how much risk flying in windy conditions

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fast99

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fast99
Since this morning in eastern Washington winds have been 20+ with much higher gusts. Looked at ADSB on the internet there were a few small planes out at lower levels, 172s PA 28, ect. Am a student, had a flight scheduled for this morning obviously canceled. Been out in 10-15 k winds, we were tossed around a lot at times. Having next to no experience seems to me flying in this kind of weather would be uncomfortable and have substantial risk. Am I right or wrong?
 
Solo with little experience, yes. With a proficient instructor or prior experience, the extra risk is minimal for the cited winds. Depending on direction, landing could be difficult, but if the winds are down the runway, it isn't that much more difficult than any other landing with a strong headwind.
 
You are right.

Gusty unstable air is not fun to fly in.

Learning to fly and land in gusty wind conditions takes time.

I spent an agonizing 3 days at isolated Mojave Airport with my wife when the winds were blowing more than I was comfortable.

The worst part was there were pilots in less capable aircraft than mine taking off over the same three days.

"If they can do it, why can't you?", she asked multiple times over the 3 days.

"Because I suck as a pilot. You should have married one of them."

It was pretty humiliating. But i knew I was not capable of dealing with the winds if something went wrong and I had to make an emergency landing.

This was with 15 years of experience flying in un- windy Nor Cal.

Ten years on I could handle this in my current plane but I didn't have the knowledge and skills back then.
 
fast99 said:
Since this morning in eastern Washington winds have been 20+ with much higher gusts. Looked at ADSB on the internet there were a few small planes out at lower levels, 172s PA 28, ect. Am a student, had a flight scheduled for this morning obviously canceled. Been out in 10-15 k winds, we were tossed around a lot at times. Having next to no experience seems to me flying in this kind of weather would be uncomfortable and have substantial risk. Am I right or wrong?
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To me that sounds like a great time to grab an instructor and go flying to get the experience.

Normally I'd say don't earn your PPL by avoiding real life conditions (within reason): like dodging gusty winds, cross wind days, choppy days, etc. That just means you have to learn them on your own later when there is no one in the right seat to help you out. Then you'll really be sweatin'. Best learn them now and get your money's worth out of your CFI.

At the same time you mentioned you have "next to no experience". So... OK. That changes things.

IMHO - if you don't have the basics of flying (and specifically landing) down yet then it doesn't do you a lot of good to go get beat up and throw you and your CFI in situation where they're probably going to have to do 80% of the landings in the pattern. You gotta have the confidence to fly in calm conditions before you level-up the difficulty.

Separately, I don't know about your area in Washington, but I don't consider 20G25-30kts around me to be anything super crazy. Trainer planes around here will fly in that all day. If it's not a bad crosswind then landing with winds like that really are not that difficult - and if its a lot of headwind you get to touch down at like 35 knots groundspeed which is always fun :)
 
If you plan to continue flying, I'll be honest, the winds will never give up and they don't care. Not saying this precise moment is the time, but at some point, most of us had to just get over the environmental conditions not being ideal always. Which is all to say that getting out there and doing it on a day like you mentioned (it's gusting to 40 knots at my house today in the puget sound/whidbey island area too) is part of learning the art of flying. It just kinda sucks when you are trying to learn at first :)
 
Another example about training and experience. When I was teaching at KAPA in the Denver area, the typical winds would be light from the southeast and favor runway 17 in the morning and rotate clockwise through the day. They would also increase in intensity becoming a substantial crosswind mid to late afternoon, before beginning to diminish in the evening.

It wasn’t always possible but some of us tried to schedule newer students in the morning with those nearing checkrides in the afternoon.
 
As with any risk management, all of the variables need to be included in the decision making. Pilot xperience is a big one of those variables, but so is the aircraft, wind speed and direction, wind gusts, and many other factors. In 50 years of flying I've never relied on a "numerical" answer to that question, although some people and some operations do. Once you get your certificate, you may find that passenger comfort is the major determinant, but I agree with others that you should get experience with a good instructor while you can.

