I bought an airplane. It was a lifelong dream. 6 months later, I'm out. (Reddit post)

Having always owned a certified plane; I’m curious, are these types of issues more easily handled on experimentals?

I’m thinking at least parts should be easier to find..?
 
I've had a LOT of experiences like this. I think there are a lot of reasons for it too not just one thing, although the rippling effects from all the COVID lockdowns are certainly making it worse. I could probably itemize a dozen different things that I think contribute but instead I'll talk about the effect.

I put a lot of money into this flying thing, but beyond that I put a lot of effort into it too. It's a lot of work to make sure all the maintenance is getting done, all the paperwork is current, YOU are current, and then maintaining the required levels of proficiency on top of all that. The flying is the point, it's wonderful, it's the payoff for all this financial and psychological suffering. Then when you can't actually go do it for weeks or months over some random BS that could probably have been fixed in an hour had someone competent actually looked at it.... it's the most disheartening thing. It really does make you get mad and ask what you keep going through all this for.
 
WDD said:
Given the market crash, it's hard not to believe we're already in a recession. :)

Actually, being an AP might be a fun retirement gig. Two years of school? OK, could be helpful in getting me out of the house (wife would like that). Where to train? Surely there are schools in the ATL area. And..... not finding it easy to search. Doesn't seem like there are many schools around that can graduate an AP.
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I thought about that when I semi retired at 57. Now at 64, looking back, I wish I had done it. Probably too late now. My body wouldn’t hold up to all the twisting and contortion. Besides, I made a good amount of coin as a Engineering consultant, so now I’ll just pay the young guys to do the work. I do do owner assisted annuals though.
 
dans2992 said:
Having always owned a certified plane; I’m curious, are these types of issues more easily handled on experimentals?

I’m thinking at least parts should be easier to find..?
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Experimentals are a LOT easier. You may not "find" parts, but you can make them, and you don't need an A&P. But you do need to be involved with the maintenance.
 
WDD said:
Given the market crash, it's hard not to believe we're already in a recession. :)

Actually, being an AP might be a fun retirement gig. Two years of school? OK, could be helpful in getting me out of the house (wife would like that). Where to train? Surely there are schools in the ATL area. And..... not finding it easy to search. Doesn't seem like there are many schools around that can graduate an AP.
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Check the local community college or whatever they call them in GA. The one in my city has a thriving aviation program including A&P.

Cheers
 
My suggestion to a potential plane buyer is to line up, hire and start a business relationship with a shop or AP before starting to shop for a plane. Let that shop know what your looking for and make it clear you are going to want them to do the pre buy, service and annual inspections. That way they have some skin in the game and may know of a good plane to refer you to. I would want to buy something local or at least regional like the OP did. His problem was he didn't have anyone to trust and to do a prebuy. He did it backward and made the seller wait until he could get a pre buy done which is not really fair to the seller. IMO

It helps to be able to help yourself a little also, do a pre inspection yourself and get to know the model airplane you want to buy, not just on paper but in person. Then get your AP involved.
 
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X3 Skier said:
Check the local community college or whatever they call them in GA. The one in my city has a thriving aviation program including A&P.

Cheers
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I am starting AP school this august(next month), 4 nights a week. The community college adviser I talked to suggested I go directly to a local FAA office and present my AMT log and experience in order to get a 8610-2 letter to take the AP tests. My AP/IA that helps me with my plane has been telling me the same thing for years now,"go get your AP".
But I feel I want to start at school and see how that goes, I feel weak in couple areas so I am taking those classes. Hopefully next spring go to Bakers and get it done without going to school for 3.5 years since I would only be doing it 4 nights week instead of full time. Either way not a easy deal. Luckily I has 30+ years of mechanical experience.
The school is at my home airport 200' away from my hangar.
 
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The fact that this guy couldn't get good help in no way means "it's long dead and we've just been looting the corpse".
 
Palmpilot said:
I have to wonder if part of the problem is that the increase in demand for GA airplanes that drove prices up has resulted in a corresponding increase in demand for mechanic services, without a corresponding increase in supply.
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That's my sense as well, talking to multiple shops and engine builders. The high prices have motivated a lot of hangar queens to go on the market, and the new eager owners are discovering that sitting planes have lots of things that need fixing. Good shops have no shortage of work right now.
 
Brad Z said:
That's my sense as well, talking to multiple shops and engine builders. The high prices have motivated a lot of hangar queens to go on the market, and the new eager owners are discovering that sitting planes have lots of things that need fixing. Good shops have no shortage of work right now.
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My A&P has certainly picked up a lot of this type of business. He’s turning people away.
 
