as requested.

4) It is not your problem.
a) The problem is owned by those who caused it.
b) Do not attempt to solve the problem yourself.
c) Do not attempt to tell others how to solve the problem.

5) Once the problem is declared resolved, retest and report the results.

The problem I reported followed the same scenario:
Location: PoA board.
History: Occurred from my earliest experience and continuing in the present.
Precursor: Posting a thread with innocuous content.
Expected: Courteous discussion, potential feedback.
Unexpected: Rudeness, squabbling, locked thread.
Risk: Unstated originally, provided by later comments: Loss of membership, participation, and reputation.
Workarounds: Unstated originally, provided by later comments: Ignore the issue, regulation or enforcement, self-control.
Additional: None.
Assigned to: No one.
Status: Unresolved.

Now, going back to number 4:
Ignoring the problem does not make it go away. If you don't report the defect or if you just shrug your shoulders and accept it, the defect continues to occur and increase the risk. In fact, unresolved defects and rude behavior tend to build upon and reinforce themselves until the entire project becomes unusable. This same philosophy is true for software defects, unruly school children, alcoholics, or the Internet.

If you didn't cause the problem, you cannot fix it. Henning (and many others) are correct in saying that the problem will not be resolved with regulation or enforcement. Those who say it cannot be resolved are incorrect. This same philosophy is true for software defects, unruly school children, alcoholics, or the Internet.

So far as I can see, the resolution comes when the persons who caused the problem take ownership of it and determine to resolve it. I saw one instance of that in this thread. This same philosophy is true for software defects, unruly school children, alcoholics, or the Internet.
 
Sac Arrow said:
That's where I'm at.
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Why? Why should we encourage bad behavior. I voted many years ago to eliminate annonimity, I was out voted then so I quit campaigning for it. Now possibly there is some statistical software in this that will allow us to look at the posting quality for content in the intervening years and see how that compares between those who post openly under their real name and those who post annonimously? I know I am not the only one who campaigned for openness back then, many good posters gone because the problems never went away. The fact that it has not gone away after all those years as Chuck alludes to buys me a limited bit of grousing that I do.;) I still think open name acquisition should be required.

It's just the Internet, it's entertainment that isn't television. FMD, if you aren't entertained, change the channel! If you can't take a beating don't issue a challenge lol.
 
Heh. Peggy filed a bug ticket.

Your ticket number 1,238,452,934 in the IT ticket system category, "Bad human behavior" and has been classified as "Low Priority" by IT Management in accordance with upper management's published IT priorities, which can be found in the desk drawer of the CIO unless he's changed his mind today.

We would like you to fill out this customer satisfaction survey about your experience in contacting IT. By filling out this survey you will be entered in a free drawing for a six year old iPod. Which you'll get a discount on purchasing.

Thank you for contacting IT. If you need an update, you can reach us during normal office hours on Monday. After that, it's a crap shoot because we'll be up all night changing the spinning animated GIF logo on your e-mail signature for Marketing. (Which is currently what's written on the legal pad in the CIO's desk drawer.) Tuesday-Sunday you'll be routed to "Bob" in India who has no clue what is going on, but he's quite friendly.
 
AuntPeggy said:
So far as I can see, the resolution comes when the persons who caused the problem take ownership of it and determine to resolve it. I saw one instance of that in this thread. This same philosophy is true for software defects, unruly school children, alcoholics, or the Internet.
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Exactly, and that won't happen until anonymity is eliminated and people are forced to think just once more about saying something.
 
denverpilot said:
Heh. Peggy filed a bug ticket.

Your ticket number 1,238,452,934 in the IT ticket system category, "Bad human behavior" and has been classified as "Low Priority" by IT Management in accordance with upper management's published IT priorities, which can be found in the desk drawer of the CIO unless he's changed his mind today.

We would like you to fill out this customer satisfaction survey about your experience in contacting IT. By filling out this survey you will be entered in a free drawing for a six year old iPod. Which you'll get a discount on purchasing.

Thank you for contacting IT. If you need an update, you can reach us during normal office hours on Monday. After that, it's a crap shoot because we'll be up all night changing the spinning animated GIF logo on your e-mail signature for Marketing. (Which is currently what's written on the legal pad in the CIO's desk drawer.) Tuesday-Sunday you'll be routed to "Bob" in India who has no clue what is going on, but he's quite friendly.
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Ticket Closed, Reason: PEBKAC

I hear about "a problem" and people taking ownership of "their problem" and what they caused.

I don't see a problem.

This entire thread has been extremely amusing to me. I vote to rename it to "As the Prop Turns" :rofl:
 
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