I will say that I think most pilots will at some point get into a situation where they decide, "Well, I'll never try THAT again", and it usually occurs because you realize how close you came having little or no control "reserve".
 
My instructor used to say, "It is too rough to fly dual but you can fly solo if you want." :biggrin:

I don't like flying when it is super gusty or bumpy, I do from time to time, but it just isn't enjoyable and I fly for fun. I don't ever take passengers except my wife (she doesn't seem to mind it) when it is bumpy. I don't want to turn them off to flying and crazy bumps in a small airplane will do that to people.
 
It depends on many things: the aircraft, pilot skill, wind direction, gust spread, airport layout.

When I was flying ultralights anything over 10 knots made me think and over 15 was probably a no-go. With a heavier faster plane 10-15 is a yawn. Generally the higher the stall speed, the more wind you can handle.

Once you get proficient, you may enjoy it... I like going up (solo) and just shooting landings in my Hatz when it's, say, 15G25 just for fun... as long as it's not a dead crosswind. The limit is how far I can have a wing down at touchdown to counter the crosswind, which is less of a factor in a high wing plane.

Airport layout... 20-30 right down a wide straight runway may be no big deal, but that same wind across a short narrow runway is a different matter. My home field (SNC) is on a hilltop with trees on the [usually] upwind side of the runway to add turbulence and a steep dropoff on both approach ends and the other side making for a nice downdraft on short final even if the wind isn't cross. And it's fairly narrow, with no place to go if you depart the runway with so it has a bit of a reputation for being tricky in a wind, while a nearby airport (42B) with a runway down in the valley along the river is easy on the same day. So you may see planes passing over going from or to easier airports.

And gust spread is important, though too many people ignore it. 25G30 may not be nearly as bad as 10G25.
 
fast99 said:
Since this morning in eastern Washington winds have been 20+ with much higher gusts. Looked at ADSB on the internet there were a few small planes out at lower levels, 172s PA 28, ect. Am a student, had a flight scheduled for this morning obviously canceled. Been out in 10-15 k winds, we were tossed around a lot at times. Having next to no experience seems to me flying in this kind of weather would be uncomfortable and have substantial risk. Am I right or wrong?
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What you don’t know is how many of those pilots up there were wishing they were on the ground

Never let anyone badger you into flying when you aren’t comfortable with the conditions
 
Flying in the wind is easy. Sometimes landing isn’t. You can choose to take off but once you do? Landing is inevitable.

Tell your favorite instructor that you’d like to get some training in winds. Takeoffs, landings, maneuvers, stalls…. Learn to manage it.
 
Not sure how many hours you have, but learning how to handle wind now will pay off big in the future.

I had an incident (damaged an old 172) right after I got my Private because I didn't know how to land in wind. When I became an instructor I would almost never cancel a lesson because of wind, even if it was a few times around the pattern. You simply need to know how to handle wind. Because of what happened to me, I tried to make sure that would never happen to any of my students.

Find an instructor that will teach you now, so you don't have to figure it out by yourself later.
 
The school I used to be with has a 20 knots soft limit for PPL. My instructor followed that for the most part and we’d cancel if it hits 20. He relaxed it more as we went along. However my pre solo checkout with another instructor was done in gusting to 25.

It’s all about comfort and experience. Same plane different pilot, I am the most conservative of our partnership, while one of the guys will go up in gusting to 30 if direction is right. Another seems completely comfortable with flying under marginal VFR. Although last time he ended up diverting twice trying to get back to base.

Make your own decision as you get more knowledge and feel in your own abilities.
 
fast99 said:
Since this morning in eastern Washington winds have been 20+ with much higher gusts. Looked at ADSB on the internet there were a few small planes out at lower levels, 172s PA 28, ect. Am a student, had a flight scheduled for this morning obviously canceled. Been out in 10-15 k winds, we were tossed around a lot at times. Having next to no experience seems to me flying in this kind of weather would be uncomfortable and have substantial risk. Am I right or wrong?
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You are beginning as a student to evaluate correctly.