WDD said:
Given the market crash, it's hard not to believe we're already in a recession. :)

Actually, being an AP might be a fun retirement gig. Two years of school? OK, could be helpful in getting me out of the house (wife would like that). Where to train? Surely there are schools in the ATL area. And..... not finding it easy to search. Doesn't seem like there are many schools around that can graduate an AP.
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Looks like there's one in Jonesboro, Lawrenceville, and Atlanta.

https://airframe-powerplant.com/airframe-powerplant-schools-georgia.htm
 
Mtns2Skies said:
... for the pay that you're offering...
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Except that doesn’t account for the 2 million or so folks who’ve just stepped away from the US labor market entirely. But that’s not as bad as it seems, because the labor market in the US has been shrinking for decades while simultaneously becoming more efficient.

Those two million or so people who took themselves out of the labor market were the straws the broke the camel’s back essentially. As a workforce, we can’t “gain efficiencies” our way out of this.

You’ll see it in non-scalable industries first; you’re already seeing it honestly, it’s just being labelled inflation. Underlying data shows overall output is beginning to stagnate. Everything from mom-and-pop diners to maintenance shops are running on financial fumes exacerbating their ability to offer higher pay. Kind of an ugly closed loop effect there. Can’t generate revenue to pay existing ee’s more AND hire more ee’s at a higher wage, so the employees job hop looking for highest pay and the small businesses die.

What’s really ugly is labor demographics by generation. We very well may be in “there be dragons” territory and not yet recognize it.
 
readytocopy995 said:
i handle maintenance for a small fleet. to me it sounds like they don't know how to talk to a shop. i'm in socal as well and if something pops up i can find 3-4 shops within a 30 minute flight to do almost anything within a few days. i don't understand this story
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Maybe it's because a bonanza is such a rare and obscure plane.. oh.. hmm...

yeah I think everyone knows exactly what happened with this story. :)
 
dmspilot said:
Author lives in SoCal. He said South LA but several posts refer to places and businesses in San Diego.
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I'm in SoCal (Camarillo) and when I wanted to get a prebuy on two separate planes earlier this year just about every mechanic turned me down.

The first plane was a Beech Musketeer and most shops said they don't work on Beechcraft,

The second plane was an early 60's 172 and most shops refused that one due to age. In the end the Beech didn't work as the bank wouldn't finance it, the 172 didn't work as it had some serious corrosion issues and the person that was going to do the prebuy stopped before it started. Thankfully he also didn't charge for the prebuy as he made the determination from pictures I sent him before setting a date for the prebuy.
 
Nothing new under the sun. Commenting on social media about a post made on a different social media site.

Current state version of airport bums talking about the newest owner/tenant sob story on the block.
 
TommyG said:
Sadly I see the community is more online based instead of airport based. 25 years ago there would be plenty of airport bums sit around talk, have some drinks.
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It's a double edged sword. It's never been easier to get information and advice. There's only a few active pilots at my home field. I've gotten to know a couple and will go out of my way to go talk to them if their hangar is open. If I really have a question though this place will provide faster answers, and a larger variety. I think it's a net benefit.

Heck, half the things I know about aviation I've picked up here. And the other half is probably true.
 
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
Perhaps you should work directly for the NTSB. After glancing at the accident scene for 1 minute you can write a scathing report and then hit the bar.
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I think most people on this forum could skim that post and come to a conclusion. I can't imagine reading the whole thing through. I've read a lot of positive and inspiring things on here. Funny things sometimes. Lots of great stuff on POA. But that wasn't one of them, to me.
 
TCABM said:
Except that doesn’t account for the 2 million or so folks who’ve just stepped away from the US labor market entirely.
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Sure it does, in the part that you edited out. Supply and demand still drives that equation, you just gave a reason that supply is low.
 
Hmm, having recently bought an airplane, I had no trouble finding a pre-buy shop. Several shops stated they keep a bit of slack in their schedule for pre-buys, as they tend to be on a short time line.

My field has a very good shop. And experienced in my Make. There are two other good shops with make experience within 30 - 40 minute flight.

And 3 avionics shops, two of them with very good reputations.

I have heard good things about Savvy. I plan in enrolling in the Savvy QA level. This will get me a second opinion on work, assistance in finding a good shop if the ones around me all close. Plus the Breakdown assistance and the analysis of engine monitor data.
 
In the shops defense, it cost a LOT of money to run a maintenance shop on a decent size airport. Taking on a new to them airplane is a HUGE risk. If they handed you a bill for the amount of work that would be required to minimize their liability, most of us would scoff and rant online about them trying to ruin their business. I mean imagine the work it would take to research all the AD's, then dig into the airplane to ensure they had been complied with. They are after all assuming responsibility for every previous persons work. In this litigious society it doesn't matter if you were directly responsible, you can still get sued and likely be out big bucks.
 
