How much money should I expect to make in the industry??

loganjvx

loganjvx

Filing Flight Plan
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piperpilot
Hello all,

As an up and coming career pilot, I am intrigued by the financial aspect of being an aviator for hire. I was never in it for the money, and as a DPE friend of mine said “I fly to get 1000’ between my rear and the runway every day, nothing else”. With the time passing and the day coming closer and closer to that elusive R-ATP, I am starting to question “how much I can really expect to earn in this field?”

Friends of mine in the industry who are at varying points in their respective careers have given me a wide variety of answers to that question. I have heard answers talking about base pay, per diem, over seas time, overtime, etc. A big part of that is bonuses and how companies use bonuses as a way to “entrap” you for an “X” number of years. I assume this varies from company to company, but what does this look like for people at different stages in their careers?

I am not looking for anyone to tell me how much they make every year, because that would be distasteful and a rude question on my part. What I am trying to ascertain is a general idea for how pilots are being compensated with where the industry is at right now. I will have student loan payments, my girlfriend to-be wife, and children to contend with all within the next 10 years.

Lastly, what financial advice would you offer to a kid who is coming into an industry that will see more money then they know what to do with at a young age?

Thanks POA,
Logan
 
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You can look at any career and you'll see high up-front costs. Aviation is no exception. The variables after that include how long it takes to pay those up-front costs back and how successful you are in being in a lucrative slot within your career. There are a lot of doctors, lawyers, professors and hundred of other jobs where your question can't be answered with anything other than, "It depends . . .".
 
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Just pick an airline and Google their pay scales. They're all out there. Most airlines have a minimum monthly guarantee of something like 75 hours, so take that pay x 75 hours and there's your minimum.

I know of a senior Captain at a major who set the goal of making a million dollars one year, through picking up extra trips, getting double and even triple time, etc. He didn't quite make it, but came close. So there's an idea of the upper end.
 
Keep in mind that starting pay is WAY different from what some of the 20year + folks make. Look up some of the Regionals to get an idea of the bottom end. Also keep in mind that demand/supply and therefore pay can be very volatile and if you are low in the ranks, pay can move to zero.
 
A question with so many answers. All of which are correct yet meaningless.

Here’s my contribution. Set your expectations in the six figures that start with a one. Plan to build your own retirement from that income without the fairy tale level of direct contribution that exists at mainline.
 
If you get stuck below the airlines plan on being in five figures unless you learn to be an entrepreneur and own a business. Apart from the airlines, building your own company is the only way you *might* rival a senior captain.
 
RyanShort1 said:
If you get stuck below the airlines plan on being in five figures unless you learn to be an entrepreneur and own a business. Apart from the airlines, building your own company is the only way you *might* rival a senior captain.
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Even **** bag 135 jobs pay six figures now. No reason to be stuck five figures once able to be a captain for said 135 dirt bag company.

Claiming being a business owner as only way to make six figures outside of airlines is just patently not true.
 
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RyanShort1 said:
If you get stuck below the airlines plan on being in five figures unless you learn to be an entrepreneur and own a business. Apart from the airlines, building your own company is the only way you *might* rival a senior captain.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "below" the airlines, the airlines are not necessarily the pinnacle of aviation goals for everybody. Nor are "the airlines" collectively the pinnacle of pilot pay anymore. Sure, senior captains at the majors are likely the most highly paid pilots in the world, but if by "below the airlines" you mean Part 135 and corporate, many or even most of these jobs are now paying 6 figures. Even a Part 91 captain on something like a Gulfstream or a Falcon can be making 2 or 300,000. And that's typically salary, whether you fly or not.
 
Mr. Steven F. Udvar-Hazy seems to have done quite well in the industry.
 
loganjvx said:
Lastly, what financial advice would you offer to a kid who is coming into an industry that will see more money then they know what to do with at a young age?
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Any money that you “don’t know what to do with” should be dropped into mutual funds and left alone for 30 or 40 years. If I’m still alive you can thank me in 2060.
 
Half Fast said:
Any money that you “don’t know what to do with” should be dropped into mutual funds and left alone for 30 or 40 years. If I’m still alive you can thank me in 2060.
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I really like this idea and I was looking into this. I am 18 years old and I have started investing into a roth IRA. I understand that these are appreciating assets that I will have access to in 42 years but what other ways can I build a portfolio? Real estate? Gold & Bonds? Mutual fund investments (Baron Investment Group is doing some incredible things right now)?

I will thank you in 2060, I am already started to see the results of my investments, my 4-digit investment into the account will have appreciated to 6-figures upon retirement even if I don’t invest anything else. Wild.

Thanks all for the replies,
Logan
 
loganjvx said:
….
Lastly, what financial advice would you offer to a kid who is coming into an industry that will see more money then they know what to do with at a young age?
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The short version is don’t count your chickens before they hatch. The slightly longer version is live within your means and avoid debt, and have a plan for the inevitable furlough.

In the pro pilot world, you will pretty much have a recurring twelve month expiration date until you hit 40, then it shortens to every six months.

ETA: investing. Put 15% of your gross income in tax deferred retirement accounts. Once those (401K, IRA) are maxed out, out the remainder in a non-qualifying account. Pick a no-load index fund such as the S&P500 of a total market index and let it ride.

In 2025, the current tax rates change, so by the time you’re earning six figures, this advice may change depending in tax strategy.
 
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It is all about timing and luck. The industry is cyclical, and unexpected things will happen. If yours is bad, you can expect to make a living. If yours is good, you can expect to live very, very well, even in retirement. Plan and live your life for the worst case, at least until you are 40 or so.
 
