I need some advice...

Mavalathon

Mavalathon

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Zero4
To give a brief description of myself, I'm a student pilot (soloed 2 mnths ago) working on my PPL, close to 6.5 hours in tailwheel aircraft, 4.3 of those hours in an 8KCAB. Was working on my tailwheel endorsement and also aerobatic training but never was able to finish neither of the two, as my CFI had a career change and had to move out of state. Lessons averaged about every 4-5 weeks due. Managed to do enough chair flying and reading to keep up to par during those 4-5 weeks. My question is, should I continue aerobatic training while working on my PPL, or should I wait until after I get my PPL to pursue?

And yes, I am intending to compete.

I'm open to any advice you may have for a newbie. Thanks in advance!
 
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Cut your budget / save the money to do it all at once and fly frequently. You’ll do much better flying more often.

My thought PPL first. Won’t do any good knowing acro if you can’t fly.
 
bflynn said:
Cut your budget / save the money to do it all at once and fly frequently. You’ll do much better flying more often.

My thought PPL first. Won’t do any good knowing acro if you can’t fly.
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Good point. Initially I was trying to complete both at the same time, but I see what you mean here.
 
Aerobatic / tailwheel training aside, if you can only afford to fly once a month you might want to pause until you can save up more money. What airplane were / are you doing your basic instruction in? Is it the same CFI for both?
 
Dana said:
Aerobatic / tailwheel training aside, if you can only afford to fly once a month you might want to pause until you can save up more money. What airplane were / are you doing your basic instruction in? Is it the same CFI for both?
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I was taking instruction in a 8KCAB. I have (or had) two different instructors for PPL training and aerobatic. My previous CFI for aerobatics moved out of state.
 
Finish the PPL 1st. Learning the Acrobatics will go a lot faster after have mastered the PPL Maneuvers. Just really focus of performing the private maneuvers with precision.
Plus doing the PPL 1st will be a better more efficient use of your time and resources.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
|I think you're putting the cart before the horse with efforts to master aerobatics while learning the basics of a PP certificate.

Look at the track record of people in your position who let lack of funds derail the goal, usually permanently, in which case you have to look at the money spent as just very, very expensive entertainment. Any break in training should be due to weather, instructor availability or family crises - not waiting for the piggy bank to collect enough for the next lesson.
 
You sound like you want it all and you want it now. Getting PPL is a big hunk to bite off. Focus on that, you have a written test, an oral test and a check ride. It's a lot. Acro is useless, tailwheel is useless unless you are training in a tail wheel aircraft. Focus on your PPL. At flying once a month you should be done in about 3 or 4 years. Hmmmm, you may want to get that figured out too.
 
brcase said:
Finish the PPL 1st. Learning the Acrobatics will go a lot faster after have mastered the PPL Maneuvers. Just really focus of performing the private maneuvers with precision.
Plus doing the PPL 1st will be a better more efficient use of your time and resources.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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**Correction just soloed 2 months ago. Sorry about that.
My CFI saw potential, so he encouraged me to keep proficiency. I was flying 4-5 G clean maneuvers with less than 15 hours of dual. But training for both ppl and aerobatic was completely my decision.
 
PaulS said:
You sound like you want it all and you want it now. Getting PPL is a big hunk to bite off. Focus on that, you have a written test, an oral test and a check ride. It's a lot. Acro is useless, tailwheel is useless unless you are training in a tail wheel aircraft. Focus on your PPL. At flying once a month you should be done in about 3 or 4 years. Hmmmm, you may want to get that figured out too.
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Perhaps I might sound a too ambitious and biting off more than I can chew. I have done some of my PPL training in a tailwheel and I am planning to buy a tailwheel. Flying once a month was purely for minimum proficiency. I could have flown once a week or more if I wanted to. However I was putting most of my effort to PPL training, since I knew that I'd have to knock that out first. I had other training other than what I mentioned so couldn't fly as much as I wanted.
 
Mavalathon said:
Flying once a month was purely for minimum proficiency. I could have flown once a week or more if I wanted to.
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In the original post, you said you only did one lesson every four to five weeks due to financial insufficiency, but now I see you've edited that part out, so which is it? If you could have flown more, then why didn't you? It's very difficult to maintain proficiency only flying once a month, especially in the early stages.
 
Flying acro and the checkride prep/PTS stuff are unrelated. Two different things that can coexist just fine if you have the time and money. First learning turns around a point, etc. has no bearing on learning loops, rolls, hammers, spins, etc. WWII era pilots learned basic acro during primary training. It's your time and money, do what you want.
 
Do the PPL first ,going to be tuff to maintain your abilities for the PPL unless you can fly more often.
 
PaulS said:
Acro is useless, tailwheel is useless unless you are training in a tail wheel aircraft
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I beg to strenuously differ. Acro and tailwheel both are HUGE things in making one a better pilot who better understands his aircraft.

