How to talk to non-pilots

kimberlyanne546 said:
I do not, nor will I ever, mix work with flying. Work is what pays for my hobby, though I often work a second job to support it. Not that anything would happen to me / us, but I just don't want it coming back to me. I don't believe in personal relationships with people that I meet through work in any way, shape, or form. It just gets ugly.
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I understand.
 
Besides, I don't need to "convert" people or force GA on them. I have a family member who, in real life, FREAKS OUT if my dog coughs or something and recently this family member asked about airplane rides. I refused, saying that this family member would have to drive to and from my airport (this family member didn't want to even do that). I also reminded this person that we may hear or see things that are "scary" to a non pilot and there are FULL CONTROLS on the right side. It is MY CHOICE who I take up in a plane and I don't think I'm at the level where I want to have a bad flight due to something completely out of my control. Never thought I would turn down a passenger but in this case I think it is for the best. I like safety.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Besides, I don't need to "convert" people or force GA on them. I have a family member who, in real life, FREAKS OUT if my dog coughs or something and recently this family member asked about airplane rides. I refused, saying that this family member would have to drive to and from my airport (this family member didn't want to even do that). I also reminded this person that we may hear or see things that are "scary" to a non pilot and there are FULL CONTROLS on the right side. It is MY CHOICE who I take up in a plane and I don't think I'm at the level where I want to have a bad flight due to something completely out of my control. Never thought I would turn down a passenger but in this case I think it is for the best. I like safety.
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Good attitude.
 
You know, recently my older relatives have started elbowing me at weddings and telling me "You're next."

I've started doing the same to them at funerals.

(It did not help matters when the GF caught the bouquet at my brother's wedding, btw)
 
‘Security is mostly superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. To keep our faces toward change and behave like free spirits in the presence of fate is strength undefeatable.’
— Helen Keller
 
Bottom line - why are you condesending to talk to these people at all? Why would you care? It's bad enough that you hang out here were low life baby eating sport pilot scum are tolerated. But talking to members of the great unwashed masses? Really?
 
I usually say something like "well I always stay out of bad weather and I only fly well maintained airplanes". That's the best you can do because the person you're talking to isn't interested in flying and probably never will be. They're interested in your well-being.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Bottom line - why are you condesending to talk to these people at all? Why would you care? It's bad enough that you hang out here were low life baby eating sport pilot scum are tolerated. But talking to members of the great unwashed masses? Really?
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Your posts crack me up. Especially your tag line at the bottom (Bad Example...). :rofl:
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I already don't like that answer. I rode motorcyles and quit due to everyone dying or having life-long injuries. Motorcycles are dangerous.
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Sorry, but I can't agree with that. I've been riding motorcycles for over
forty years and have had no problems in over a quarter of a million
miles of driving in New Jersey traffic, some of the worst in the country.
I've also taught many friends to ride and they are all fine too.
Also taught my brother to ride back in the sixties. No problems
there either.
I'm thinking you knew a bunch of poorly trained motorcyclists, Kimberly.
Just like flying, the most important thing in motorcycling is situational
awareness and never getting complacent by thinking that the car
driver sees you. ('cause he probably doesn't!):nono:
 
Palmpilot said:
My answer: "A lot of private plane crashes come from pilots doing dumb stuff, so I try really hard to avoid doing dumb stuff."
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Not sure if this is strictly true or not, but I tell them that the most common problem causing off-airport landings is running out of fuel. Then I get into a discussion of how preventable that is. Then a discussion of how bad weather affects my go-no go decision. Finally concluding that GA safety is really mostly up to the pilot.

-Skip
 
I don't say anything besides a shrug and "thanks, yeah, I'm careful". I don't explain to people how safe flying is bcause I would be lying. It's not safe, I manage the risks to a point I deem acceptable. There are other people who will never deem the risks I do as acceptable and there is not a thing I can do to convince them otherwise so I don't even try.
 
Speak slowly and use small words? I've given up trying to convince people that flying is reasonably safe, reasonably doable by just about everyone assuming you've the means and isn't just some environmentally destructive pastime for the rich and famous. If you've got the gene...you've got the gene. If you don't flying is probably just background noise to you.
 
