How Much Actual After The FAF Is Enough?

FlyingTiger

FlyingTiger

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FlyingTiger
I went up Saturday morning in marginal VFR on an IFR plan hoping to log a couple approaches at the local Class D and then back at the home airport. Both times I was out of the clouds prior to the FAF. There were some stray clouds I passed on the final decent but didn't fly through any, so clearly I can't log the approaches toward my proficiency however it got me thinking, what if I flew through a cloud or two, maybe only 5-10 seconds of actual after the FAF. Would that qualify as an instrument approach? Also raises the related question, is that sufficient for a (.1) actual in the log book. You would think they go hand in hand since you really can't count the approach without at least a (.1) of actual.
 
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If you break out after the FAF it is logged as an actual instrument approach. VFR? VMC? Clear of clouds?
 
Yes, I would log that without question. In my hypo, IMC to VMC just prior to FAF, IMC for 5-10 seconds after FAF, then VMC for duration.
 
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You might be over thinking it.

I'm a newly IR pilot. I just got back from a trip several states away with my girlfriend, and we did several legs IFR in IFR weather. I noticed my girlfriend starting and stopping a stop watch, and I asked her what she was doing. She said she was timing my time in the clouds. It was very nice of her, so I didn't have the heart to tell her that even though she had timed my total cloud time as being 15 minutes, 39 seconds, I had made my mind up I was logging .5 hours as IFR out of the 3 hour flight...because A) I'm not getting that precise, and B) the time just before entering clouds, and just after, I'm still flying by reference to instruments.
 
That citation is somewhat helpful but I agree, it doesn't directly address my question. Based on the language they use about transitioning from IMC to VMC on the final approach segment, it would appear you cannot log as an IAP if you are not in IMC as you cross the FAF no matter how much (or little) IMC you encounter after the FAF.
 
FlyingTiger said:
That citation is somewhat helpful but I agree, it doesn't directly address my question. Based on the language they use about transitioning from IMC to VMC on the final approach segment, it would appear you cannot log as an IAP if you are not in IMC as you cross the FAF no matter how much (or little) IMC you encounter after the FAF.
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You are overthinking it. There is no FAA IFR cop hiding behind the cloud. I'm not telling you to pad your logbook, just use your best judgement.
 
I thought we had a CC letter on this somewhere?
 
Seemed pretty clear to me that unless you are VFR from the IAF in, it can be logged. The only real stipulation is that if it's VFR from the IAF through the rest of the approach then it can't be logged.
 
My question

If you enter the approach in actual IFR conditions and keep your eyes are on the gauges the whole time (you do not look up and hedge) and keep them fixed the gauges until past the FAF Or even until the DA/MDA, why could you not log the approach as an actual ifr approach?

How would you really know?

FYI
I have asked my wife to tell me when she see the airport (in severe clear VFR conditions) and she still has difficulty finding it, even on short final?
 
ahypnoz said:
My question

If you enter the approach in actual IFR conditions and keep your eyes are on the gauges the whole time (you do not look up and hedge) and keep them fixed the gauges until past the FAF Or even until the DA/MDA, why could you not log the approach as an actual ifr approach?

How would you really know?

FYI
I have asked my wife to tell me when she see the airport (in severe clear VFR conditions) and she still has difficulty finding it, even on short final?
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It is as long as you have a safety pilot.
 
How is a safety pilot going to help?

If you are in the clouds (IMC) while starting the approach and/or going in and out of the clouds (which is more disorienting in my opinion) during the approach. I find it best just to keep my eyes on the gauges/instruments until I am past the FAF. I know there is a risk of having another plane Nordo in the pattern/ flying around, but I also know that many pilots become very disoriented with a lot of head movements and some do not do so well close to the ground.

If I break out out of the clouds at the MAP, I still keep my eyes on the gauges until I am closer to the runway (in case I go back into the clouds).

I find doing a true VFR quadrant scan while going in and out of the clouds and flying on the instrument gauges at the same time dangerous and disorienting.

Of course if you are going in and out of the clouds, your chance of seeing another airplane would be difficult, (unless you had a co pilot).
 
There is no way the FAA or the insurance company (in case of a future accident) are going to know the exact weather conditions when you flew the approach for currency. If in doubt, you should use your judgement if it demanded enough instrument skills to meet the spirit of the rule.
 
If you are in and out and in and out of clouds are you VMC? Do you meet the requirements for VFR cloud clearances? I don't think so, therefore you are IMC. You are IMC you are flying IFR, log it as actual.
 
Bo Knows! Bo says, Log It!

image.jpeg
 
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sarangan said:
There is no way the FAA or the insurance company (in case of a future accident) are going to know the exact weather conditions when you flew the approach for currency. If in doubt, you should use your judgement if it demanded enough instrument skills to meet the spirit of the rule.
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This. I would really not worry so much about the exact wording of the rule as whether I had enough actual conditions after the FAF to help me retain proficiency. If I was mostly visual after the FAF I probably wouldn't log it. If I crossed the FAF in the clag and stayed there for a while but ultimately broke out, even if it was well before the MAP, I would probably log it. If I was in and out of the clouds between FAF and MAP I would probably log that as well, since as someone said that can be extremely disorienting and in that situation I would still be firmly on the gauges. If I broke out right after the FAF and saw no IMC save a couple of wisps of cloud, I would not log it.

The best advice is to use your best judgment, honestly and conscientiously.
 
In your hypothetical, I think you were always flying solely by reference to instruments and never entered true VMC (where the clouds were far enough away). You should log it.
 
Grum.Man said:
Seemed pretty clear to me that unless you are VFR from the IAF in, it can be logged. The only real stipulation is that if it's VFR from the IAF through the rest of the approach then it can't be logged.
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I think you mean the FAF, don't you? The InFO letter linked to above repeatedly refers to the final approach segment and FAF.
 
Back in the day I thought it was ‘1000 & 3’ or less on the weather, to log. Then you have discussion of ‘no visible horizon’, we may also factor in night time.

Some may say, ‘fly what you want, log what you need’. As long as you don’t crash, much of it shouldn’t matter much.
 
I log every approach when I’m flying. I do differentiate between approach types when I do however, so I have lots and lots of visual approaches. As for Precision/Non-Precision approach types, I agree with the majority here. It’s entirely up to you when you log it. If you fly through a cloud while executing an ILS and log it. Great. If not, that’s fine too. Just be consistent.
 
Do you log time on top of a hazy layer where it is hard to define a horizon but clear above? What about severe clear on top, at night, over the ocean?

It’s not something to get your panties in a wad over. YOU are work8ng on procedures so that whether you are in the clouds (your supposed to be looking at the instruments not the clouds) or not, work on procedures.

As a former airline interviewer....make your logged time realistic. You fly in the Pacific Northwest and have 1000 hours actual logged and 3000 total time? Not a problem but as one guy came in with 5000 hours total time and 3500 actual and all his time was in the sunny south? We had a long talk about what constitutes actual. And no he wasn’t hired but for other reasons.
 
Are you worried about following the rules to the letter,or actually being comfortable when you have to go actual.
 
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