There certainly is an elevated risk. Assuming the runways in the area are aligned with the wind and the pilots are relatively experienced, the risk is exceptable, but will require some risk mitigation. The FAA considers a crosswind component of 10 knots as lower risk and >15 knots as hazardous. The FAA issues Airmet Tango for sustained winds >30 knots

This does mean not the flight, especially for a student or a passenger will be comfortable and the flight might be a total waste of training dollars for a student early in training.



My flight school has a max limit of 20 with 15 xwind for students and the fleet is grounded at 30. This is a bit too liberal in my view, but the CFIs can place more restrictions in the logbook.
 
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It’s highly dependent not only on pilot skill, but the aircraft in question.

Where pilots can get into trouble is knowing what they’re comfortable in a Cirrus or Bonanza, let’s say, and then flying a smaller plane and applying the same limits.

For instance, 18G24 would have been a non issue in my Cirrus, unless there was wind shear involved. Those same winds could be too much for me to handle in my Light Sport, and could easily keep me on the ground.

But discretion is the better part of valor, and “If in doubt, sit it out” is still a good mantra to apply.
 
Have around 35 hours and recently soloed, pretty green. A calm day this spring has been rare. Have dealt with some wind but not near as much as yesterday. CFI already said we will be doing some crosswind training later on. Forgot to mention there was a LLWS warning on the weather chart for some of this area Thursday. We also get mechanical turbulence from the terrain. Flying yesterday just seemed like too much risk. There were only a handful of planes out so guess I was in the majority.
 
As a student I didn't want to fly on gusty days, partly because of the landing and partly because of turbulence.

An instructor took me up on what I strongly considered a no-fly day and we did upwind, downwind, and crosswind landings on the two runways. It gave me a big confidence boost, and really helped dial in the feel for wind corrections and what to expect from the plane in sub-optimal conditions.

Once you break out of the trainer's 'auto-land' and have to work the plane to touchdown, your skills will really improve. And when you take x/c's, you'll need to be able to deal with the winds conditions where you're landing, whatever they may be.
 
Bob Noel said:
Never let anyone badger you into flying when you aren’t comfortable with the conditions
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FastEddieB said:
If in doubt, sit it out
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:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

Ultimately there’s only one person’s hand pushing the throttle forward. Make your own decision. If you’re not comfortable with the plane, the winds, the ceiling, or just have an undefinable bad feeling, stay on the ground.

Then immediately go have a beer to cement the decision and remove any possibility of second-guessing and changing your mind.
 
fast99 said:
Since this morning in eastern Washington winds have been 20+ with much higher gusts. Looked at ADSB on the internet there were a few small planes out at lower levels, 172s PA 28, ect. Am a student, had a flight scheduled for this morning obviously canceled. Been out in 10-15 k winds, we were tossed around a lot at times. Having next to no experience seems to me flying in this kind of weather would be uncomfortable and have substantial risk. Am I right or wrong?
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At your experience level you are mostly correct, but as you gain experience your understanding and ability will reduce risks and improve your comfort level.

Certified airplanes are designed to handle crosswinds and have demonstrated crosswind performance posted somewhere in the cockpit of the airplanes I have flown. An interesting point about 172s vs PA28s is the different characteristics they have regarding crosswinds on and near the ground. Hershey Bar Cherokees with their short wingspan, wide ground track, and low center of gravity are easier to control in stiff crosswinds than the 172s with higher center of gravity, narrower landing gear, and longer wingspan. I am not saying the high wings can't be controlled, just that the effects of crosswinds will be more pronounced to the pilot.

Flying is alot like riding a bike. The more you do it the more comfortable it becomes. If you fly enough your airplane eventually becomes an extension of your mind and body. You will wear it like a suit of clothes.
 