When I retired from the Air Force I went to community college and got the certificates needed to test for an A&P rating. I never intended to wrench for a living. The skills learned to get the A&P are basic. Today's aircraft are progressively becoming more and more "electronic" and each component manufacturer has their own proprietary designs which combine everything into one architecture which make it nearly impossible to troubleshoot without an electrical engineering degree. Back in the analog days of standalone VHF/VORs, ADFs, transponders and steam gauges, just about every A&P could work on every airplane. Nowadays you have to engage a specialist in that specific equipment and no two airplanes are alike. The avionics industry has pretty much screwed us all by gouging us on subscriptions for the data the tax payer pays for and requiring all service of their equipment to be by their own approved service centers. Welcome to the digital age.
 
I have a good relationship with the mechanics that maintain my aircraft.not saying the poster didn’t do his research before the purchase rather than at the time of sale. I like to have everything involved in the purchase ready to go before hand. Sorry we’re losing another pilot owner.
 
frfly172 said:
Sorry we’re losing another pilot owner.
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The plane will find a better owner.

Having seen my share of planes destroyed by incompetent, neglectful or naive owners, I feel more interest in having aircraft in good hands than in a short term owner’s interest. Any time an aircraft moves away from a foolish owner, and it’s often at a discounted price when they do, it’s a benefit for the flying community as a whole. Nice older planes en mass is a legacy that we are extremely fortunate to have received in the US, and maintaining it benefits future owners.
 
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I don't think it is unusual to spend up to a couple of years dealing with deferred, sloppy, or incorrect maintenance by the last owner of a used aircraft. One of the advantages of ownership is maintaining an aircraft to your own personal operational and safety standards. Many aircraft, especially bargains, are sold because their owners cannot keep up with operational and maintenance costs. Finding a trusted shop that knows your plane and your personal maintenance standards is an important relationship to set up early in ownership.
 
Grum.Man said:
In Taking on a new to them airplane is a HUGE risk. If they handed you a bill for the amount of work that would be required to minimize their liability,
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what liability? If they are inspecting, they have no liability for anything that is broken. Their liability comes from not doing their work to an industry standard. If it is as you suggest, no shop would ever take on a new customer. Shops not taking on a new customer is not driven by liability.

as far as bills that we will rant at, the bill should never be a surprise, but the work should also accurately find the right problem. If a shop is just guessing at the problem, they don’t k ow how to do their work and should lose customer.
 
chemgeek said:
I don't think it is unusual to spend up to a couple of years dealing with deferred, sloppy, or incorrect maintenance by the last owner of a used aircraft. One of the advantages of ownership is maintaining an aircraft to your own personal operational and safety standards. Many aircraft, especially bargains, are sold because their owners cannot keep up with operational and maintenance costs
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Yes, I think all of that is more usual than unusual.

I wouldn’t personally put my plane sight unseen into a shop for maintenance, or rather it would have to be a very unusual shop/people. But regardless of how you do it, a lot of things always need addressing with a new plane acquisition. I’m still doing it on my plane after 12 years, one little thing after another, with the big things now sorted out.
 
My expectation is that when I do retire and buy the plane I’ll fly it straight to the AP and have it sit for a month or two as they fix things. Test fly, find problem, repeat. Then off to the avionics shop simewhere in the US for another month or two to fix/ install avionics.
 
Witmo said:
When I retired from the Air Force I went to community college and got the certificates needed to test for an A&P rating. I never intended to wrench for a living. The skills learned to get the A&P are basic. Today's aircraft are progressively becoming more and more "electronic" and each component manufacturer has their own proprietary designs which combine everything into one architecture which make it nearly impossible to troubleshoot without an electrical engineering degree. Back in the analog days of standalone VHF/VORs, ADFs, transponders and steam gauges, just about every A&P could work on every airplane. Nowadays you have to engage a specialist in that specific equipment and no two airplanes are alike. The avionics industry has pretty much screwed us all by gouging us on subscriptions for the data the tax payer pays for and requiring all service of their equipment to be by their own approved service centers. Welcome to the digital age.
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It's a problem we've allowed to happen in so many fields. One of the original promises of adding programmable logic or software into systems was to allow inexpensive changes, upgrades and repairs without having to redesign the hardware. But what's happened instead is exactly what you describe above, and worse for purse software. For anything general purpose business, the software is always released with flaws. Perhaps not intentionally, but it's absolutely not to the manufacturers detriment. To keep the systems "safe" everyone using the software needs to subscribe to the updates, or it'll go out of date and be vulnerable. Imagine selling a product you know doesn't work, that you know you can't be sued for if it accidentally kills someone, that you can force customers to buy a subscription to fix your mistakes or face sanctions, and that should last forever, but you're going to make it obsolete in 2 years. That's the software industry.
 