A decade ago, I was one of those great unwashed. I spent months reading the daily list of NTSB probable cause reports on the old safetydata.com site, and concluded it was mostly poor decisions/complacency among pilots. I completed a Part 141 ground school and had my private ASEL knowledge test done before I ever started flight training, figuring I'd explored the dark corners to the best of my ability.

Statistically, if you strive to avoid stall/spin, VFR into IMC, and fuel management goofs your risk of a fatal accident plummets.
 
PW_Plack said:
A decade ago, I was one of those great unwashed. I spent months reading the daily list of NTSB probable cause reports on the old safetydata.com site, and concluded it was mostly poor decisions/complacency among pilots. I completed a Part 141 ground school and had my private ASEL knowledge test done before I ever started flight training, figuring I'd explored the dark corners to the best of my ability.

Statistically, if you strive to avoid stall/spin, VFR into IMC, and fuel management goofs your risk of a fatal accident plummets.
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Welcome to PoA, Paul!

And, of course, striving to avoid these and actually succeeding are two different things, but awareness and training go a long way.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I already don't like that answer. I rode motorcyles and quit due to everyone dying or having life-long injuries. Motorcycles are dangerous.
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I think the best answer is along the lines of: "In a car or on a motorcycle my safety is at least as much the result of other's actions vs when flying it's almost entirely up to me. Therefore I can be just as safe as I want to be when flying but have much less control over safety when driving a car or riding a motorcycle.

With one exception (an adult who shunned helmets and killed himself when he dumped his bike on a curve) every person I've know that's been killed or seriously injured on a bike had an accident caused by the driver of another vehicle that failed to see the motorcycle and either pulled out right in front of it or turned across the bike's path from the opposite direction.
 
Fast n' Furious said:
Speak slowly and use small words? I've given up trying to convince people that flying is reasonably safe, reasonably doable by just about everyone assuming you've the means and isn't just some environmentally destructive pastime for the rich and famous. If you've got the gene...you've got the gene. If you don't flying is probably just background noise to you.
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Do you really believe any of that is true? Outside the very limited utility/business market, GA is lead spewing luxury pastime that has no purpose except recreation, and it is really only available to those of above average means in the US. You really need to have a spare $12,000 a year to afford aviation without making sacrifices. If you want to own any plane and really fly it around a couple hundred hours a year, that's going to cost $12,000 in expenses (not counting capital costs) for something like a 150/152/Tomahawk @ 6GPH & $4.50gal fuel, modest but reasonable maintenance numbers, cheap hangar/medium high tie down and cheap insurance ($20k airplane doesn't cost much to cover) or about $60hr for a 200hr year (again, this doesn't count in the airplane cost/value at all except for the engine hourly depreciation to TBO value).

If you 'have the gene' that is one thing, but don't try to BS people who don't have this genetic defect that makes us want to fly. When you try to use the same irrational rationalizations with them as you use on yourself and among other like inflicted individuals, they quickly spot your defect and label you as such. If you actually believe any of what you said, you need to do a bit of reality checking, because flying is quite hazardous. People say it is on par with motorcycles because of the death toll statistic, but that's kinda misleading, it's actually much worse!!! When you consider that Flying and Motorcycling carry the same fatality per mile statistic and then apply 'hazards encountered per mile traveled', you will see that motorcycles manage to avoid making hazard to accident conversions at a much higher rate. The chances that you will make a good decision when faced with a bad situation are worse than those in most things in your life with ultimate outcome potential in your hands alone. Now, the primary cause of failure in either MC or AC accident is operator error, the real truth is it is not something everyone can do, at least not well. The good thing is that the desire to fly is a genetic abnormality and at this point not nearly everyone has the desire.
 
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I ask them the following questions:

"How many hours did you pay for professional training to drive your car last year?"

They look stunned and say, "none".

"Are you required to drive with a professional instructor every two years or log various driving courses continuously to keep your driver's license?"

"No."

