I Committed a Runway Incursion

U

Unregistered

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The other day, I needed to stop by the airport to see someone. He was on the other side of the runway and I was in my vehicle. I passed by a Skylane in the fuel area and after noting that he was yielding right-of-way, I proceeded onto the taxiway and across the runway.

On the way back, I did not look both ways as is customary and proceeded across the solid/ striped line for entry across the runway. It was a careless mistake and had I been driving a little faster, I would have cutoff the Skylane that had just powered past my position to takeoff.

I am sorry that I could have injured a lot of people that day. I think there were 2 in the Skylane. I had 4 souls in the vehicle.

My passenger asked if I should report myself. I don't know if that adds any value, even if it's an ASRS form.
 
Dont worry about it.

Learn, move on.

Consider yourself blessed by the aviation gods, but don't push your luck.

Henning should use that in his signature. :D


Seriously, you didn't stop at a stop sign at an airport? Are you " that guy"?
 
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I'm assuming that was at a non towered airport, and you were in a car? I don't think you busted any FAA regs although there may be a local airport policy about cars on the runway. Certainly not looking carefully before crossing the runway was careless, though.
 
Unregistered said:
The other day, I needed to stop by the airport to see someone. He was on the other side of the runway and I was in my vehicle. I passed by a Skylane in the fuel area and after noting that he was yielding right-of-way, I proceeded onto the taxiway and across the runway.

On the way back, I did not look both ways as is customary and proceeded across the solid/ striped line for entry across the runway. It was a careless mistake and had I been driving a little faster, I would have cutoff the Skylane that had just powered past my position to takeoff.

I am sorry that I could have injured a lot of people that day. I think there were 2 in the Skylane. I had 4 souls in the vehicle.

My passenger asked if I should report myself. I don't know if that adds any value, even if it's an ASRS form.
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Not to belabor this, but aircraft have the FULL and ABSOLUTE right of way to vehicles, unless it's an ambulance attending to an emergency. There really is no such thing as an aircraft giving you the right of way in a vehicle.

Crossing an active runway in a vehicle is usually limited to field equipment. How do you get permission to drive around on runways in a private vehicle?
 
CTLSi said:
, unless it's an ambulance attending to an emergency.
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Nope

If a plane is on the runway and the ambulance crosses the hold short, the ambulance screwed the pooch. Also you'll find medics on the field tend to be VERY careful around planes.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm assuming that was at a non towered airport, and you were in a car? I don't think you busted any FAA regs although there may be a local airport policy about cars on the runway. Certainly not looking carefully before crossing the runway was careless, though.
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I had to go around at an airport down south somewhere. Lots of trees, no side runway. The car didn't even hit the brakes. He would have hit me. It was a local. :yikes:

If you don't like what you see go around. :yes:
 
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Happens more than you may think at uncontrolled airports where there is civilian vehicle traffic. Not sure it counts as an incursion at an uncontrolled field though. Not that verbiage makes it any more or less dangerous. You clearly recognized it and learned from it. I think we all thank you for that.


CTLSi said:
Not to belabor this, but aircraft have the FULL and ABSOLUTE right of way to vehicles, unless it's an ambulance attending to an emergency. There really is no such thing as an aircraft giving you the right of way in a vehicle.

Crossing an active runway in a vehicle is usually limited to field equipment. How do you get permission to drive around on runways in a private vehicle?
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CTLSi said:
Not to belabor this, but aircraft have the FULL and ABSOLUTE right of way to vehicles, unless it's an ambulance attending to an emergency. There really is no such thing as an aircraft giving you the right of way in a vehicle.

Crossing an active runway in a vehicle is usually limited to field equipment. How do you get permission to drive around on runways in a private vehicle?
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One of the airports I frequent is like this, KVKX non-towered with an FBO on the other side of the runway. No permission required to cross. Just look before you cross. Its generally accepted that if a vehicle is on airport property its probably a pilot as there is a family type feel there with hangars at the far end of the taxiway.

As a matter of fact, I have approached in my car while an airplane was nearby and after waiting, it becomes obvious the pilot is yielding. I press the gas pedal and get out of his way as I am aware his Hobbs is running.
 
