How to search for a "Direct To" instruction fix

[Shawn]

I am gonna throw this question out there under the "license to learn" category and hopefully not be missing something painfully obvious...

When you receive a "cleared direct to..." instruction that you are not expecting and unfamiliar with, what is the best way to proceed?

Let me set up the scenario. VFR pilot, not yet instrument rated. Have on board Foreflight and a 430. Very comfortable talking to ATC and working in the "system". Was exiting a LAX Bravo VFR transition route on flight following enroute to Fullerton. Have flown it probably a dozen times and used to getting a few different options and routing, especially flying over Long Beach.

This time, as I exited Bravo, controller gave me "cleared direct Seal Beach VOR then Fullerton"...thought to myself "well, s#!t, that's a new one"...then thought...gonna start IFR training lets figure this out. Usually get a visual reporting point then direct, which I am more familiar with being VFR...and fully willing to accept to get though Long Beach's airspace.

Through the process, I realized that he thought I was IFR, not VFR but I still had to find Seal Beach pronto. Not knowing the Seal Beach identifier...let alone no idea where it really even is as I am not from So Cal, what is the proper way to proceed? Is there a way to search in foreflight VOR's or something along the lines of "nearest" in the 430 for VOR's without knowing the three letter identifer? My first attempts came up with "no joy" searching "seal beach" in Foreflight.

...or is just asking for the identifier the best and fastest course of action?

Asking is what I did but thought with all this technology, I feel like I should be able to pull something easy like that up fairly rapidly...what am I missing?

I realize I was VFR and not really under obligation to comply being outside the B, C an D airspace, but that is not the point.

 

[poadeleted21]

I am gonna throw this question out there under the "license to learn" category and hopefully not be missing something painfully obvious...

When you receive a "cleared direct to..." instruction that you are not expecting and unfamiliar with, what is the best way to proceed?

Let me set up the scenario. VFR pilot, not yet instrument rated. Have on board Foreflight and a 430. Very comfortable talking to ATC and working in the "system". Was exiting a LAX Bravo VFR transition route on flight following enroute to Fullerton. Have flown it probably a dozen times and used to getting a few different options and routing, especially flying over Long Beach.

This time, as I exited Bravo, controller gave me "cleared direct Seal Beach VOR then Fullerton"...thought to myself "well, s#!t, that's a new one"...then thought...gonna start IFR training lets figure this out. Usually get a visual reporting point then direct, which I am more familiar with being VFR...and fully willing to accept to get though Long Beach's airspace.

Through the process, I realized that he though I was IFR, not VFR but I still had to find Seal Beach pronto. Not knowing the Seal Beach identifier...let alone no idea where it really even is as I am not from So Cal, what is the proper way to proceed? Is there a way to search in foreflight VOR's or something along the lines of "nearest" in the 430 for VOR's without knowing the three letter identifer? My first attempts came up with "no joy" searching "seal beach" in Foreflight.

...or is just asking for the identifier the best and fastest course of action?

Asking is what I did but thought with all this technology, I feel like I should be able to pull something like that up fairly rapidly...what am I missing?

I realize I was VFR and not really under obligation to comply being outside the B, C an D airspace, but that is not the point.

I'd ask the controller.

 

[jesse]

I just ask the controller for the identifier, if it seems urgent I will ask for a suggested heading and the identifier.

Yes I could search through things but I want the controller to know immediately that I can't turn on course immediately since I don't know where it is.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Ask for a vector. That'll get you on course, and give you an idea of where to look on the chart.

 

[FORANE]

As you did - asking the identifier is easiest sometimes.
Not familiar with foreflight so I cannot comment on it.
Garmin series has nearest functions but they are limited in my experience.
I use Anywhere map which allows for a search of nearest by type identifier be it vor or airport etc. Their list is extensive.

 

[coloradobluesky]

"Say Seal Beach letter id please"

 

[coloradobluesky]

As a heads up, the VOR page may have a place to put the VOR name and then it gives the letter id. It's a bit of time consuming crap shoot to do it this way, but if it exists, you should know how. You might need it someday.

