I have a felony conviction question concerning medical certificate

Unregistered said:
Hello, I was wondering if someone could help me out with some advice. .
19 years ago I went to prison for armed robbery. I and 3 other kids robbed a drug dealer for his marijuana. I was 17 years old at the time. I did a lot of stupid things at that point in my life. I grew up and became a productive citizen & a good natured human being many years ago. I'm just an ordinary person like the rest of you, living an ordinary life. If we had met outside of you knowing all this, you wouldn't even believe that I’ve been in prison before. I've seen it over and over again.
I’ve logged 14 or 15 hours of flight time over the last 2 months. I was excited, getting ready to solo! I went for my 3rd class medical physical today and the doctor couldn’t give me a medical certificate due to my criminal history? He told me that I’m supposed to elaborate in detail, step by step of what exactly happened during the crime . . .
Is this right? I’ve never been asked to do something like this. It really bothers me, almost to the point that I don’t want to be apart of this anymore. It doesn’t seem right & I’m not use to this sort of treatment. I checked into this prior to taking any flight lessons. I was told that as long as I hadn’t been in trouble with-in 1 year, I’d be fine.
I surely appreciate any information that you can give me on this. Thank you for your time, Sincerely
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My Medical Certificate came in the mail last week :) I will solo when I get back to the States, I'm on Vacation in Asia for a month right now. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone here for all of your support, especially you Dr. Bruce. Thanks for all of your help. Sincerely, Gregg
 
Unregistered said:
My Medical Certificate came in the mail last week :) I will solo when I get back to the States, I'm on Vacation in Asia for a month right now. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone here for all of your support, especially you Dr. Bruce. Thanks for all of your help. Sincerely, Gregg
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Glad to hear that!
 
If you were convicted at age 17, you were a minor and your adult record should be clear, if not you could have the juvi conviction expunged by the courts..
 
Unregistered said:
My Medical Certificate came in the mail last week :) I will solo when I get back to the States, I'm on Vacation in Asia for a month right now. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone here for all of your support, especially you Dr. Bruce. Thanks for all of your help. Sincerely, Gregg
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Congrats!
Remember, treat that certificate as the valuable item it is. Protect it and protect the fact that you have one now.

Go Fly!
 
10driver said:
If you were convicted at age 17, you were a minor and your adult record should be clear, if not you could have the juvi conviction expunged by the courts..
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Again, the question does not ask "is there record of"....it asks "have you ever".... a very different question.

Good things come to those who wait, it's been 10 months. Smile and protect that puppy.
 
bbchien said:
See #22 below. This is FROM THE FAA.


You can be a convicted felon and hold a certificate unless it is one the thing TSA says you can't do. The FAA says even if you are convicted you must mark the block on the application. One year from the conviction and you can apply for a certificate. The TSA 1544.229 rule states the following:

Disqualifying criminal offenses. An individual has a disqualifying criminal offense if the individual has been convicted, or found not guilty by reason of insanity, of any of the disqualifying crimes listed in this paragraph in any jurisdiction during the 10 years before the date of the individual's application for authority to perform covered functions, or while the individual has authority to perform covered functions. The disqualifying criminal offenses are as follows:

(1) Forgery of certificates, false marking of aircraft, and other aircraft registration violation; 49 U.S.C. 46306.
(2) Interference with air navigation; 49 U.S.C. 46308.
(3) Improper transportation of a hazardous material; 49 U.S.C. 46312.
(4) Aircraft piracy; 49 U.S.C. 46502.
(5) Interference with flight crew members or flight attendants; 49 U.S.C. 46504.
(6) Commission of certain crimes aboard aircraft in flight; 49 U.S.C. 46506.
(7) Carrying a weapon or explosive aboard aircraft; 49 U.S.C. 46505.
(8) Conveying false information and threats; 49 U.S.C. 46507.
(9) Aircraft piracy outside the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States; 49 U.S.C. 46502(b).
(10) Lighting violations involving transporting controlled substances; 49 U.S.C. 46315.
(11) Unlawful entry into an aircraft or airport area that serves air carriers or foreign air carriers contrary to established security requirements; 49 U.S.C. 46314.
(12) Destruction of an aircraft or aircraft facility; 18 U.S.C. 32.
(13) Murder.
(14) Assault with intent to murder.
(15) Espionage.
(16) Sedition.
(17) Kidnapping or hostage taking.
(18) Treason.
(19) Rape or aggravated sexual abuse.
(20) Unlawful possession, use, sale, distribution, or manufacture of an explosive or weapon.
(21) Extortion.
(22) Armed or felony unarmed robbery.
(23) Distribution of, or intent to distribute, a controlled substance.
(24) Felony arson.
(25) Felony involving a threat.
(26) Felony involving --
(i) Willful destruction of property;
(ii) Importation or manufacture of a controlled substance;
(iii) Burglary;
(iv) Theft;
(v) Dishonesty, fraud, or misrepresentation;
(vi) Possession or distribution of stolen property;
(vii) Aggravated assault;
(viii) Bribery; or
(ix) Illegal possession of a controlled substance punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of more than 1 year.
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That language regarding the Ten Year period is pretty clear. "...or found not guilty by reason of insanity, of any of the disqualifying crimes listed in this paragraph in any jurisdiction during the 10 years before the date of the individual's application for authority to perform covered functions, or while the individual has authority to perform covered functions."