Your proximity to the aircraft was not the cause of the runway incursion. An incursion is an unauthorized presence within the safety area of a runway, regardless of the presence of an aircraft. The fact that you almost got nailed by an aircraft simply upgrades the category of the incursion.

Were you authorized to be driving on the movement area and/or crossing a runway?

Emergency vehicles DO NOT have the right-of-way over aircraft, especially on a runway.

You received an education that you just can't get in the classroom. Learn from it an move on. Be sure to share you ignorance with others so that they can learn from it too. Those who live through such incidents are typically become the safest airport users.
 
:yeahthat:
Once the hold-short was crossed while an aircraft was in launch position (or even getting ready to launch), it became an incursion.
 
Jaybird180 said:
:yeahthat:
Once the hold-short was crossed while an aircraft was in launch position (or even getting ready to launch), it became an incursion.
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Bullhockey. This is almost as much crap as CTLSi spouts. Tell me anything that says that a ground vehicle and an aircraft can't occupy the runway at the same time (or even two aircraft contrary to what some people believe). At an uncontrolled field, you just need to make sure that no hazard exists. If I can cross a runway while someone doodling around on the threshhold does the last twenty pages of his blasted checklist, I will. Ain't no way he's going to come close to me 2000' down the runway even if he firewalled it.
 
ICAO defines a runway incursion as:
Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle, or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take-off of aircraft.

The use "protected area" makes it difficult to apply by the letter to an uncontrolled field with civilian vehicles driving around. There is no protection, other than hold short lines, which an average civilian in a car knows nothing about. But again, the concept and principle is the same.
 
flyingron said:
Bullhockey. This is almost as much crap as CTLSi spouts. Tell me anything that says that a ground vehicle and an aircraft can't occupy the runway at the same time (or even two aircraft contrary to what some people believe). At an uncontrolled field, you just need to make sure that no hazard exists. If I can cross a runway while someone doodling around on the threshhold does the last twenty pages of his blasted checklist, I will. Ain't no way he's going to come close to me 2000' down the runway even if he firewalled it.
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Flying RON , you are wrong. Your opinion does not change the definition. It was shown to you in writing. Now why don't you show the thread, IN WRITING, where it says that you can drive on the movement area or cross a runway. If you are authorized then you will not be causing a runway incursion. It is not simply the runway position hold bar, it is the runway safety area that can not be entered. If you don't know what a safety area is, learn, or stay off the airport.

I earn my living in airport safety. I have been doing this for 30 years and serve on several RSAT and RIAT teams. Try and correct your ignorance and learn from his near mishap. Keep your opinions to yourself and offer fact, not demand proof.
 
The definition of what? The definition of a runway incursion is this

Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take off of aircraft.

I am quite familiar with what a movement area is. You tell me what AUTHORIZATION a vehicle needs at an uncontrolled airport such as the one we are discussing needs? I know what a runway safety area is, but it has little to do with what we're talking about. A runway safety area applies to the area around which much be clear of obstructions.

You are the one who is deluded if you think there is anything that prohibits two aircraft or an aircraft and a vehicle from being on the runway at the same time. While there are restrictions on what ATC can authorize at controlled fields, at uncontrolled fields it's wide open as long as you "don't cause no problems"

Your alleged credentials don't mean much when you hide behind an anonymous posting.
 
Unregistered said:
Flying RON , you are wrong. Your opinion does not change the definition. It was shown to you in writing. Now why don't you show the thread, IN WRITING, where it says that you can drive on the movement area or cross a runway. If you are authorized then you will not be causing a runway incursion. It is not simply the runway position hold bar, it is the runway safety area that can not be entered. If you don't know what a safety area is, learn, or stay off the airport.

I earn my living in airport safety. I have been doing this for 30 years and serve on several RSAT and RIAT teams. Try and correct your ignorance and learn from his near mishap. Keep your opinions to yourself and offer fact, not demand proof.
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Why are you posting as "Unregistered"?
 
CTLSi said:
Not to belabor this, but aircraft have the FULL and ABSOLUTE right of way to vehicles, unless it's an ambulance attending to an emergency. There really is no such thing as an aircraft giving you the right of way in a vehicle.
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A vehicle that has the right-of-way can yield that right-of-way.
 