At one point yesterday afternoon KGEG reported 21G49. Made me chuckle a bit, I remember that number well as I had to land a long wing Pacer I sold to a group of guys down in the Denver area. Thankfully that wind was pretty much right down the pipe but we had about a 3 foot rollout. Taxiing was a bit of luck as we dodged any bad gusts.
After your check ride, one of the things I recommend is make a no kidding cross country. Like at least half the US. Coming from E WA, go land a few airports in Iowa and come to know and love wind. Safely expanding your capabilities is a great thing.
But - even with that said I was supposed to ferry a cub yesterday afternoon here. But it could wait, so it did. Had I been drinking beer to cement that decision I'd have started around 10AM.
 
William Pete Hodges said:
At your experience level you are mostly correct, but as you gain experience your understanding and ability will reduce risks and improve your comfort level.

Certified airplanes are designed to handle crosswinds and have demonstrated crosswind performance posted somewhere in the cockpit of the airplanes I have flown. An interesting point about 172s vs PA28s is the different characteristics they have regarding crosswinds on and near the ground. Hershey Bar Cherokees with their short wingspan, wide ground track, and low center of gravity are easier to control in stiff crosswinds than the 172s with higher center of gravity, narrower landing gear, and longer wingspan. I am not saying the high wings can't be controlled, just that the effects of crosswinds will be more pronounced to the pilot.

Flying is alot like riding a bike. The more you do it the more comfortable it becomes. If you fly enough your airplane eventually becomes an extension of your mind and body. You will wear it like a suit of clothes.
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While I agree a low wing and a wide gear track may be more stable once on the surface, crosswind approach and landing characteristics are determined by wing loading and control effectiveness (primarily rudder). Wing location really has little to do with it. And ground track of the landing gear on approach and landing definitely has nothing to do with it.
 
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Those folks that were out flying might have a little local knowledge and experience that you don’t have. I go out and fly occasionally when the forecast is for winds, but actual conditions on the field turn out to be within my personal limits. It’s wise not to fly solo when you’re not comfortable. But it’s a great idea and fly with a CFI in order to increase those limits.
 
Clip4 said:
While I agree a low wing and a wide gear track may be more stable once on the surface, crosswind approach and landing characteristics are determined by wing loading and control effectiveness (primarily rudder). Wing location really has little to do with it. And ground track of the landing gear on approach and landing definitely has nothing to do with it.
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I understand your point but I still disagree. To me the most vulnerable time in a crosswind landing is when one or more wheels just makes contact with runway as flying speed is dissipating and aerodynamic control is diminishing, but the wings are still flying and the wheels have very light grip on the ground. This transitional part of the landing can be greatly affected by a wind gust, either high wing or low wing, but the low CG and wider wheel track of Cherokees greatly improves their stability at this critical time. I think that makes them easier to land in high crosswinds. And yes I have flown and landed both C172s and PA28s.

No offense meant. So you and I will agree to disagree.
 
William Pete Hodges said:
ITo me the most vulnerable time in a crosswind landing is when one or more wheels just makes contact with runway as flying speed is dissipating and aerodynamic control is diminishing, but the wings are still flying and the wheels have very light grip on the ground.
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Certainly the case with a wheel landing on a tailwheel. Tail up - the rudder steers. Tail down - the tailwheel steers. In the no man’s land in between - there be dragons.
 
William Pete Hodges said:
I understand your point but I still disagree. To me the most vulnerable time in a crosswind landing is when one or more wheels just makes contact with runway as flying speed is dissipating and aerodynamic control is diminishing, but the wings are still flying and the wheels have very light grip on the ground. This transitional part of the landing can be greatly affected by a wind gust, either high wing or low wing, but the low CG and wider wheel track of Cherokees greatly improves their stability at this critical time. I think that makes them easier to land in high crosswinds. And yes I have flown and landed both C172s and PA28s.