 

[LDJones]

...or is just asking for the identifier the best and fastest course of action?

Yes.

Then type it into ForeFlight and start heading that direction while you update the 430 flight plan...while watching for traffic.

 

[jordane93]

Yes asking for the identifier is the easiest way to do it. The 430 has a nearest page where you can scroll through pages of the nearest NAVAID's so that's another way of looking it up. Another easy way is just looking it up in the trusty sectional

 

[Shawn]

As a heads up, the VOR page may have a place to put the VOR name and then it gives the letter id. It's a bit of time consuming crap shoot to do it this way, but if it exists, you should know how. You might need it someday.

That is what I was looking for hoping there was an answer somewhere between needing to ask for something as easy as a VOR and taking the time to randomly scan a chart to find it, which I know you do NOT have time for when receiving an instruction.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

"I'm unfamiliar, what's the identifier?"

When I work the ramp, it drives me up the wall when airplanes come in and readback my instructions, don't follow them (at all) and then get upset. I then ask if they're familiar with KATL. I always get, "no." If you're not familiar, tell me. I won't look down on you. I'd rather it be that way so I can move you more effectively.

 

[mondtster]

Having never flown in SoCal I found the Seal Beach VOR in less than 30 seconds on a VFR chart. Did you give it a quick look?

If things are too busy to take a quick look I'd ask for a heading, point the airplane in the direction they want you to go, and ask for the identifier or frequency of the VOR. You can figure out where you are on your way to the station then.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'd start by asking for a vector to get started while I got the VOR loaded in my system (VOR or GPS). If I had a GPS but didn't know the 3-letter identifier, I'd ask for that. If I didn't have a GPS, I'd ask the controller for the frequency for my VOR. No controller worth the powder to blow him/her up will give you any flak over that. After that, it should be easy.

 

[Shawn]

Having never flown in SoCal I found the Seal Beach VOR in less than 30 seconds on a VFR chart. Did you give it a quick look?

If things are too busy to take a quick look I'd ask for a heading, point the airplane in the direction they want you to go, and ask for the identifier or frequency of the VOR. You can figure out where you are on your way to the station then.

Yes...and again, it was not a situation of "unable" to find it but rather the question of how to find it using the technology available in the cockpit...and sounds like short of possibly using the nearest navaid feature in the 430, asking is the only option.

 

[flyingron]

Asking controllers for identifiers for VOR names or spellings of intersections is not uncommon. Some of the intersections have non obvious spellings for the pronunciation and neither my IFR GPS nor the software on my IPAD has a "sounds like" feature.

 

[Henning]

Dude, seriously? You can't point your plane VFR at Long Beach from there? Turn to Signal Hill and you will be headed basically for Seal Beach VOR. You should know that airspace by heart by now.

 

[EdFred]

More evidence that technology is eroding certain skills.

 

[Shawn]

Ease up there attack dogs and re-read the actual question...

Dude, seriously? You can't point your plane VFR at Long Beach from there? Turn to Signal Hill and you will be headed basically for Seal Beach VOR. You should know that airspace by heart by now.

Seriously? Just pointing my plane to Long Beach was NOT the instruction given. I would hope that you don't just make up your actions regardless of what ATC tells ya. Don't live there and never have had to use Seal Beach VOR for flight planning a VFR trip down there yet. SMO and LAX VOR's however I can fly to just looking out the window.

More evidence that technology is eroding certain skills.

And what part are you misreading that leads to that statement? First action I took was ask...and received the identifier, entered it into the GPS and was on my way. THEN looked at the chart for a visual reference. The question of "what am I missing?" was how to USE the technology to enhance the situational awareness and find the fix expeditiously, not sure how that is "eroding" skills.

 

[EdFred]

And what part are you misreading that leads to that statement? First action I took was ask...and received the identifier, entered it into the GPS and was on my way. THEN looked at the chart for a visual reference. The question of "what am I missing?" was how to USE the technology to enhance the situational awareness and find the fix expeditiously, not sure how that is "eroding" skills.