"Does your State still have mandatory vehicle Safety inspections Annually, and if they do, is your car impounded and unusable on the spot until you pay the mechanic to fix it or get a special permit to tow it across town?"

(Usually not.)

That sets the correct footing. Then you talk about the real risks from there.
 
denverpilot said:
I ask them the following questions:

"How many hours did you pay for professional training to drive your car last year?"

They look stunned and say, "none".
"Are you required to drive with a professional instructor every two years or log various driving courses continuously to keep your driver's license?"

"No."

"Does your State still have mandatory vehicle Safety inspections Annually, and if they do, is your car impounded and unusable on the spot until you pay the mechanic to fix it or get a special permit to tow it across town?"

(Usually not.)

That sets the correct footing. Then you talk about the real risks from there.
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Not really because the conversation ends at the strike trough most of the time....
 
denverpilot said:
I ask them the following questions...
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One more for the list:

"Is the highway traffic system organized to keep you at least 2,000 feet away from other vehicles whenever you're moving?"

(How safe would motorcycles be if that were the case!)
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I do not, nor will I ever, mix work with flying. Work is what pays for my hobby, though I often work a second job to support it. Not that anything would happen to me / us, but I just don't want it coming back to me. I don't believe in personal relationships with people that I meet through work in any way, shape, or form. It just gets ugly.
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It doesn't have to.

I sometimes took a couple of my supervisors for a $100 hamburger lunch, making it VERY clear it was optional. It didn't hurt that one of them was a lapsed CFI. I also took one of the company VP's for a ride in the 182 and we spent an afternoon at a grass field watching skydivers do their thing.

Some managers take their employees or bosses on a picnic or a golf outing. I took them for an airplane ride. On the 4th of July one year, I parked a 172 at the freight dock and gave rides, between grilling burgers and brats. Not every employee was interested, but some of them put their kids in the plane. I considered that the ultimate sign of trust.

Sometimes I would call the tower to see if anyone was interested in riding around the pattern a few times with one of the airline managers. Usually, someone was.

I did have an unusual relationship with the folks. In my smaller cities we were more like family. I was there when they got married, when they had their kids, when they put their parents in the ground. Giving some of them their layoff letters was one of the hardest things I've ever done.

Your idea of clearly separating personal and business life makes a lot of sense and has a great deal of merit, but every situation is different.
 
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I am not convinced we can get through to people by intellectualizing the conversation on safety. (they usually gloss over, or are disbelieving as noted previously)

It might just be better to say, "I understand and accept there are additional risks....but the tremendous joy and pleasure it brings me far outweighs those risks."
 
I think Henning has largely nailed this one. I believe what he says is mostly accurate. Although, I do think a small portion of us use their planes for business travel, it IS recreational for the most part.

Oh, and stop thinking you're "special" or "different" because you have a little piece of plastic that says you are allowed to fly a plane. It really isn't that big of a deal.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I am not convinced we can get through to people by intellectualizing the conversation on safety. (they usually gloss over, or are disbelieving as noted previously)

It might just be better to say, "I understand and accept there are additional risks....but the tremendous joy and pleasure it brings me far outweighs those risks."
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Exactly, trying to intellectualize safety of flying is a waste of time.
 
You sound like more of a freak trying to justify it. Just shrug and let it be, or better claim you live for the danger and call them sissies.
 
Henning said:
Exactly, trying to intellectualize safety of flying is a waste of time.
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I'd say that's generally true but quite dependent on your audience. I've run into folks with several different attitudes towards personal flying. Some are practically horrified that anyone would consider going up in a small plane for any reason. Some are more concerned about this kind of "wasteful, environmentally damaging, and useless activity" and simply consider the potential for personal harm to be quite secondary to their perceived potential harm to others. And IME almost anyone in either of those groups is going to modify their negative opinions about flying one iota as a result of the most logical, fact based treatise on the merits and safety of personal flying.

But I've also encountered many people who are either more open minded or even mildly interested in pursuing their own aviation interests and genuinely want to learn more about the relative safety of flying a small airplane vs other activities they consider acceptable from someone who's actually involved. For that group, a discussion of the opportunities to improve one's own chances isn't an argument that can't be won.
 