No offense meant. So you and I will agree to disagree.
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No offense taken, but your experiance and understanding is a bit off.

A pilot’s greatest risk during a strong crosswind landing and roll out is loss of directional control from the rudder, not the tires losing grip. (It’s still about yaw)

If you lose rudder authority prior to touch down, the aircraft will yaw into the wind and can’t be landed because plane’s longitudal axis is not aligned with the direction of travel. If you lose rudder authority before the nose wheel steering is fully effective, the plane will yaw into the wind and may run off the upwind side of the runway. The grip from a 18” diameter tire won’t save you and neither will wheel track or a low wing in more ground effect than a high wing.

Anticipating loss of rudder authority is why one crosswind landing technique to land on the downwind half of the runway in a strong xwind situation vs landing in the middle closer to the up wind edge.

The single engine Pipers (17 knots) enjoy a 12% demonstrated crosswind component advantage over the Cessnas (15 knots). Move into a 207 (20 knots) or the 182RG (18 knots) and your perceived advantage disappears.

If you want more grip of the tires, you need bigger tires and / or less inflation.
 
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Clip4 said:
This is why one crosswind landing technique to land on the downwind half of the runway in a strong xwind situation.



If you want more grip of the tires, let some air out.
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Would you expound on this one a bit more? Land with a quartering tailwind instead of headwind?
 
FancyG said:
Would you expound on this one a bit more? Land with a quartering tailwind instead of headwind?
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Sure, if you are going to do landings with a strong quartering tailwind definitely do it in a high wing because the risk of objects colliding with the wing is reduced when you run off the end of the runway.
 
FancyG said:
Would you expound on this one a bit more? Land with a quartering tailwind instead of headwind?
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I think he meant into the wind but at an angle into the wind…

I see I just got ninja’d.

But for example…


You can start 30 seconds in. And watch the yaw string to see the effect. And the windsock as I taxi to the ramp.
 
William Pete Hodges said:
If you fly enough your airplane eventually becomes an extension of your mind and body. You will wear it like a suit of clothes.
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Can confirm. Upon recent arrival back at the salt mines for another "voluntary" chapter to the saga of my so-called career, was casually informed I'm now the highest time T-38 guy on the entire installation. Talk about blink and you'll miss it.

Though I barely recognize the middle aged man staring me in the mirror, I certainly remember like it was yesterday the days where flying a cardinal RG for my first complex endorsement lesson felt like a moonshot. Ditto for my first 45* steep turn in a C-150 during ppl training making me airsick and my French female CFI casually emasculating me after the flight. The good ol days.


---brk-- brk--
@fast99 , you're in good company. We don't soar at birth. None of us are self-made, especially those who like to fancy themselves as though they are.

fwiw, at this juncture I got just enough callus over gambling with my life for a living because I got lost on my way to med school, to plainly tell you: things will get easier/manageable as you keep at it. Doesn't feel like it in the beginning, it never does. But it will.

And then perhaps one bittersweet day, when you've battled through enough self-doubt, survived/gotten away with enough mistakes, and availed yourself to some life-changing mentorship, maybe you'll get the chance to pay it forward in this life. I promise you, that will also be the day you'll look back at your own doubt, and smirk. The man staring back at me in the mirror certainly does.

Remember, we crawl,
1716023427777.png

we run,
1716024880473.png

...before we Soar.
1716025067276.png

One day at a time, it's all we can do anyways. Fly safe. Cheers!
 
Clip4 said:
If you want more grip of the tires, you need bigger tires and / or less inflation.
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Wow! I am glad my post stirred up some great comments! I was not thinking about the grip of the tires so much as the tendency for a gust of wind to lift a wing moving the airframe towards a rollover. I realize that is an extreme outcome, but not impossible in a strong gusty crosswind.