And it's like the bikers say, "for those who understand, no explanation is necessary; if you have to ask, no explanation is possible."
 
Dana said:
I beg to strenuously differ. Acro and tailwheel both are HUGE things in making one a better pilot who better understands his aircraft.

And it's like the bikers say, "for those who understand, no explanation is necessary; if you have to ask, no explanation is possible."
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He needs his private first, he said money is an issue. Context, it's important.
 
PaulS said:
he said money is an issue.
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He said it was an issue at first, and then edited that part out and now says he could have flown once or twice a week if he wanted to. If that was the case, I dunno why he wouldn’t choose the latter. Doesn’t add up to me.
 
None of your posts are clear about what's going on, but I understand that you're working on your private certificate and you plan to buy a tailwheel airplane. So do your instruction in a tailwheel airplane, fly as often as you can, get your certificate and then do the other stuff.
 
As someone who took an aerobatic course immediately AFTER my check ride, I can't imagine doing it any other way. No question that both activities add to skills, but I'd be concerned about subtracting from the important aspects of initial training by trying to cram too much into it.
 
Why is the first piece of advice always to stop flying and save up money to finish quicker? Why does anyone need to quickly finish their ppl? As long as they are having fun doing what they are doing then let it take as long as it takes. The only difference between having your ppl and not having it is the cost of the instructor. If learning aerobatics adds 6 months to getting your license is that really any different than taking another 6 months of aerobatic instruction after you have your license? If you can only afford to fly once a month then just fly once a month. It’s not a race.
 
kmacht said:
Why is the first piece of advice always to stop flying and save up money to finish quicker? Why does anyone need to quickly finish their ppl? As long as they are having fun doing what they are doing then let it take as long as it takes. The only difference between having your ppl and not having it is the cost of the instructor. If learning aerobatics adds 6 months to getting your license is that really any different than taking another 6 months of aerobatic instruction after you have your license? If you can only afford to fly once a month then just fly once a month. It’s not a race.
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Up until you get your certificate, everything is perishable. Until you take that check ride and get the certificate, you might never become a pilot. But once you have the certificate, you have it forever. So check that box and then do whatever you want from there.
 
I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that the OP could only afford his aerobatic lessons once every four to five weeks? Could be completely wrong.

That said, I would do my primary training in the tailwheel airplane, if that is an interest, finish that up, and then move on to finishing the aerobatic training after the private pilot checkride.
 
What non-acro folks may not understand is that full dual aerobatic training only takes a handful of hours to accomplish. Its purpose is just to get you safe to perform the basics on your own and to be able to recover any spin mode. Its purpose is not to output a highly refined and skilled acro pilot. You get there on your own. The PPL is not a race and taking a few days from the PPL process isn't going to make any difference. He also won't need any recurrency acro training unless the PPL drags out a year or more. OP, spend your time and money how you want.
 
Yes, and it will help with the more mundane flying.

One reason the military does aerobatics pre-solo.

If you are not in a rush, and not too limited in funds, some aerobatic instruction pre-PPL would be a good idea.

I did my tailwheel and aerobatic work right after getting my PPL
 
I've seen quite a few people try to get their pilot license. Some are still trying after quite a while, some have given up. There seems to be a trend in the ones who struggle. They have a preconceived notion of what a pilot is and where they want to be. Which is fine, but they see the airplane or endorsement everyone is talking about and end up side tracked or slowed down because of it, either training for something that would be easy after you know how fly too soon. Or wanting to train in a hot shot airplane where the operation of said plane takes up time that could be devoted to learning needed maneuvers or skills.

One comes to mind is a guy who watched a lot of youtubers and wanted to become like Steveo, who makes flying look easy. He got set up to train in Cirrus sr-20s and set all his cameras up. He began his training and making videos. Complete with shout outs to Steveo and Niko. He had an excellent instructor, but the problem was you could tell he was scared ****less to be in control. The cameras were distracting him. He made about 6 videos, then gave up. I think had he chosen a 172 and left the cameras at home he might have succeeded.

Another has been over a year, learning to fly in another hot shot airplane. He seems motivated, but I can't help but think had he been flying in a basic trainer, he'd have had his license and been transitioned into his dream plane by now.

I did my private a long time ago. I had preconceived notions of what flying was like. Those went away on my first flight, I had never been in a little airplane, the instructor had me do the takeoff. I was hooked, but the reality set in that it's easy to kill yourself doing this, so I decided to learn all I could. I got my license in about 7 months, it would have been quicker but it was a tough year weather wise and I got cancelled alot.

To the OP, fly as often as you can, study as hard as you can, even after you pass the written. You need to be able to answer all the same questions at your check ride. Learn the maneuvers and how to fly the plane, the basics. Be as comfortable as possible doing them.