CTLSi said:
Not to belabor this, but aircraft have the FULL and ABSOLUTE right of way to vehicles, unless it's an ambulance attending to an emergency. There really is no such thing as an aircraft giving you the right of way in a vehicle.

Crossing an active runway in a vehicle is usually limited to field equipment. How do you get permission to drive around on runways in a private vehicle?
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Citation?
 
FAA Guide to Ground Vehicle Operations
Non-Towered Airports

When the control tower is closed or if there is no tower, the airport is referred to as non-towered. At a non-towered airport, you do not need controller permission before entering a runway or taxiway. Below are some best practices for operating on a non-towered airport:

* When you approach the runways and taxiways, STOP, LOOK both ways, and
LISTEN for aircraft that are landing or taking off. Vehicle windows should be open to do this properly.

* Alert others when you are using a taxiway or runway by always making an announcement on the radio before you enter. Be specific with your location and intentions.

* Always yield the right-of-way to taxiing aircraft and give them plenty of room. If an aircraft is headed toward you on the same taxiway, move out of the aircraft's way.

* Always carry a radio tuned to the airport's Common Traffic Advisory Frequency (CTAF) or UNICOM.

* If an aircraft is about to land on a runway that you need to cross, stop well clear of the runway. Continue to yield to the aircraft until it has landed and taxied off of the runway.

* Be aware that some aircraft at non-towered airports are not equipped with radios.

* Before you cross a runway, ensure that no potentially conflicting aircraft are taxiing, landing or taking off. Be aware of aircraft at non-towered airports that frequently make touch-and-go landings (immediately after landing, full power is applied and the aircraft takes off again).

* If your vehicle has a rotating beacon, be sure to turn it on anytime you are on the airport surface. Turn on headlights as well, being careful not to blind any pilots in the area.

Traffic Patterns

Aircraft approaching a runway for landing usually follow a standard landing pattern. Most runways are positioned so planes will take off and land into the wind. In most cases, the pattern is a rectangular box with the pilot making all turns to the left, as shown in Figure 3.1. In a few cases, airports will use right traffic patterns. However, don't assume all aircraft will always be flying in the standard pattern - it is not required, only recommended - so keep a visual look out to the sky.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
PAustin said:
FAA Guide to Ground Vehicle Operations
Non-Towered Airports

When the control tower is closed or if there is no tower, the airport is referred to as non-towered. At a non-towered airport, you do not need controller permission before entering a runway or taxiway. Below are some best practices for operating on a non-towered airport:

* When you approach the runways and taxiways, STOP, LOOK both ways, and
LISTEN for aircraft that are landing or taking off. Vehicle windows should be open to do this properly.

* Alert others when you are using a taxiway or runway by always making an announcement on the radio before you enter. Be specific with your location and intentions.

* Always yield the right-of-way to taxiing aircraft and give them plenty of room. If an aircraft is headed toward you on the same taxiway, move out of the aircraft's way.

* Always carry a radio tuned to the airport's Common Traffic Advisory Frequency (CTAF) or UNICOM.

* If an aircraft is about to land on a runway that you need to cross, stop well clear of the runway. Continue to yield to the aircraft until it has landed and taxied off of the runway.

* Be aware that some aircraft at non-towered airports are not equipped with radios.

* Before you cross a runway, ensure that no potentially conflicting aircraft are taxiing, landing or taking off. Be aware of aircraft at non-towered airports that frequently make touch-and-go landings (immediately after landing, full power is applied and the aircraft takes off again).

* If your vehicle has a rotating beacon, be sure to turn it on anytime you are on the airport surface. Turn on headlights as well, being careful not to blind any pilots in the area.

Traffic Patterns

Aircraft approaching a runway for landing usually follow a standard landing pattern. Most runways are positioned so planes will take off and land into the wind. In most cases, the pattern is a rectangular box with the pilot making all turns to the left, as shown in Figure 3.1. In a few cases, airports will use right traffic patterns. However, don't assume all aircraft will always be flying in the standard pattern - it is not required, only recommended - so keep a visual look out to the sky.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Although I'm of the opinion the OP committed a violation, I do not think the above guide is legally enforceable or binding; it is guidance only, not law or regulation.
 