Clip4 said:
The single engine Pipers (17 knots) enjoy a 12% demonstrated crosswind component advantage over the Cessnas (15 knots). Move into a 207 (20 knots) or the 182RG (18 knots) and your perceived advantage disappears.
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The lower CG and wider wheel track gives the landing gear more leverage to hold the airplane parallel to the ground. No doubt that contributes to the crosswind advantage mentioned above.
Clip4 said:
No offense taken, but your experiance and understanding is a bit off.

A pilot’s greatest risk during a strong crosswind landing and roll out is loss of directional control from the rudder, not the tires losing grip. (It’s still about yaw)

If you lose rudder authority prior to touch down, the aircraft will yaw into the wind and can’t be landed because plane’s longitudal axis is not aligned with the direction of travel. If you lose rudder authority before the nose wheel steering is fully effective, the plane will yaw into the wind and may run off the upwind side of the runway.
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I have experienced this on one of my stiff wind landings when my bird skidded sideways during a large gust just after making contact with the ground. First the upwind wing lifted and full aileron put it back down, then the gust skidded the rear wheels of the plane sideways which I corrected with rudder against the skid. My reactions were fast and my bird responded beautifully.

I may not have the same experience and understanding as you do, but I still feel the worst possible outcome is a rollover and possible cartwheel, not running off into the grass on the side of most runways. I agree that yaw control is very important, but a rollover and cartwheel is worse.

One Miracle at a time. I hope we haven't scared the original poster half to death!!
 
William Pete Hodges said:
Wow! I am glad my post stirred up some great comments! I was not thinking about the grip of the tires so much as the tendency for a gust of wind to lift a wing moving the airframe towards a rollover. I realize that is an extreme outcome, but not impossible in a strong gusty crosswind.



The lower CG and wider wheel track gives the landing gear more leverage to hold the airplane parallel to the ground. No doubt that contributes to the crosswind advantage mentioned above.

I have experienced this on one of my stiff wind landings when my bird skidded sideways during a large gust just after making contact with the ground. First the upwind wing lifted and full aileron put it back down, then the gust skidded the rear wheels of the plane sideways which I corrected with rudder against the skid. My reactions were fast and my bird responded beautifully.

I may not have the same experience and understanding as you do, but I still feel the worst possible outcome is a rollover and possible cartwheel, not running off into the grass on the side of most runways. I agree that yaw control is very important, but a rollover and cartwheel is worse.

One Miracle at a time. I hope we haven't scared the original poster half to death!!
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A lot of pilots tend to drive the plane on the runway in a crosswind rather than land it. The wing is still flying and a lot of bad things can happen.
 
dmspilot said:
No, he means landing across the runway to reduce the crosswind component, like this:

View attachment 128909
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Not necessarily that, but some trailer pilots like to land parallel to the centerline, but on the downwind side, so that if a crosswind gust makes the plane weathervane into the wind, it leaves more room to recover before rolling off the runway.
Clip4 said:
There is no quartering tailwind in your diagram, but I would not use that technique in any landing.
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In a faster plane, no, but in a slower plane, like an ultralight, it's sometimes a good idea.
 
Clip4 said:
There is no quartering tailwind in your diagram, but I would not use that technique in any landing.
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Anecdote:

I landed once in my Sky Arrow at Moriarty, NM with a hellacious right crosswind to what was then a single runway. My ground track looked something like this:

https://flic.kr/p/dRk1bR
I mentioned my technique to a glider instructor there. He said in really strong winds they would land nearly perpendicular to the runway so as to utilize the ramp area. Something like this:

https://flic.kr/p/dRqBGJ

Same trip, Henrietta, OK, wind so strong tumbleweed was blowing right to left across the runway. Used the same technique on the takeoff.

Maybe not for everyone, and I wouldn’t suggest trying it if you’re uncomfortable with the idea. But it really does work.

Note: on occasion I’ve also given up landing at a particular airport due to crosswinds, and found a nearby airport with runways better aligned with the wind.
 
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