I should know this... MEL

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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I have an INOP fuel gauge (right side) It has been going in and out and it finally crapped the bed for good it seams.

My POH has an equipment list but I don't see a MEL anywhere.
Does an INOP fuel gauge make the aircraft airworthy?

My apologies for not knowing this I am sure it is probably "Of course you have to have it dummy" but I want to confirm.
 
If no MEL then you go with FAR 91.205....

(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Airspeed indicator.

(2) Altimeter.

(3) Magnetic direction indicator.

(4) Tachometer for each engine.

(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.

(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.

(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.

(8) Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.

(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.

(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable landing gear.

(11) For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with part 23 of this chapter, an approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operation of the aircraft may continue to a location where repairs or replacement can be made.

(12) If the aircraft is operated for hire over water and beyond power-off gliding distance from shore, approved flotation gear readily available to each occupant and, unless the aircraft is operating under part 121 of this subchapter, at least one pyrotechnic signaling device. As used in this section, “shore” means that area of the land adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark and excludes land areas which are intermittently under water.

(13) An approved safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device, or other approved restraint system for each occupant 2 years of age or older.

(14) For small civil airplanes manufactured after July 18, 1978, an approved shoulder harness or restraint system for each front seat. For small civil airplanes manufactured after December 12, 1986, an approved shoulder harness or restraint system for all seats. Shoulder harnesses installed at flightcrew stations must permit the flightcrew member, when seated and with the safety belt and shoulder harness fastened, to perform all functions necessary for flight operations. For purposes of this paragraph -

(i) The date of manufacture of an airplane is the date the inspection acceptance records reflect that the airplane is complete and meets the FAA-approved type design data; and

(ii) A front seat is a seat located at a flightcrew member station or any seat located alongside such a seat.

(15) An emergency locator transmitter, if required by § 91.207.
 
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Unless your airplane is new enough (CAR 3) to have an AFM instead of a POH you probably don’t have an MEL.

So 91.205 applies and a fuel gauge is required.

Ferry permit time... if you have to fly it somewhere to fix it. Otherwise, it’s grounded.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Its in the shop for other reasons I was hoping to put this off until Annual. The grumman has the worst fuel tanks to deal with and I am bleeding money.
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What broke? Bummer man. Airplane ownership... three drink minimum, pay the doorman. :)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Its in the shop for other reasons I was hoping to put this off until Annual. The grumman has the worst fuel tanks to deal with and I am bleeding money.
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Gee, if only you knew someone, maybe even a family member who had a plane you could use. ;)

Oh wait, doesn't your dad have a Cirrus?

:D



Wayne
 
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Bryan, have you a copy of the Maintenance Manual for the plane? Perhaps a wiring diagram?
 
Speaking of being grounded...make sure your sending unit is making a good ground. On my Cessna, the ground wire between the wing and fuselage was poor...fuel gages were not working properly until I made better ground. Good luck.
 
Put an INOP sticker on the gas cap for that tank. That will nullify the requirement for the gauge. :cool:
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
My POH has an equipment list but I don't see a MEL anywhere.
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denverpilot said:
o have an AFM instead of a POH you probably don’t have an MEL.
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Curious. Perhaps you are referring to a KOL vs a MEL? Last I checked MEL's are FAA/FSDO approved to a specific S/N aircraft and not a generic section in a AFM/POH.
 
Wonder if the whole tank could be inoped?
 
Isn't this the "F" in the FLAMING TOMATO thing they teach you?

In 17 years of driving and boating I've never had a car or boat fuel gauge go bad. But just about every rental I've ever flown in doesn't have working fuel gauges.. I mean, it's a float, on a rheostat. What gives?
 
A lot of pilots don't understand what a MEL is. It is not, for example, the equipment list in the POH. It is a completely separate document the FAA approves for an individual owner for a specific airplane. It's actually a bit opposite of its name - a list of equipment which can be inop. It's common for commercial operators who don't want to have to go through the 91.213(d) actions just because a seat belt is broken. Common is allowing flight with only one operative fuel gauge.

It's very rare otherwise. And because it involves FSDO submission and approval, you would definitely know if you have one.

the FAA has templates for some common aircraft types. http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=Publication&doctype=MMEL
 
Tantalum said:
In 17 years of driving and boating I've never had a car or boat fuel gauge go bad. But just about every rental I've ever flown in doesn't have working fuel gauges.. I mean, it's a float, on a rheostat. What gives?
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I have experienced a stuck float, but this was a 45 year old car that was built in the 1970's based on a design from the 1950's. And it wasn't driven weekly.

Do those parameters sound familiar, perhaps applied to some other vehicle that doesn't necessarily spend all its time on the ground? ;)
 
Tantalum said:
Isn't this the "F" in the FLAMING TOMATO thing they teach you?

In 17 years of driving and boating I've never had a car or boat fuel gauge go bad. But just about every rental I've ever flown in doesn't have working fuel gauges.. I mean, it's a float, on a rheostat. What gives?
Click to expand...

40 to 50 years old will make the difference. ;)
Besides, everyone knows the gauge is only there for the FAA; no pilot actually trusts them. :p

(The ones in my Aztec are 40 years old, and they work...sort of. I suspect the only time they have been removed from the tank was to change a bladder, and then they got shoved right back in there again most likely.)
 
asicer said:
I have experienced a stuck float, but this was a 45 year old car that was built in the 1970's based on a design from the 1950's. And it wasn't driven weekly.

Do those parameters sound familiar, perhaps applied to some other vehicle that doesn't necessarily spend all its time on the ground? ;)
Click to expand...