Because you are immediately looking to put things in the "magic box" rather than look at the chart, see whatever VOR it was you were told to head to, make a turn to get you approximately on course, and then worrying about the magic box. The magic box doesn't fly the plane.

Not only that, hell it's a VOR, dial in the frequency on the chart, turn till the needle centers, and fly the VOR.

Magic boxes erode simple navigation skills.

This is why none of my students get to use GPS until the last 1/3 of their training. VFR = eyes outside, not eyes on the magic box.

 

[poadeleted20]

Because you are immediately looking to put things in the "magic box" rather than look at the chart, see whatever VOR it was you were told to head to,

It isn't always quite as easy to do that as you make it sound if you aren't familiar with the area, especially if you're hand-flying the plane in the weather. It's probably easier with a VOR, but when they start giving intersections, it may not even be on the L-chart you're using or any approach chart you plan to use.

 

[EdFred]

It isn't always quite as easy to do that as you make it sound if you aren't familiar with the area, especially if you're hand-flying the plane in the weather. It's probably easier with a VOR, but when they start giving intersections, it may not even be on the L-chart you're using or any approach chart you plan to use.

I am completely unfamiliar with the LAX area. I opened up SkyVector, and the second VOR I saw was Seal Beach. The first was LAX. It was literally less than 5 seconds from the time I opened "the chart" and I wasn't even making the flight.

If I'm unfamiliar with the area, I make myself familiar with the area before yelling "Clear!" Worse yet, the OP says he has flown into Fullerton maybe a dozen times. And he doesn't know that FUL is inside the VOR rose for....wait for it....Seal Beach. And this wasn't a flight in the weather, it was a VFR pilot going to an airport that's maybe 6 miles from the VOR.

The magic box is absolutely killing navigation skills.

 

[poadeleted20]

I am completely unfamiliar with the LAX area. I opened up SkyVector, and the second VOR I saw was Seal Beach. The first was LAX. It was literally less than 5 seconds from the time I opened "the chart" and I wasn't even making the flight.

If I'm unfamiliar with the area, I make myself familiar with the area before yelling "Clear!" Worse yet, the OP says he has flown into Fullerton maybe a dozen times. And he doesn't know that FUL is inside the VOR rose for....wait for it....Seal Beach.

I realize that your own opinion of your own skills is extremely high, but my concern is for the more average pilot. Based on my own experiences flying everywhere from the South China Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean, I am not so confident that most pilots flying single-pilot IFR outside their local flying area can find every possible fix that fast. So, I'll stick with my advice -- if you don't know where it is as soon as you're given the clearance, ask for a vector to get started and any other help to locate it on the proper chart.

 

[EdFred]

I realize that your own opinion of your own skills is extremely high, but my concern is for the more average pilot. Based on my own experiences flying everywhere from the South China Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean, I am not so confident that most pilots flying single-pilot IFR outside their local flying area can find every possible fix that fast. So, I'll stick with my advice -- if you don't know where it is as soon as you're given the clearance, ask for a vector to get started and any other help to locate it on the proper chart.

IFR flights, yeah, fixes are a pain in the ass to find. Especially when you get one that's a hundred plus miles away, or you get a controller that doesn't enunciate. First time into LOM I got "BUNCH" intersection, well there is no BUNCH intersection near LOM, there's a BUNTS. A quick convo resolved that.

But we aren't talking IFR flights. We're talking a VFR pilot heading into an airport he's been to a dozen times with a VOR that's within spitting distance, and the first reaction is to put it into the magic box. Come on.

 

[Shawn]

As Ron mentioned...yeah it is easy in the comfort of your chair...and again...this is not a question of lack of ability to find a VOR that I am literally sitting on...but moving forward into IFR training, how best to proceed in locating unfamiliar nav aids when instructed in a high workload situation. That is why I said re-read the original question...and guess I should have clarified the CONTEXT as well. What if that VOR was 50 miles away?...is taking the time to scan the chart looking while ATC is EXPECTING you to be on that course the best way to proceeded...obviously not but that seems to be what some are suggesting.