As others said - the payscales are all publicly available. You're already mentioning a family, so IMO the bigger question is how much time you can expect to be at home, and how much seniority is required to ensure you're home when it's important. And like pay, the answer is 'it depends'. This isn't a professional pilot board, so most of us will be reluctant to talk specifics. Keep talking to your friends and ask how they manage their schedules, and how that ties into what they're paid.
 
TCABM said:
ETA: investing. Put 15% of your gross income in tax deferred retirement accounts. Once those (401K, IRA) are maxed out, out the remainder in a non-qualifying account. Pick a no-load index fund such as the S&P500 of a total market index and let it ride.
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Basically agree with a minor tweak or two. I'd go with a Roth IRA rather than a conventional IRA. A conventional IRA works best if you believe you'll be in a lower tax bracket when you retire and begin withdrawals, but for many of us that hasn't been the case and I'm now converting what I can of my conventional into a Roth.

If he's only starting out and doesn't have much to invest yet, an S&P 500 index fund isn't a bad choice. As his portfolio grows, though, he'll probably want to diversify a bit with an eye toward weathering downturns over the next few decades.

The S&P500 is weighted by market cap, so a few large cap companies (think Amazon, Microsoft, etc.) tend to over-dominate the index and this can lead to excessive volatility. Probably okay over 40 years, but the OP might consider spreading his mutual fund investments across a blend of large cap, mid cap, and small cap funds, both domestic and international. Also a smaller amount in a bond fund, maybe a commodity fund or real estate fund, too. Look at the mix and rebalance once or twice a year. Otherwise, let it ride and it should grow nicely in the long run.

@loganjvx , most of your portfolio growth over the next 30 or 40 years will come from stocks, but along with that growth will come some dramatic swings, positive and negative. Think of other investments as ways to cushion those stock market swings while riding the long-term upward trend of stocks. Stick with the funds for most of your investing; you can lose your shirt trying to pick the next Amazon. If you want to do some individual stock picking, have fun and maybe you'll get lucky, but think of it as entertainment (like a weekend in Vegas) and keep the amounts small.

WARNING - I am not a financial advisor or planner and the above is worth exactly what you paid for it. Maybe less.
 
Half Fast said:
Basically agree with a minor tweak or two. I'd go with a Roth IRA rather than a conventional IRA.
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I was intentionally non-specific on the type of qualifying account, and based on TCJA expirations in 2025, recommendations could change. But, alas, as an 18-year old, he won’t be eligible to make bug iron bucks for at least three more years.
 
The advise that worked for me:
Go to wherever the best pay is. You're in the "Travel Industry", travel and make more money.

If you decide to have a family and sleep in your own bed regularly, there's income sacrifices to do that.
 
TCABM said:
and based on TCJA expirations in 2025, recommendations could change.
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True, but a person just starting out will likely experience a variety of tax situations in the next 40 years. It's a reasonable bet, though, that the tax bracket for the first few years of employment will be lower than the bracket for the last few, so if that's true and you retire with net income neutral you'll be withdrawing from a conventional IRA at a higher tax than you would have paid on Roth contributions in those early years.

But nothing is certain other than somewhere, somehow, you will be taxed.
 
I never made what my wife's lawyer or the IRS thought I made, never had the time off my nieghbors thought I had, and never slept with as many F/A's as my wife thought I did................:dunno:
 
Oldmanb777 said:
I never made what my wife's lawyer or the IRS thought I made, never had the time off my nieghbors thought I had, and never slept with as many F/A's as my wife thought I did................:dunno:
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If you had to do it all over again, would you change nothing/something/everything? My username checks, of course. :D
 
hindsight2020 said:
If you had to do it all over again, would you change nothing/something/everything? My username checks, of course. :D
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Yes, I would have started earlier in life, and planned to be broke and exhausted most of it. I would have learned to enjoy the sun in my eyes after 10 hours of red eye flying. Really, its the best and worst career ever, just not all at the same time, thankfully.
 
1. Buy a house, live in it, and pay it off over 20-25 years.
2. Put 10% of your income in a tax deferred account every year.
3. Invest in low load index funds and leave the money in.
4. View market downturns as buying opportunities.
5. ALWAYS get the match on a 401k.
6. The day each kid is born, open a college fund for them and contribute to those funds before you contribute to your own retirement fund.
 
Ed Haywood said:
1. Buy a house, live in it, and pay it off over 20-25 years.
2. Put 10% of your income in a tax deferred account every year.
3. Invest in low load index funds and leave the money in.
4. View market downturns as buying opportunities.
5. ALWAYS get the match on a 401k.
6. The day each kid is born, open a college fund for them and contribute to those funds before you contribute to your own retirement fund.
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Your rules 2 and 5 conflict with the second half of rule 6.

Besides, as probably any retirement consultant will tell you, there are many ways for your kids to pay for college, but only one way for you to pay for retirement.
 
If you are considering part 121 jobs (i.e. "airlines), the typical annual pay estimate is to multiply the hourly pay by 1000. So for example, if 3rd year FO pay is $200/hr, a rough approximation (including things we would call "soft pay", like per diem, pay overrides, plus the likelihood of making more than min credit/pay) would be that person makes about $200,000/yr.

Major/legacy airlines are pretty well into the 200's now for the right seat (save your first couple years), and left seat is probably anywhere from 300-600k depending on seniority (there have been some very early upgrades, testing the lower end of CA pay rates), and equipment (wide body pays a bit better).

This gouge doesn't translate exactly for SWA, who use a unique pay calculation, but their pay is also in the same ballpark for narrow body pay.
 
Want to make a lot of money in aviation? If you're a skilled Python developer willing to work in Atlanta, contact me!
 
As much as I hate it, I think we’re going to see a drop in air travel because of all the Boeing problems.
 
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