HUGE INCREASE IN MOAs PLANNED...Please Help!!!

WDD said:
Horses having heart attacks. I checked out after that to be honest.
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USAF (Cannon AFB) tried to do the same in southern Colorado a few years ago, farmers and ranchers were the deciding factors, not GA. Result was a much smaller collection of MOAs.
 
Pilot101 said:
Fellow Aviators,

Can you please help us get the word out and fight this issue?

The Military is planning on expanding the geographic size and lower the height of the MOAs in central Arizona and New Mexico down to 500 AGL and this will negatively impact hundreds of airports and make if very difficult for GA pilots to circumnavigate these larger chunks of airspace.

Here is the map of the airspace that they want to increase:

https://www.arizonaregionalairspaceeis.com/overview-of-proposed-action/

This MOA increase is way bigger than the pilots who fly through or to the airports under the MOA. If you look at the Air Force map it affects a HUGE CHUNK of Arizona and New Mexico.

This will not just negatively impact GA pilots because the Air Force is wanting to allow sonic booms 24 hours a day in this expanded region so that means EVERYONE WHO LIVES/ VISITS/ HIKES/ RIDES/ DRIVES/ BOATS/ CAMPS UNDER THE MOA will be negatively impacted!!!

We have lots of ranchers and horse people and they are really concerned about their livestock getting heart attacks.

Can you imagine riding a horse and have a fighter jet scream 500 feet overhead at 600 MPH?

Can you imagine riding a motorcycle or out camping and have this happen?

This is a BIG DEAL that will affect hundreds of thousands of people each year so we are asking for the help of our fellow aviators to contact the Air Force and the elected officials (contact information below) and get the word out to stop this.

If you frequent other social media for hiking/ biking/ camping/ etc can you please post about this?

Does anyone have a connection with the AOPA/ EAA/ etc that can help?

Here is a write up that we would kindly ask that you share and act on. Please help!!!

We are ALL AFFECTED...SO WE SHOULD ALL SPEAK OUT!!!

--------------------------------------COPY---------------------------------------------------------


How would you like to be relaxing at home, on a drive, riding, or out camping and have an Air Force fighter jet roar 500 feet above your head at 600 MPH???

How would you like to hear a SONIC BOOM at any moment of the 24 HOUR DAY (you don’t know the boom is coming…just unexpectedly there is a VERY LOUD EXPLOSION all around you and it can break your windows)???

How would your animals like to experience this really loud and startling explosion? Would your animal have a heart attack? Would you...or the person driving your car/ motorcycle?

Well guess what???

The Air Force is wanting to GREATLY EXPAND their “Military Operations Area” (MOA) jet training areas outward and down to ONLY 500 FEET ABOVE THE GROUND in HUGE SECTIONS OF ARIZONA/ NEW MEXICO.



You think I am joking??? Here is the map of the airspace that they want to increase:

https://www.arizonaregionalairspaceeis.com/overview-of-proposed-action/



THIS AFFECTS EVERYONE WHO LIVES/ VISITS/ HIKES/ RIDES/ BOATS UNDER THE MOA!!!

PLEASE…THE PEOPLE OF CENTRAL ARIZONA/ WESTERN NEW MEXICO NEED TO FIGHT THIS!!!

EACH PERSON IN YOUR HOUSE…ALL YOUR NEIGHBORS…YOUR FRIENDS…YOUR RELATIVES ALL NEED TO HELP US AND CALL AND SEND AN EMAIL TO OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS TO STOP THIS!!!

Send this message to your friends who hike, camp, ride, boat, fly airplanes and post it on every forum you know.

Here is the contact websites for our federal representatives and Air Force so please CALL THEM and send them the attached letter:

AZ US Senator Mark Kelly: 602-671-7901 https://www.kelly.senate.gov/
AZ US Senator Kristen Sinema: (602) 598-7327 https://www.sinema.senate.gov/contact-kyrsten
AZ US Rep Paul Gosar: (928) 445-1683 https://gosar.house.gov/contact/

AZ US Rep Tom O’Halleran: 928-286-5338 https://ohalleran.house.gov/zip-code-lookup?form=/contact/email

AZ US Rep Raul Grijalva: (623) 536-3388 https://grijalva.house.gov/contact-raul/

AZ US Rep Ann Kirkpatrick: 520-881-3588 https://kirkpatrick.house.gov/contact/email-me/

NM Senator Martin Heinrich: (575) 523-6561 https://www.heinrich.senate.gov/contact/write-martin

NM Senator Ben Luján: 575-252-6188 https://www.lujan.senate.gov/contact/contact-form/

NM US Rep Yvette Herrell: (575) 323-6390 https://herrell.house.gov/contact

Military Website: https://www.arizonaregionalairspaceeis.com/comments/



Write:

NO On The Expansion Of The Military Operations Area In West-Central Arizona!