At 19 years out from the conviction, it looks to me like their own regs stipulate that conviction is NOT a disqualifying agent any longer.
 
gprellwitz said:
se·di·tion (s -d sh n). n. 1. Conduct or language inciting rebellion against the authority of a state. 2. Insurrection; rebellion.
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Now generally lumped under the rubrick of "terrorism". :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. They are different.
 
gprellwitz said:
se·di·tion (s -d sh n). n. 1. Conduct or language inciting rebellion against the authority of a state. 2. Insurrection; rebellion.
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And incorporating the "language" portion of that definition into laws and regulations runs afoul of the First Amendment, while the interpretation of which language incites rebellion and which incites change through legal means can all too easily fall into the category of unconstitutionally vague.

But that's a dictionary definition. I found the following definition in a legal dictionary, but is the term defined in federal regulations or statutes?

sedition

n. the federal crime of advocacy of insurrection against the government or support for an enemy of the nation during time of war, by speeches, publications and organization. Sedition usually involves actually conspiring to disrupt the legal operation of the government and is beyond expression of an opinion or protesting government policy. Sedition is a lesser crime than "treason," which requires actual betrayal of the government, or "espionage." Espionage involves spying on the government, trading state secrets (particularly military) to another country (even a friendly nation), or sabotaging governmental facilities, equipment or suppliers of the government, like an aircraft factory. During U.S. participation in World War II (1941-1945) several leaders of the German-American Bund, a pro-Nazi organization, were tried and convicted of sedition for actively interfering with the war effort. Since freedom of speech, press and assembly are guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and because treason and espionage charges can be made for overt acts against the nation's security, sedition charges are rare.
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http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1903

I find myself wondering if the TSA can be counted on to make the type of fine distinctions described in that definition.
 
Ron Levy said:
Negative. If you opposed the government effectively, you wouldn't be a criminal when it was over -- you'd be the father of your country.:D
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That would be true if he said "successfully!" :) Effective can still be insufficient!
 
jstro said:
While I'm no softie when it comes to crime, it bothers me that a person who turned their life around must be forever haunted by a conviction record that denies them the opportunity to make a life for themselves. It seems like such a system pushes an ex-con back into the criminal lifestyle rather than helps them rise above it. This applies mainly to getting a good career going, but also things like getting a pilots license. I just wanted to say that and best of luck to you, follow the good advice you'll get here, i.e., working with the ME and providing a thorough description of what happened and putting your best foot forward. They need to be very sure that you've put all this behavior behind you as you have described, since it would be a safety risk to you and other pilots.
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I concur. I personally believe some of the laws implemented to control illegal drug use can be more destructive to our society than the actual drug use.

Also knowing how politics and business works, It wouldn't surprise me to discover that the alcohol industry is behind some of the harsher laws on drug use. After all, who need the competition?

I recall a radio news story where wine and beer lobbyists were funding church group protests to keep some county dry for hard liquor.
 
kontiki said:
I concur. I personally believe some of the laws implemented to control illegal drug use can be more destructive to our society than the actual drug use.

Also knowing how politics and business works, It wouldn't surprise me to discover that the alcohol industry is behind some of the harsher laws on drug use. After all, who need the competition?

I recall a radio news story where wine and beer lobbyists were funding church group protests to keep some county dry for hard liquor.
Click to expand...