It's impossible to tell if the poster committed an incursion (let alone a violation) based on the scant evidence provided. But much of what has been posted here (other than the excerpt from the the FAA guidance) is unsubstantiated drivel.
 
Another thing: at a non-towered airport, if the sun is at the end of the rwy you are about to taxi onto (whether you are in an airplane, car, truck, or golf-cart), and that's also the direction of landing traffic, double-check to make sure there really isn't an airplane on short final that you can't see.
 
CTLSi said:
Not to belabor this, but aircraft have the FULL and ABSOLUTE right of way to vehicles, unless it's an ambulance attending to an emergency.
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Which FAA regulation or state driving law says that? I've never heard of one which says that.

There really is no such thing as an aircraft giving you the right of way in a vehicle.
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Yes, there is. I've yielded right of way to vehicles on the airport many times when I thought it was the safe thing to do while taxiing around.

Crossing an active runway in a vehicle is usually limited to field equipment.
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Not sure what you mean by "field equipment", but permission to be driving a vehicle on runways at nontowered airports varies greatly by airport. There are certainly no absolutes on that point.

How do you get permission to drive around on runways in a private vehicle?
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At a nontowered airport? The answer varies widely between airports. Start by asking the airport manager if there is one, or the airport owner/operator if there isn't. And I'm glad you finally asked a question rather than spouting incorrect answers.

In any event, I thank the OP for posting what happened to reemphasize the importance of careful operation of vehicles on nontowered airports. I encourage the OP to submit an NASA ASRS report so the story can be more widely shared and more people can learn from it.
 
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Ron Levy said:
In any event, I thank the OP for posting what happened to reemphasize the importance of careful operation of vehicles on nontowered airports. I encourage the OP to submit an NASA ASRS report so the story can be more widely shared and more people can learn from it.
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The OP failed to observe post #20, which seems like should be common sense, but he got careless. What can be learned by submitting an ASRS?
 
Jaybird180 said:
The OP failed to observe post #20, which seems like should be common sense, but he got careless. What can be learned by submitting an ASRS?
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Learned by submitting? Nothing. Learned by reading? Plenty. So let others learn from your experience, even if it is just to reemphasize the importance of being careful in this situation where complacency can kill you.
 
Whenever I do mowing around the runway lights, I put a NOTAM up and keep my head on a swivel. I have to be on the edge of the runway surface to mow and I don't have the ability to listen to the UNICOM over the riding mower. I try to mow downwind as much as possible to see the traffic coming.

I inspect the runway each morning as well, I bring the handheld and let area traffic know that "operations vehicle is taking runway XX for inspection".

Not sure what the rules dictate for these things but that's what I do when it comes to it, all safety minded.
 
Jaybird180 said:
What can be learned by submitting an ASRS?
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Amongst aviation safety circles? Plenty. ASRS reports are often used to look at safety trends. For non-towered fields, unless there's an accident there is very little for safety analysts to go on regarding runway/taxiway incursions.

ASRS can be used for more than just a get-out-of-jail-free card.
 
Reading "Callback" (the formatted dissemination of the ASRS submissions) is frequently amusing.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Although I'm of the opinion the OP committed a violation, I do not think the above guide is legally enforceable or binding; it is guidance only, not law or regulation.
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Yes, it appears to be a guide, from the FAA.gov website. I meant it to reiterate what a few others were trying to say in that when at an uncontrolled airport there are no true rules that govern what you can and can't do.


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overdrive148 said:
I inspect the runway each morning as well, I bring the handheld and let area traffic know that "operations vehicle is taking runway XX for inspection".
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Anyone ever say "Mind putting it back when you're done so I can land?"
 
F01LA said:
Anyone ever say "Mind putting it back when you're done so I can land?"
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Yes -- I've heard them. It was mildly amusing the first time I heard it a couple of decades ago, kind of like the "Sorry, Santa, you're gonna lose on one takeoff" joke. After that, it was just an annoying waste of precious CTAF bandwidth.
 
flyingron said:
The definition of what? The definition of a runway incursion is this

Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take off of aircraft.