I am providing specific information relevant to the Proposed Action:

-The Air Force should take NO ACTION to modify or expand the MOA airspace.



-More jet noise will ruin the quiet enjoyment of our residential properties and camping/ riding/ boating/ hiking areas.

-Sonic booms sound like a large explosion and this noise will damage our homes and scare people, livestock, and wild animals.

-These MOA changes would greatly reduce our property values as rural residential property.

-There are 40 airports in the Gladden MOA alone that will be affected.

-The use and enjoyment of camping and hiking will be negatively affected by jet noise.

-How would these loud noises negatively affect the native species of birds, animals, reptiles, and insects?

-What kind of long term environmental impact studies have been conducted and what are the results?
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You can fly through the MOA’s vfr whenever you’d like. They do not limit your rights or your ability to go where you want, when you want.

Our Military needs MOA’s and IR Routes and AR Routes to train and maintain currency and recency and hone their skills and capabilities.

That way they can ensure that those airplanes you see overhead don’t have Red Stars on their wings.

Which would definitely limit your rights and abilities to go where you want, when you want.

There is a price for everything.
 
I was unaware that horses and cattle had high cholesterol problems and such that might lead to cardiac arrest!! They have got to stop eating bacon and all the other good stuff!

I really don't have much concern over MOA's, restricteds annoy me as I can't just fly through them even though they haven't been hot in numerous years.
 
orca64 said:
You can fly through the MOA’s vfr whenever you’d like. They do not limit your rights or your ability to go where you want, when you want.

Our Military needs MOA’s and IR Routes and AR Routes to train and maintain currency and recency and hone their skills and capabilities.

That way they can ensure that those airplanes you see overhead don’t have Red Stars on their wings.

Which would definitely limit your rights and abilities to go where you want, when you want.

There is a price for everything.
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We could cut down our military by about 50% or even 75% and still there would be enough of it left to make sure that no Red Star, Iron Cross other planes ever appear overhead.
 
Warmi said:
We could cut down our military by about 50% or even 75% and still there would be enough of it left to make sure that no Red Star, Iron Cross other planes ever appear overhead.
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If we were being threatened by Canada, sure. China, Russia ? Yeah - let’s keep it where us needs to be.
 
My ranchland is prob 30 nm SW of Dyess AFB. Bone traffic is most always high where I am, but the low level airspace above my land commonly has their C-130 and whatever Laughlin AFB is teaching their students in, T-1, T-6, T-38 flying in random directions and there are no marked MTRs or MOA here reflecting that. They're obviously doing drop zone ingress/egress or traffic routes for arrivals/departures.
Best place to get info on what is going on are the maps the AFBs often provide in handouts at local FBOs. Their local area "Midair Collision Avoidance Handbook" shows more info than I can find elsewhere.

Perhaps expanding the MOAs or whatever is going to make the DOD use of airspace more honest and obvious for areas of shared airspace.
 
Wagondriver said:
I was unaware that horses and cattle had high cholesterol problems and such that might lead to cardiac arrest!! They have got to stop eating bacon and all the other good stuff!
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I think it is the smokin' and drinkin' that is doing them in...
 
For a two front war - yeah, let’s add more to the budget.
 
Warmi said:
Don’t you think there is a bit of maneuvering room between “cutting the DOD budget completely” and spending more than “the next 11 countries combined” ?
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Not really. Our capabilities far exceed any other country. There’s no getting rid of the MIC so just deal with it. Finally, when you compare our DoD budget as a percentage of GDP (historically) it’s not that surprising.
 
Living by Brush Creek / Buckeye MOAs I can assure you there is no danger to wildlife and ruminants from a MOA. Every time I drove out past Hillsboro I have to dodge deer that are alive and well, and overcrowding their own environment.
 