Discuss your goals with your instructor. Generally, most instructors want to get you to pass the checkride as quickly as possible. Which is good, but as a new pilot, you want the ticket, and you want to be competent using it. Make sure you know how to fuel a plane, know how to deal with ATC, ATC should be second nature when you get your ticket. Make sure you understand how to figure out which runway to land on and how to get there on both controlled and uncontrolled airports. Sounds basic, but you would be surprised. You want to be comfortable planning out a flight and flying to an unfamiliar airport.

Focus on the ticket, the other stuff you can do later and it will make more sense.

My advice.
 
OP, hope you don't have any plans to go on a ski trip or anything for a few days before you pass your checkride. POA will descend and proclaim irrevocable distraction and harm to your PPL training. :rolleyes:
 
RoscoeT said:
OP, hope you don't have any plans to go on a ski trip or anything for a few days before you pass your checkride. POA will descend and proclaim irrevocable distraction and harm to your PPL training. :rolleyes:
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If it hasn't already...:rolleyes2:
 
kmacht said:
Why is the first piece of advice always to stop flying and save up money to finish quicker? Why does anyone need to quickly finish their ppl? As long as they are having fun doing what they are doing then let it take as long as it takes. The only difference between having your ppl and not having it is the cost of the instructor. If learning aerobatics adds 6 months to getting your license is that really any different than taking another 6 months of aerobatic instruction after you have your license? If you can only afford to fly once a month then just fly once a month. It’s not a race.
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I always hear that advice nowadays. Yes it may be a challenge to attain the same mastery of both but it's not impossible to do it
 
Mavalathon said:
I always hear that advice nowadays. Yes it may be a challenge to attain the same mastery of both but it's not impossible to do it
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In your case, can you compete in aerobatics on a student pilot certificate?
 
He can learn and fly instruments too without a ticket, just needs the instructor tagging along.
 
RyanB said:
In the original post, you said you only did one lesson every four to five weeks due to financial insufficiency, but now I see you've edited that part out, so which is it? If you could have flown more, then why didn't you? It's very difficult to maintain proficiency only flying once a month, especially in the early stages.
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I cut that out for private reasons. Sorry if it's caused some confusion. Financial insufficiency for aerobatic training. Well technically, since I had two separate funds for training, it could have been possible to pull $ out of PP training. Thus I couldn't decide if that could be termed as "insufficiency". I couldn't fly more often than what I mentioned because my CFI had quite a few other students in line, and he was also a full time engineer. Because most of his students were local, they were able to get more training, which means that my CFI's schedule was filled by the students first - I was farther away, so was only able to get what dates were left.

TCABM said:
In your case, can you compete in aerobatics on a student pilot certificate?
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In certain circumstances, it is possible to fly under a student pilot certificate, but a CFI would have to be with me.
 
Mavalathon said:
I cut that out for private reasons. Sorry if it's caused some confusion. Financial insufficiency for aerobatic training. Well technically, since I had two separate funds for training, it could have been possible to pull $ out of PP training. Thus I couldn't decide if that could be termed as "insufficiency". I couldn't fly more often than what I mentioned because my CFI had quite a few other students in line, and he was also a full time engineer. Because most of his students were local, they were able to get more training, which means that my CFI's schedule was filled by the students first - I was farther away, so was only able to get what dates were left.


In certain circumstances, it is possible to fly under a student pilot certificate, but a CFI would have to be with me.
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You are making it too hard, but it’s your wallet.
 
Mavalathon said:
No offense taken. I appreciate your advice!
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For what its worth, I did my PP over 2 years flying twice a month and was able to finish with a reasonable amount of hours(in my opinion). 60 something hours if I recall correctly.
 
Pinecone said:
Yes, and it will help with the more mundane flying.

One reason the military does aerobatics pre-solo.
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Your experience was different than mine. I soloed in the T-41 with less than 10 hours. You may be right about the T-37 sequence of events; I don't remember. I started UPT in June and soloed the T-37 at the end of August, so you must be correct in regard to that trainer.

I agree that learning aerobatic maneuvers will help in aircraft control for normal flights, but I also think we should learn to walk before we learn to run. If this were my student, I would encourage finishing the private certificate first.
 
I skipped the T-41, as I had my PPL. I soloed at 21.9 hours in the T-37, and was the first in my class to solo.

I did aerobatics my Dollar Ride in the Tweet, but I had already done a good bit of aerobatic training before.

From a time/money standpoint, I agree that civilian pilots should do the PPL, THEN do the aerobatics.

In a perfect world, they would start in gliders and do their PPL in a aircraft capable of aerobatics, and do them pre solo and pre PPL. And I would definitely do spins pre PPL.
 
Doesn't the military have a different mission than flight schools have?

Seems to me that part of their goal is to identify the pilots that won't make good combat pilots so that they can focus their resources on the pilots that will. I don't think the flight schools share that philosophy - but maybe they should.
 
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