I am quite familiar with what a movement area is. You tell me what AUTHORIZATION a vehicle needs at an uncontrolled airport such as the one we are discussing needs? I know what a runway safety area is, but it has little to do with what we're talking about. A runway safety area applies to the area around which much be clear of obstructions.

You are the one who is deluded if you think there is anything that prohibits two aircraft or an aircraft and a vehicle from being on the runway at the same time. While there are restrictions on what ATC can authorize at controlled fields, at uncontrolled fields it's wide open as long as you "don't cause no problems"

Your alleged credentials don't mean much when you hide behind an anonymous posting.
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The unregistered guest is correct on one part.

The runway safety area deals with much more than obstructions. Any vehicle, aircraft, or pedestrian entering this area (the RSA) without authorization is indeed committing a runway incursion.

We've had this issue at several large Part 139 airports here in the midwest and I've worked with the (now former) manager of the Runway Safety Group to clarify and work with airports to fix incursion issues they've been having. While the mandatory hold position markings protect the RSA (and some other surfaces) on pavement, it's difficult to tell the boundaries of an RSA when you're off-pavement, like during mowing ops. There have been several incidents where mowers have committed incursions by penetrating the boundaries of the RSA on grass, even though they're not delineated like they are on pavement. We've experimented with a few options to delineate the RSA off-pavement, such as silt fence, frangible stakes, and burning/killing a strip of grass at the RSA boundary.

You are correct, however, that there is no such thing as a runway incursion at an uncontrolled airfield. To put this issue to rest, I dug up part of a prior email conversation I had with one of the Runway Safety Program managers here. In part, he states:

"By definition, runway incursions occur at airports with operating control towers. There are obviously risks associated with operating on or near the runway environment at a non-towered airport, but incidents are not classified as runway incursions (example, Quincy ground collision in 1996). Helpful?"

I'd be happy to answer any other runway safety related questions if anyone has more.
 
Turningfinal said:
You are correct, however, that there is no such thing as a runway incursion at an uncontrolled airfield. To put this issue to rest, I dug up part of a prior email conversation I had with one of the Runway Safety Program managers here. In part, he states:

"By definition, runway incursions occur at airports with operating control towers. There are obviously risks associated with operating on or near the runway environment at a non-towered airport, but incidents are not classified as runway incursions (example, Quincy ground collision in 1996). Helpful?"

I'd be happy to answer any other runway safety related questions if anyone has more.
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Are you reducing this to semantics?
 
It was such an incident as you describe that a vehicle crossing the runway and collided with an aircraft. Rockland Maine, 2 or 3 yrs ago. Pilot and passengers killed.
 
Unregistered said:
The other day, I needed to stop by the airport to see someone. He was on the other side of the runway and I was in my vehicle. I passed by a Skylane in the fuel area and after noting that he was yielding right-of-way, I proceeded onto the taxiway and across the runway.

On the way back, I did not look both ways as is customary and proceeded across the solid/ striped line for entry across the runway. It was a careless mistake and had I been driving a little faster, I would have cutoff the Skylane that had just powered past my position to takeoff.

I am sorry that I could have injured a lot of people that day. I think there were 2 in the Skylane. I had 4 souls in the vehicle.

My passenger asked if I should report myself. I don't know if that adds any value, even if it's an ASRS form.
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Is there a way to get to the other side of the airport without crossing the runway? If so, I suggest you use it.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Originally Posted by CTLSi View Post
Not to belabor this, but aircraft have the FULL and ABSOLUTE right of way to vehicles, unless it's an ambulance attending to an emergency. There really is no such thing as an aircraft giving you the right of way in a vehicle.

Crossing an active runway in a vehicle is usually limited to field equipment. How do you get permission to drive around on runways in a private vehicle?
Click to expand...
Citation?
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No citation required since it's in all caps. ;)
 
Sac Arrow said:
Citation?
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ROFL. I just found his new signature tag line.

MjAxMy0xYmRkMjEwOTNmMGEwYTMy.png
 
I used to have a button that read:

QUESTION AUTHORITY...ASK ME ANYTHING.
 
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