I need to get out my bore scope and look
 
My daily driver car is 49 years old (551k miles) and the fuel gauge "rheostat" (like in most small planes) wore through about a year ago. Those fine wires wrapped around a phenolic board can only stand so much wiping back and forth by the float arm contact! The problem manifested itself by the inside gauge that showed fuel level until about the half full point at which it then dropped to empty. That's where the break in the wires occurred.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Its in the shop for other reasons I was hoping to put this off until Annual. The grumman has the worst fuel tanks to deal with and I am bleeding money.
Click to expand...

Eventually, the floats on the fuel senders get logged. I've replaced both senders over the years. (I'm tempted to replace them with an electronic sender with no moving parts, which would require installing a modern engine monitor system. More $$$.) The real pain comes when your Grumman wing tank springs a leak (usually around the spar) and you have to chip out and replace the sealant. I've had that done that twice in 30 years.
 
chemgeek said:
Eventually, the floats on the fuel senders get logged. I've replaced both senders over the years. (I'm tempted to replace them with an electronic sender with no moving parts, which would require installing a modern engine monitor system. More $$$.) The real pain comes when your Grumman wing tank springs a leak (usually around the spar) and you have to chip out and replace the sealant. I've had that done that twice in 30 years.
Click to expand...

Had one leak last year. 6 trips to mx before he got it sealed.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Had one leak last year. 6 trips to mx before he got it sealed.
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That this is happening during your training for your IFR is somewhat serendipitous.

You are likely to be quizzed on required equipment during your exams. And what to do if something isn't working. Now that you have this real lif example, you'll remember the answers better.

In addition to §91.205 and §91.213, read this article on "Kinds of Operations Equipment List". https://cfi-notebook.com/topics/kinds-of-ops-equip-list/

It may not apply to your Grumman, but it is a detail that an examiner may want you to be familiar with.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Had one leak last year. 6 trips to mx before he got it sealed.
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There is no shortcut to re-sealing the tanks. You have to chip and scrape out ALL the old crap before applying new sealant. Or it will leak again.

Hopefully, your mechanic knew to use the LOW adhesion sealant on the tank inspection panels. The A&P who sealed my tanks the first time was too lazy to buy the correct sealant, so getting those panels off to reseal the tanks the second time around many years later was pure hell. I bought the correct sealant for the panels last time. No leaks in 5 years...
 
chemgeek said:
There is no shortcut to re-sealing the tanks. You have to chip and scrape out ALL the old crap before applying new sealant. Or it will leak again.

Hopefully, your mechanic knew to use the LOW adhesion sealant on the tank inspection panels. The A&P who sealed my tanks the first time was too lazy to buy the correct sealant, so getting those panels off to reseal the tanks the second time around many years later was pure hell. I bought the correct sealant for the panels last time. No leaks in 5 years...
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He's not my mechanic anymore. He is a cheat and a liar. It was a long, painful, and expensive lesson.
I have a great one now. He is local and he calls Fletchair when he wants to know the process for doing something and has done a superb job.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Its in the shop for other reasons I was hoping to put this off until Annual. The grumman has the worst fuel tanks to deal with and I am bleeding money.
Click to expand...
Oh you are not alone. I just spent almost $400 just in parts to fix a leaking fuel drain. Mooney riveted them in originally, so when one fails, you've got to drill it out, put in a plate, drill a new hole for a new one, and then reseal the tank again..... Now that's the worst. I did most of the labor myself, so I should come out less than $1000, but in most planes it's $35 for a new drain and done.
 
Just LEAVE it!
Hasn't everyone wanted to have a gauge which they can furiously tap with their fingernail, usually when the chips are down, beads of sweat on your forehead, on final in a snowstorm, weather below minimums, a crowd in the tower anxiously awaiting the outcome...
Oh. That was a movie, sorry.
 
G-Man...I tried soldering the wires on the gas gauge sender and that worked for a while but then the solder gave up. So I bought a new unit that works ok. Car is a '71 Volvo 142E bought new , 4 April 1971. Original motor but a few clutches thanks to city driving.
 
Arrow76R said:
G-Man...I tried soldering the wires on the gas gauge sender and that worked for a while but then the solder gave up. So I bought a new unit that works ok. Car is a '71 Volvo 142E bought new , 4 April 1971. Original motor but a few clutches thanks to city driving.
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Solder is not a mechanical connection and should never be used as one for anything but a circuit board.

Even those when the engineer knows they’ll be subjected to vibration will usually have any tall components hot snot glued to the board.

Have to make a solid mechanical connection first then solder. For future reference.
 
Nate is correct, obviously. The fine wires on the pick-up rheostat were much too small to make a good mechanical connection but a solder joint was worth a try...BUT NOT on an airplane gauge!! I had "Plan B' for my car and that is miles driven since fill-up :) Many years ago the metal "tank" float on my SkyHawk fuel sender developed a pin-hole that caused it to sink. That float was replaced by a solid one. It may have been the subject of a service bulletin or AD, but I don't recall.
 
Arrow76R said:
My daily driver car is 49 years old (551k miles) and the fuel gauge "rheostat" (like in most small planes) wore through about a year ago. Those fine wires wrapped around a phenolic board can only stand so much wiping back and forth by the float arm contact! The problem manifested itself by the inside gauge that showed fuel level until about the half full point at which it then dropped to empty. That's where the break in the wires occurred.
Click to expand...

I thought I was driving the oldest car here, 33 years. Its fuel gauge failed over a decade ago. I manage without it.
 
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