The answer that has emerged is to "ask" first and always if unfamiliar.

..and yes, I have flown into Fullerton a dozen times but have never had to use Seal Bach as a nav aid in my flight plan or planning. When flying through LA airspace, the VFR visual reporting points are far more critical and are referenced more for VFR flights with ATC.

 

[mondtster]

One thing that is interesting about this thread is that everyone seems more concerned about knowing the identifier than they are the frequency, presumably because of the desire to put the ID into a GPS rather than dial it into a NAV radio. Even the 430 has a nav receiver built in, does nobody use it?

 

[Shawn]

One thing that is interesting about this thread is that everyone seems more concerned about knowing the identifier than they are the frequency, presumably because of the desire to put the ID into a GPS rather than dial it into a NAV radio. Even the 430 has a nav receiver built in, does nobody use it?

Just don't use the 430 to pull up and load the frequency of the VOR otherwise you might be told you don't know how to navigate!

Actually the first thing ATC gave me WAS the Seal Beach frequency. Then yeah, I asked for the identifier and entered that into the GPS. My GPS in Foreflight gives me a MUCH better visual representation of where I need to go. The normal routing I can literally fly visual with no GPS or nav aids even through Bravo airspace, but having that visual picture of where to go when getting an unexpected vector makes flying a whole lot easier in my opinion...obviously others disagree.

 

[EdFred]

As Ron mentioned...yeah it is easy in the comfort of your chair...and again...this is not a question of lack of ability to find a VOR that I am literally sitting on...but moving forward into IFR training, how best to proceed in locating unfamiliar nav aids when instructed in a high workload situation. That is why I said re-read the original question...and guess I should have clarified the CONTEXT as well. What if that VOR was 50 miles away?...is taking the time to scan the chart looking while ATC is EXPECTING you to be on that course the best way to proceeded...obviously not but that seems to be what some are suggesting.

The answer that has emerged is to "ask" first and always if unfamiliar.

..and yes, I have flown into Fullerton a dozen times but have never had to use Seal Bach as a nav aid in my flight plan or planning. When flying through LA airspace, the VFR visual reporting points are far more critical and are referenced more for VFR flights with ATC.

ATC doesn't expect you to be turning within 5 seconds. If they want you turned within 5 seconds, they will give you a vector to turn. If it takes 15 to 30 seconds to find, it takes 15 to 30 seconds to find. When I plan my IFR flights I generally make myself familiar with every VOR 50 or so nm either side of my planned/cleared route. I don't memorize the ID, or the frequency. I don't have to, I look on the chart, find the name, and do what I need to do. If I can't find it after a cursory look, I go back to the controller. With fixes, I usually immediately ask the spelling of it.

 

[EdFred]

Actually the first thing ATC gave me WAS the Seal Beach frequency. Then yeah, I asked for the identifier and entered that into the GPS.

Bang. Head. Wall. Then why didn't you just dial that in first, and center the needle? What advantage does entering it into the GPS before dialing in the frequency give you for expediting yourself on course? The knobs on the left side of the 430 are there for a reason.

 

[AggieMike88]

The answer that has emerged is to "ask" first and always if unfamiliar.

I can't speak to this for the GNS430/530, but one thing I love abut the CNX80/480 when the Direct To button is pressed is the ability to quickly select "DB" for database and then twist for anything in the database.

So in the OP's situation, if ATC gave me the spelling of the fix after I said "Unfamiliar, more information please", I now know it's not difficult to dig the fix out of the box once I know how to spell it.

Perhaps the GNSx30's do the same?

----------------------

And Ed, I get what you're saying and agree with the thought behind your comment. But if the instruction is a waypoint fix (the triangles on the L-charts), then using the GPS we have in the panel or our iPad EFB is a needed tool.

 

[Shawn]

Ed, man...I really have this visual of you as a 70 year old grumpy old mad shaking his fists at the kids as they ride by you front porch with "back in my day" stories!