According to this Web site, there were a variety of ulterior motives at work in the banning of marijuana:

http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/
 
Unregistered said:
I went for my 3rd class medical physical today and the doctor couldn’t give me a medical certificate due to my criminal history? He told me that I’m supposed to elaborate in detail, step by step of what exactly happened during the crime . . .
Is this right? I’ve never been asked to do something like this. It really bothers me, almost to the point that I don’t want to be apart of this anymore.
Click to expand...

It is a form of double jeopardy. Meaning, the FAA uses psychiatrists to punish a person twice for the same crime.

Glad to hear everything worked out well for you.
 
Unregistered said:
It is a form of double jeopardy. Meaning, the FAA uses psychiatrists to punish a person twice for the same crime.
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While it may seem that way to you, it is not so under the law. The FAA action is an administrative action, not a criminal action, and the double jeopardy protection only applies to criminal actions -- just ask OJ.
 
Unregistered said:
It is a form of double jeopardy. Meaning, the FAA uses psychiatrists to punish a person twice for the same crime.
Click to expand...
Can't tell if this is Aeromedical Politics Division or HIMS guy. Doesn't matter. What these guys don't understand is that the FEDS did not cause your DUI(s).
 
Ron Levy said:
While it may seem that way to you, it is not so under the law. The FAA action is an administrative action, not a criminal action, and the double jeopardy protection only applies to criminal actions -- just ask OJ.
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I thought OJ was brought to justice, such as it was, through a civil suit, not an administrative action (prior to the conviction in Florida). :confused:
 
Palmpilot said:
I thought OJ was brought to justice, such as it was, through a civil suit, not an administrative action. :confused:
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Quite true, but the analogy is sound; the fact of an acquittal on criminal charges does not protect you from further harsh consequence in another arena.
 
Henning said:
I thought he finally got it in Vegas? :popcorn:
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If you're speaking of jail time, that's correct, but it was for a different criminal offense in a different jurisdiction. But his late wife's family obtained a large monetary damage judgement in civil court for wrongful death after his acquittal in criminal court on murder charges for her death, and it is about that which I was speaking as regards double jeopardy for the same offense. The Nevada criminal case was entirely unconnected to the death of his wife in California.
 
So I guess with my felony possessing weed in my home wont get me far in medical? I am already 10 months in with med school..... I was looking to become an ultrasound technician but its looking like my dream is going to be cut short :(
 
Unregistered said:
Hello, I was wondering if someone could help me out with some advice. .
19 years ago I went to prison for armed robbery. I and 3 other kids robbed a drug dealer for his marijuana. I was 17 years old at the time. I did a lot of stupid things at that point in my life. I grew up and became a productive citizen & a good natured human being many years ago. I'm just an ordinary person like the rest of you, living an ordinary life. If we had met outside of you knowing all this, you wouldn't even believe that I’ve been in prison before. I've seen it over and over again.
I’ve logged 14 or 15 hours of flight time over the last 2 months. I was excited, getting ready to solo! I went for my 3rd class medical physical today and the doctor couldn’t give me a medical certificate due to my criminal history? He told me that I’m supposed to elaborate in detail, step by step of what exactly happened during the crime . . .
Is this right? I’ve never been asked to do something like this. It really bothers me, almost to the point that I don’t want to be apart of this anymore. It doesn’t seem right & I’m not use to this sort of treatment. I checked into this prior to taking any flight lessons. I was told that as long as I hadn’t been in trouble with-in 1 year, I’d be fine.
I surely appreciate any information that you can give me on this. Thank you for your time, Sincerely
Click to expand...
This is one of those things that is doable, but will require some time and effort on your part.
#1 you did the right thing and reported it on your medical app.
#2 You now have to contact OKC and find out exactly what they want to have you do.
#3 Had you not reported it on the medical app, you would have been able to solo, but shortly there after you would have gotten a rather nasty letter from the FAA outlining precisely what you need to do (within 60 days) in order to keep your new medical cert.
I have first hand experience in this area, and If you care to PM me, I can give you more detailed information as to how it went for me.
 
bluerooster said:
This is one of those things that is doable, but will require some time and effort on your part.
#1 you did the right thing and reported it on your medical app.
#2 You now have to contact OKC and find out exactly what they want to have you do.
#3 Had you not reported it on the medical app, you would have been able to solo, but shortly there after you would have gotten a rather nasty letter from the FAA outlining precisely what you need to do (within 60 days) in order to keep your new medical cert.
I have first hand experience in this area, and If you care to PM me, I can give you more detailed information as to how it went for me.
Click to expand...

He got his medical in Oct 2010.