Kimberly, I get the same question all the time. I guess we all do. My standard response is that I worry a lot more when I am driving on the highway and some idiot is tailgating me or passing me on the right, or I see someone texting, reading, putting on makeup or shaving than I do when I am flying a well maintained aircraft in the sky with other well trained pilots.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Besides, I don't need to "convert" people or force GA on them. I have a family member who, in real life, FREAKS OUT if my dog coughs or something and recently this family member asked about airplane rides. I refused, saying that this family member would have to drive to and from my airport (this family member didn't want to even do that). I also reminded this person that we may hear or see things that are "scary" to a non pilot and there are FULL CONTROLS on the right side. It is MY CHOICE who I take up in a plane and I don't think I'm at the level where I want to have a bad flight due to something completely out of my control. Never thought I would turn down a passenger but in this case I think it is for the best. I like safety.
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Absolutely correct. Good call.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I do not, nor will I ever, mix work with flying. Work is what pays for my hobby, though I often work a second job to support it. Not that anything would happen to me / us, but I just don't want it coming back to me. I don't believe in personal relationships with people that I meet through work in any way, shape, or form. It just gets ugly.
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I usually adhere to this rule, but broke it two weeks ago. A young home builder who I am talking to about a project asked me about flying. I gave him the usual answers then he said he wanted to learn how to fly. I thought this was just a ploy to get on my good side, but he surprized me. He had researched my RV-10 & -12 and knew all about them. Cruise speed, useful load, fuel capacity, range, etc. :eek:

We have been flying twice. He is hooked!
 
If you combine Henning and Anthony you pretty much have the picture. Actually if you could pull turbine aircraft (as I mentioned earlier) out of general aviation then motorcycles would be safer. I and my wife both own and ride street bikes. Hopefully by staying out of small piston planes it will offset the risk on the motorcycles.:rofl::dunno:
 
Jim Logajan said:
On a per-hour basis, flying a small plane is about as dangerous as riding a motorcycle.

I think if one feels the need to provide any comparably dangerous activity to someone who states some concern, that may be the one. They may not like that answer either, of course.
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kimberlyanne546 said:
I already don't like that answer. I rode motorcyles and quit due to everyone dying or having life-long injuries. Motorcycles are dangerous.
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Kimberly- one reason for the similar safety statistics between morotcycles and light planes is "stupid pilot tricks" like flying into IFR weather when not rated and prepared for it, running out of fuel, doing low-level flying and flying the plane into the ground, and so forth.

You don't seem to be the type type to do those sort of things, so your safety statistics will probably be better compared to riding a motorcycle.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
You don't seem to be the type type to do those sort of things, so your safety statistics will probably be better compared to riding a motorcycle.
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Pilots are the type who do those sorts of things. Sure is nice to self exclude ourselves from statistics but reality begs to differ. :yikes:
 
ClimbnSink said:
Pilots are the type who do those sorts of things. Sure is nice to self exclude ourselves from statistics but reality begs to differ. :yikes:
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I'm sorry- I don't understand the point you are making.

I do know that the "stupid pilot tricks" I mentioned are in the statistics. I know that it doesn't take much work for me to avoid making those same mistakes.

I also know I'm not any better than a lot of pilots. I won't fly PIC in a retractable plane because I realize I'll likely forget to lower the gear. I have, at times, forgotten the GUMPS check on landing and I've stayed out of trouble because I fly very simple aircraft where I'd be in trouble in a more complex plane.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Pilots are the type who do those sorts of things. Sure is nice to self exclude ourselves from statistics but reality begs to differ. :yikes:
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As I've said before, I'd rather die knowing it's my own fault than die because some idiot in a truck runs over me.

Of course, my wife and I ride motorcycles, fly small planes, and drive fast cars.
 
You can't fly GA and declare yourself exempt from GA statistics. Same as saying: I only smoke cigarettes on weekends/after a drink/don't inhale/etc so the cancer statistics don't apply to me...
Those retarded pilots that crash doing stupid things are you and me.
 
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