You must have missed my ACTUAL corse of action...first thing I did was "THINK" how best find Seal Beach...then immediately ASKED, got the identifier, carried on my merry way and then ASKED a question here about procedures and using technology. (news flash...I FOUND the fix!)

At no time during my flight was I using VOR's I was using GPS...I know, unless you are not flying VOR's with a paper chart in your lap using stick and rudder, you are not really flying.

I am also willing to put "stupid" questions out there cuz I know if I had the questions...others probably do as well, even if they are taken out of context then ridiculed. That is why I said under the category "license to learn".

...but hey, thanks for trying to share some knowledge

 

[poadeleted20]

One thing that is interesting about this thread is that everyone seems more concerned about knowing the identifier than they are the frequency, presumably because of the desire to put the ID into a GPS rather than dial it into a NAV radio. Even the 430 has a nav receiver built in, does nobody use it?

Not "everyone" -- check post #13 again. :wink2:

 

[EdFred]

Ed, man...I really have this visual of you as a 70 year old grumpy old mad shaking his fists at the kids as they ride by you front porch with "back in my day" stories!

You must have missed my ACTUAL corse of action...first thing I did was "THINK" how best find Seal Beach...then immediately ASKED, got the identifier, carried on my merry way and then ASKED a question here about procedures and using technology. (news flash...I FOUND the fix!)

At no time during my flight was I using VOR's I was using GPS...I know, unless you are not flying VOR's using stick and rudder, you are not really flying.

...but hey, thanks for trying to share some knowledge

Sigh. There was no reason to ask. [Samuel Jackson] He gave you the mother****ing frequency for the mother****ing VOR! [/Samuel Jackson]. It would have taken less than 10 seconds to hit the button on the 430 to switch from GPS to VOR, and tune in the only information you needed. Spin the OBS, center the needle, match heading. There's no need to enter into the GPS. People have this fascination with GPS. I gotta do everything GPS. I need my magenta blanket. I can't can't leave the pattern without GPS. GPS GPS GPS.

I will repeat it again. Magic boxes are eroding skills.

 

[Shawn]

People have this fascination with GPS. I gotta do everything GPS. I need my magenta blanket.

The LA Basin is some of the most complex airspace in the nation with LAX Bravo, multiple Charlie and numerous Delta fields all stacked on top of one another. You bet yer arse I am gonna use GPS...and every piece of technology to navigate that area. I wanna know if I am gonna be flying through the departure end of Long Beach with heavy jets departing. Up in Michigan...different story.

 

[EdFred]

The LA Basin is some of the most complex airspace in the nation with LAX Bravo, multiple Charlie and numerous Delta fields all stacked on top of one another. You bet yer arse I am gonna use GPS...and every piece of technology to navigate that area. I wanna know if I am gonna be flying through the departure end of Long Beach with heavy jets departing. Up in Michigan...different story.

You are completely missing the point. The controller gave you all the info you needed. Direct Seal beach, here's the frequency. I don't care how convoluted the airspace is...you already have all the information you need. You were worried about doing it quickly, how much longer did it take than 10 seconds to do everything. Much longer. Now you've clogged up the frequency, and have your head in the cockpit more than needed.

I've flown in all of the 48 contig, into and out of multiple Bravos. In fact most of my flying is done not in Michigan.

You asked, you got an answer.

If you're going to continue flying in the LA Basin, maybe you need to make yourself more familiar with the airspace, and quit relying on the magic box. I still seriously can't believe you didn't know the closest VOR to an airport you've been to a dozen times.

The magic box is eroding skills.

 

[Shawn]

You are completely missing the point. The controller gave you all the info you needed. Direct Seal beach, here's the frequency.

That is what you are missing in your quest to prove how unskilled a pilot I am...he gave me "Direct Seal Beach"...THAT'S IT. No frequency, no identifier and the question that then popped in my head...what is the fastest way to obtain the information where Seal Beach VOR is cuz it is uncommon for ATC out here to give a VFR pilot a "direct to VOR". Options were 1) take the time to scan the chart. 2) use the technology available and how. 3) ask ATC

I asked and obtained the frequency and identifier...then asked HERE about the viability of the other options. Has noting to do with a magic box my friend. Quit twisting it to you own soapbox. You gotta either look down at a VOR needle or GSP screen to get to the fix.