I do consider a lot of the R- designated airspace fairly inefficient. The good news is that the controlling frequencies are publicly available/listed, and for some of them, it's well worth going through the effort of calling up and asking to cut through when cold. For MOAs, that horse has already been beaten on here.... before it had a heart attack of course.
drums-troll.gif

:D
 
Country Flier said:
Imagine a military that's unprepared for action....
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I mean, not that it matters to the thread, but we really weren't prepared for WW2. Or 1. Or the civil war. Or Korea. And those worked out roughly OK, more or less. We thought we were prepared for Vietnam, but turns out not so much.

We have a habit of preparing for the wrong things.

Back to the thread, I don't think an increase in MOA's has anything to do with being prepared, but rather just about figuring out how to spend money. Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't believe that the folks in charge care about much more than preserving their budgets.
 
Zeldman said:
Of course....everyone knows how much more healthy venison is over beef...:lol::lol:
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I agree it's good. But the time I hit one, there was no usable meat left and at $6400 damage the price per pound for that meat would've been ridiculous unfortunately.
 
Anyone who has driven highway 95 or 375 in Nevada has likely seen fighter jets at 500 feet, sometimes less, going 400+ kts. These are in MOAs and are not very compatible with typical GA traffic.
 
Wagondriver said:
restricteds annoy me as I can't just fly through them even though they haven't been hot in numerous years.
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Not true, you can fly through a restricted area anytime it's not hot; just call the local ATC and ask status. Prohibited areas (which aren't usually for military stuff) can't ever be flown through.

Warmi said:
We could cut down our military by about 50% or even 75% and still there would be enough of it left to make sure that no Red Star, Iron Cross other planes ever appear overhead.
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That is false.
 
There’s no IMC in those areas...is there?

-Feeling the winter grays
 
Albany Tom said:
We have a habit of preparing for the wrong things.

Back to the thread, I don't think an increase in MOA's has anything to do with being prepared, but rather just about figuring out how to spend money. Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't believe that the folks in charge care about much more than preserving their budgets.
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Completely agree with your first point. For example, we were trying to acquire a ridiculous light, unarmored, COIN aircraft as late as a few years ago (which notably killed a couple of our bros in testing not long ago). The early 2000's called and asked to get their war back. The 20-teens were a decade of missing the writing on the wall with respect to global security......that isn't just DoD, it was also the elected leadership, career public servants, etc. Call it institutional inertia or whatever.

Your second point I would disagree with. On the contrary, I think this is a rare example of senior leadership actually listening to the guys/gals out flying the line. This has absolutely been a priority for us in the last few years. I also don't imagine that expanding a line on a map is the most efficient way we could waste money :)
 
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Warmi said:
We could cut down our military by about 50% or even 75% and still there would be enough of it left to make sure that no Red Star, Iron Cross other planes ever appear overhead.
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But only if we stopped playing world policeman and fighting other people’s wars for them. If our Department of Defense was truly only that, which it should be, we could easily do with much less. It's amazing how many countries spend much less in war machinery and troop size but still have clear skies free of those evil no good red stars. Typically the biggest advocates for keeping the defense budget at its extreme high level are those who make a living off of it or those who are enamored with war.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
This doesn't show MOAs.
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Go ahead and post a more thorough map. I selected all options including times but it did look a bit sparse.

And the point remains, many times we are forced to circumnavigate widely to complete a trip. Often, it seems, into weather.

Going through an active MOA? Plenty of past threads here where people say we should never interfere with mil ops by doing that. If they are hot, it is going to be safest to avoid the MOA.

Just remember, once a group gets a hold of airspace, they do not return it. It's a one-way street and over the years, there has been and will continue to be less and less unencumbered airspace. Need to fight it now, if you want your grandchildren to be able to fly across the country.
 
nauga said:
It looks like the criteria was set to only show active or soon-to-be active areas. There are huge chunks of SUA not shown, including the giant R-2508 complex over China Lake/Edwards.

Nauga,
under, over, and through
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I noticed it didn't show any of the permanently activated restricted areas, either. But everything else on there is an active or soon-to-be active MOA, Warning, or Alert area. Plus I'm sure others I didn't look at.
 