It's hard with the new improved site, but red the little bitty dates at the bottom of the posts. Interesting thread, though--this is it's second revival
 
GlennAB1 said:
Find the best lawyer you can afford. What you need to look into is called expungment.
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Negative. Here's another one that doesn't understand that expungement is a STATE notion. The Feds never expunge ANYTHING.

Do an FBI search after expungement. It'll still be there.
 
The latest (10YO) perspective from DoJ on background checks including reporting expunged records is here.

SV: If the state tells the FBI to remove it, they say they will. Usually they do, sometimes they don't. YMMV.
 
bbchien said:
Whatever, Glenn
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Why is that so hard to believe? In fact, I bet there are lots of folks out there that don't put the conviction on their medical application (even if NOT expunged) because the FAA got their access to that database taken away some years ago as I understand it. They only check the drivers license database. Am I wrong?
 
I don't know about that but I do have a few pilots who got gigged and I had to work to bail 'em out.....and that was after they got the revoke for lying. Maybe you are thinking Pre-TSA days.


The TSA 1544.229 rule states the following:

Disqualifying criminal offenses. An individual has a disqualifying criminal offense if the individual has been convicted, or found not guilty by reason of insanity, of any of the disqualifying crimes listed in this paragraph in any jurisdiction during the 10 years before the date of the individual's application for authority to perform covered functions, or while the individual has authority to perform covered functions. The disqualifying criminal offenses are as follows:

(1) Forgery of certificates, false marking of aircraft, and other aircraft registration violation; 49 U.S.C. 46306.
(2) Interference with air navigation; 49 U.S.C. 46308.
(3) Improper transportation of a hazardous material; 49 U.S.C. 46312.
(4) Aircraft piracy; 49 U.S.C. 46502.
(5) Interference with flight crew members or flight attendants; 49 U.S.C. 46504.
(6) Commission of certain crimes aboard aircraft in flight; 49 U.S.C. 46506.
(7) Carrying a weapon or explosive aboard aircraft; 49 U.S.C. 46505.
(8) Conveying false information and threats; 49 U.S.C. 46507.
(9) Aircraft piracy outside the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States; 49 U.S.C. 46502(b).
(10) Lighting violations involving transporting controlled substances; 49 U.S.C. 46315.
(11) Unlawful entry into an aircraft or airport area that serves air carriers or foreign air carriers contrary to established security requirements; 49 U.S.C. 46314.
(12) Destruction of an aircraft or aircraft facility; 18 U.S.C. 32.
(13) Murder.
(14) Assault with intent to murder.
(15) Espionage.
(16) Sedition.
(17) Kidnapping or hostage taking.
(18) Treason.
(19) Rape or aggravated sexual abuse.
(20) Unlawful possession, use, sale, distribution, or manufacture of an explosive or weapon.
(21) Extortion.
(22) Armed or felony unarmed robbery.
(23) Distribution of, or intent to distribute, a controlled substance.
(24) Felony arson.
(25) Felony involving a threat.
(26) Felony involving --
(i) Willful destruction of property;
(ii) Importation or manufacture of a controlled substance;
(iii) Burglary;
(iv) Theft;
(v) Dishonesty, fraud, or misrepresentation;
(vi) Possession or distribution of stolen property;
(vii) Aggravated assault;
(viii) Bribery; or
(ix) Illegal possession of a controlled substance punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of more than 1 year.

Reference:

Federal Register: February 19, 2002
 
bbchien said:
I don't know about that but I do have a few pilots who got gigged and I had to work to bail 'em out.....and that was after they got the revoke for lying. Maybe you are thinking Pre-TSA days.


The TSA 1544.229 rule states the following:

Disqualifying criminal offenses. An individual has a disqualifying criminal offense if the individual has been convicted, or found not guilty by reason of insanity, of any of the disqualifying crimes listed in this paragraph in any jurisdiction during the 10 years before the date of the individual's application for authority to perform covered functions, or while the individual has authority to perform covered functions. The disqualifying criminal offenses are as follows:

(1) Forgery of certificates, false marking of aircraft, and other aircraft registration violation; 49 U.S.C. 46306.
(2) Interference with air navigation; 49 U.S.C. 46308.
(3) Improper transportation of a hazardous material; 49 U.S.C. 46312.
(4) Aircraft piracy; 49 U.S.C. 46502.
(5) Interference with flight crew members or flight attendants; 49 U.S.C. 46504.
(6) Commission of certain crimes aboard aircraft in flight; 49 U.S.C. 46506.
(7) Carrying a weapon or explosive aboard aircraft; 49 U.S.C. 46505.
(8) Conveying false information and threats; 49 U.S.C. 46507.
(9) Aircraft piracy outside the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States; 49 U.S.C. 46502(b).
(10) Lighting violations involving transporting controlled substances; 49 U.S.C. 46315.
(11) Unlawful entry into an aircraft or airport area that serves air carriers or foreign air carriers contrary to established security requirements; 49 U.S.C. 46314.
(12) Destruction of an aircraft or aircraft facility; 18 U.S.C. 32.
(13) Murder.
(14) Assault with intent to murder.
(15) Espionage.
(16) Sedition.
(17) Kidnapping or hostage taking.
(18) Treason.
(19) Rape or aggravated sexual abuse.
(20) Unlawful possession, use, sale, distribution, or manufacture of an explosive or weapon.
(21) Extortion.
(22) Armed or felony unarmed robbery.
(23) Distribution of, or intent to distribute, a controlled substance.
(24) Felony arson.
(25) Felony involving a threat.
(26) Felony involving --
(i) Willful destruction of property;
(ii) Importation or manufacture of a controlled substance;
(iii) Burglary;
(iv) Theft;
(v) Dishonesty, fraud, or misrepresentation;
(vi) Possession or distribution of stolen property;
(vii) Aggravated assault;
(viii) Bribery; or
(ix) Illegal possession of a controlled substance punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of more than 1 year.

Reference:

Federal Register: February 19, 2002
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The only thing I see in my case on this exerpt, would be "misrepresentation". What an expungement is as explained and defined to me, is "the legal right to answer no to the charges against me." Example DUI: DUI expunged. "Have you a prior DUI?", "No". That's the legality of the expungement. But everything seems to not hold up in this thread for the reason of expungement's legalality. Under expungement the reasons are, "in the interest of justice". Why else would a judge grant expungement if it doesn't mean anything?
 
This is insane. Ever eat a grape at the grocery store to see if they are good before you buy a bunch of them? That's theft. No pilot's license for you.

A very wise priest once told me that the only difference between criminals and non-criminals is that the criminals got caught. I don't care how perfect you think you are, everyone has done something that could technically be considered a crime in somebody's eyes.

I think the "good moral character" part is a crock. No one is qualified to make that type of judgement on another human being.
 
Rykymus said:
This is insane. Ever eat a grape at the grocery store to see if they are good before you buy a bunch of them? That's theft. No pilot's license for you.

A very wise priest once told me that the only difference between criminals and non-criminals is that the criminals got caught. I don't care how perfect you think you are, everyone has done something that could technically be considered a crime in somebody's eyes.

I think the "good moral character" part is a crock. No one is qualified to make that type of judgement on another human being.
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Amen!

Pre-existing condition. Null candidate and disqualified. No insurance for you. That's why I say, "Nope", to any and all questions a doctor asks me, "Have you ever had or done ...?" It stays in your doctor's visit jacket.

Most, and I mean upper 95% or more, of us as 18-21 have abused alcohol in a form or another. It's kinda a rights of passage am I wrong? So, if you are lucky (? not sure) enough to have "wheels" and dumb enough to use them after a party, then you are 100% screwed for life. The other's that used their friend to drive them are 100% off the hook and 100% more qualified and 100% not alcohol abusers, right? So to get a DUI is to "be a drunk" 100%. That's good risk analysis :)

That's how it works I guess. Only with historical records can a plot be made. If a tree falls and nobody is around to witness it (not anyone to document it), did the tree make a noise?
 
FullHeartedly said:
The only thing I see in my case on this exerpt, would be "misrepresentation". What an expungement is as explained and defined to me, is "the legal right to answer no to the charges against me." Example DUI: DUI expunged. "Have you a prior DUI?", "No". That's the legality of the expungement. But everything seems to not hold up in this thread for the reason of expungement's legalality. Under expungement the reasons are, "in the interest of justice". Why else would a judge grant expungement if it doesn't mean anything?
Click to expand...

You are deluded. That is an incomplete paraphrase of the meaning of expungement NOT a definition. Even in California where DUI expunction is possible, it remains on the driver record and in certain criminal records such that it can be used to enhance penalties on subsequent convictions. Again as you have been told already, there are times that inquiries about expunged convictions can INDEED be made and 18v on your medical application is indeed one of these.
 
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