 

[EdFred]

You said in post 26 the first thing he gave you was the frequency.

You asked about other options: Here's one. Don't rely on the magic box. It erodes skills. Your responses are doing nothing except lending more credence to my assertion.

Your navigation skills need honing. And I say that because your first instinct seems to be "let the magic box tell me where to go" - at least that's what your posts are conveying.

 

[flyingron]

You can also hit NEAREST VOR or NEAREST INT(ersection) and scroll through that to see if you can find what you're looking for and for VORs load the freq up or hit D-> and go there.

 

[B350ATP]

That is what you are missing in your quest to prove how unskilled a pilot I am...he gave me "Direct Seal Beach"...THAT'S IT. No frequency, no identifier and the question that then popped in my head...what is the fastest way to obtain the information where Seal Beach VOR is cuz it is uncommon for ATC out here to give a VFR pilot a "direct to VOR". Options were 1) take the time to scan the chart. 2) use the technology available and how. 3) ask ATC

I asked and obtained the frequency and identifier...then asked HERE about the viability of the other options. Has noting to do with a magic box my friend. Quit twisting it to you own soapbox. You gotta either look down at a VOR needle or GSP screen to get to the fix.

wow. I wonder how many forum members actually get past all the FAR's and Chief Counsel memos and NOTAM's and ever actually get airborne

ATC (aside from occasional mistakes) issues instructions based on your filed/claimed equipment suffix. If you filed GPS then you should have asked for IDENTIFIER for Seal Beach, as most would assume that Joe Pilot, if he paid big bucks for GPS, he is probably using GPS versus the fixed card ADF in his plane to navigate (and his is filed equipment suffix GPS)

If VOR only / no GPS, you should have asked for frequency, centered the needle, and gone direct.

Both responses above could be prefaced with "could I get vectors to get me started" then the follow up response.

Period, the end.

My question to you: What equipment suffix are you flying under or using with ATC ?

ATC "not common" to give VFR direct to VOR ? You are in busy Class Bravo and ATC will give you direct to whatever to provide separation/ensure safety. You are not NORDO Joe Tri-Pacer in West Texas.

And yes, these GPS's and magic boxes and automation are not just eroding skills, they are KILLING pilots.

 

[B350ATP]

You can also hit NEAREST VOR or NEAREST INT(ersection) and scroll through that to see if you can find what you're looking for and for VORs load the freq up or hit D-> and go there.

VFR pilots should be heads outside as much as possible, not scrolling smart phones or playing with their Foreflight hockey puck or whatever else this generation is using

Plus, every action taken = a possibility of error while involved in that action

Request a heading to get started

Please provide Identifier / Do you have freq handy

Plug In, Fly

versus 18 menu's and scroll knobs and probably STILL ask for above info just to "confirm" what magic box is saying

 

[Shawn]

Request a heading to get started

Please provide Identifier / Do you have freq handy

Plug In, Fly

versus 18 menu's and scroll knobs and probably STILL ask for above info just to "confirm" what magic box is saying

Thank you...even though the answer has become obvious...that is the most complete answer to my question yet.

VFR pilots should be heads outside as much as possible, not scrolling smart phones or playing with their Foreflight hockey puck or whatever else this generation is using

Now to spin off on another tangent that is becoming a recurring theme here...just as I said that you have to either look at a VOR needle or GPS screen to get to the fix, both require some amount of "Heads Down"...what is the difference between looking at a sectional and folding it up, over and down to plot where you are vs an EFB like Foreflight with a moving map?....still gotta look at a chart to navigate.

I will agree with you that an over reliance of GPS...and any automation can be deadly if you follow it blindly or make assumptions (AKA Asiana Airlines), but the same argument could be made that is is adding to situational awareness and helps pilots be safer...kinda like it is not the gun that kills people...people kill people.