Sierra_Hotel said:
I noticed it didn't show any of the permanently activated restricted areas, either. But everything else on there is an active or soon-to-be active MOA, Warning, or Alert area. Plus I'm sure others I didn't look at.
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Yup we've ascertained it needs updating.
If I have time I will look at it again.
If you want to fix it, don't hold back.

Certainly it's not the biggest threat to free flight but it definitely deserves our attention. Many countries have zero or almost no skies available for GA. Hard to imagine the US being that way but there have been many things happen that I've thought were unlikely.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
…
View attachment 104657
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Aside from the other noted comments re: SUAs, a vertical profile would be more informative.

Here’s what’s “active” in a birds eye view on the Texas gulf coast right now and looks ominous.
aaaceb45c2a3fbd7e116f007669d0736.jpg


Vertical profile
7434e79d236e3860c28607725a024195.jpg




And what’s actually flying out of Truax field, most of which is >6k ft.
487ccea765f299d593e1c9f345ae8481.jpg


That’s a very similar story across almost all SUA. It’s there for the asking.
 
EvilEagle said:
Not true, you can fly through a restricted area anytime it's not hot; just call the local ATC and ask status. Prohibited areas (which aren't usually for military stuff) can't ever be flown through.

That is false.
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I understand that I can fly through the restricteds when they are not hot. But, I usually forget about them until I am in the air, and at 300' I can't get them on the radio. Last week I was flying into CNY from the south west, I needed to cross the restricted. I had to climb to nearly 11,000 to get them on the radio.
 
35 AoA said:
Completely agree with your first point. For example, we were trying to acquire a ridiculous light, unarmored, COIN aircraft as late as a few years ago (which notably killed a couple of our bros in testing not long ago). The early 2000's called and asked to get their war back. The 20-teens were a decade of missing the writing on the wall with respect to global security......that isn't just DoD, it was also the elected leadership, career public servants, etc. Call it institutional inertia or whatever.

Your second point I would disagree with. On the contrary, I think this is a rare example of senior leadership actually listening to the guys/gals out flying the line. This has absolutely been a priority for us in the last few years. I also don't imagine that expanding a line on a map is the most efficient way we could waste money :)
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You could be right. They might be doing something for the right reason. My experience tells me that it's more likely being done because someone likes selling them jet fuel, or spare parts, service for the aircraft, or something else.
 
Back when I worked for Intel we flew shuttles (ERJ-135s) from San Jose and Hillsboro to the Phoenix area on a regular basis. I'll guarantee that they were IFR (at those altitudes they had no choice) and I don't recall ever being diverted due to a hot MOA. And I doubt that the airlines are impacted, as well.
 
Albany Tom said:
You could be right. They might be doing something for the right reason. My experience tells me that it's more likely being done because someone likes selling them jet fuel, or spare parts, service for the aircraft, or something else.
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Bear with me, but I am failing to connect a larger local SUA with buying more fuel/spare parts/service. Bigger SUA =/= more flights/flight hours. We would be flying/maintaining the same amount of jets the same amount of time, with the same amount of fuel, regardless of whether SUA expansions go forward or not. It is a question of how to maximize the training value of those precious flight hours that we are already paying for. The current SUA structure, nationally, does not support training to realistic, modern threats.

Again, not saying that there aren't valid counterpoints. But this isn't some conspiracy to grab more money. It is a real demand signal being sent to senior leadership, by all of us trying to train the next generation of aviators in advanced tactics.
 
Ghery said:
Back when I worked for Intel we flew shuttles (ERJ-135s) from San Jose and Hillsboro to the Phoenix area on a regular basis. I'll guarantee that they were IFR (at those altitudes they had no choice) and I don't recall ever being diverted due to a hot MOA. And I doubt that the airlines are impacted, as well.
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When weather in the SFO and/or RNO region was bad, Oakland center would routinely cap our airspace out in Fallon at FL300 or even lower, to allow 121 ops to transit above.
 
35 AoA said:
When weather in the SFO and/or RNO region was bad, Oakland center would routinely cap our airspace out in Fallon at FL300 or even lower, to allow 121 ops to transit above.
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Interesting. Our shuttles were Part 91 flights. Just operated like 121 (except we didn't have to mess with TSA nonsense).
 
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