Grum.Man said:
In the shops defense, it cost a LOT of money to run a maintenance shop on a decent size airport. Taking on a new to them airplane is a HUGE risk. If they handed you a bill for the amount of work that would be required to minimize their liability, most of us would scoff and rant online about them trying to ruin their business. I mean imagine the work it would take to research all the AD's, then dig into the airplane to ensure they had been complied with. They are after all assuming responsibility for every previous persons work. In this litigious society it doesn't matter if you were directly responsible, you can still get sued and likely be out big bucks.
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A pre-buy is NOT an official inspection. It doesn't and shouldn't be logged.

There should be NOTHING fixed during a pre-buy, until a list of all things is presented to the seller and buyer to work out who pays for what and what they want to be fixed. Or that the deal may be off.

If you use Savvy pre-buy, they have the shop do the big things (engine and corrosion) first as they can be show stoppers.

Typically, anything airworthiness is paid by the seller and other things MAY be paid for by the buyer. Or they can defer them.
 
WDD said:
My expectation is that when I do retire and buy the plane I’ll fly it straight to the AP and have it sit for a month or two as they fix things. Test fly, find problem, repeat. Then off to the avionics shop simewhere in the US for another month or two to fix/ install avionics.
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Better plan. Have a good pre-buy to catch the big things. Fix the ones that NEED fixing. Then fly the plane. See what else needs to be fixed.

Expect a long list of things from the first annual. But even then, not EVERYTHING needs to be fixed right away.
 
When I bought earlier this year I called 15 shops before I could find a pre-buy; seller wanted it done on his field. The other shops (all 2 of them) could not commit to a prebuy that wasn't 4+ weeks out.

For maintenance, I'm using the same shop that did all 4 of our flying club planes (still a member.) He's generally booked several months out but makes efforts to keep planes flying if you're a customer. I hope he never retires...
 
T"Eldorado, post: 3285410, member: 41328"] Most important decision in airplane ownership is finding the right mechanic who you respect and he respects you. There are very few left. I might not trust many people I deal with, but I have to trust my mechanic or find one I do trust or sell the plane. [/QUOTE]

And yet all this trust doesn't equate to thr same hourly rate you would pay for an auto mechanic thats works on your car.

If shops charged $200 and hour and paid the MXs $50 or so then you would see more A&Ps.

Right now most FBOs are starting at $20/hr and regionals at $25.

Tell me again why i should risk my license and livelihood on every jabrony with no money and a busted 50 year old airplane???
 
Witmo said:
When I retired from the Air Force I went to community college and got the certificates needed to test for an A&P rating. I never intended to wrench for a living. The skills learned to get the A&P are basic. Today's aircraft are progressively becoming more and more "electronic" and each component manufacturer has their own proprietary designs which combine everything into one architecture which make it nearly impossible to troubleshoot without an electrical engineering degree. Back in the analog days of standalone VHF/VORs, ADFs, transponders and steam gauges, just about every A&P could work on every airplane. Nowadays you have to engage a specialist in that specific equipment and no two airplanes are alike. The avionics industry has pretty much screwed us all by gouging us on subscriptions for the data the tax payer pays for and requiring all service of their equipment to be by their own approved service centers. Welcome to the digital age.
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I think this is a good point. There are a lot of owners who claim to enjoy flying, but really enjoy cramming as many screens as possible in front of them. I'm not convinced that glass cockpits make GA much safer, but they surely make it more expensive and difficult to service.
 
bflynn said:
what liability? If they are inspecting, they have no liability for anything that is broken. Their liability comes from not doing their work to an industry standard. If it is as you suggest, no shop would ever take on a new customer. Shops not taking on a new customer is not driven by liability.

as far as bills that we will rant at, the bill should never be a surprise, but the work should also accurately find the right problem. If a shop is just guessing at the problem, they don’t k ow how to do their work and should lose customer.
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Lawyers don't care about that. Something happens and your in court.

Also and A&P CAN be on the hook for an AD that's 'at next service' or within X hours. A&Ps don't get notifications about ADs, we have to research them.

So if there is a wheel AD and you change a tire you can be on the hook for compliance.

So yes, an MX has a huge liability touching an AC they know nothing about.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
I think this is a good point. There are a lot of owners who claim to enjoy flying, but really enjoy cramming as many screens as possible in front of them. I'm not convinced that glass cockpits make GA much safer, but they surely make it more expensive and difficult to service.
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For situation awareness, glass can’t be beat.

You sound like every old guy I’ve met….next you’ll be yelling at me to get off your lawn.

Glass is the future, and if you plan on selling your plane to someone not getting a social security check, you’ll need glass to make it appealing.
 
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