How many were low actual time IFR?

bugsiegel

bugsiegel

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Bugsiegel
how long did it intake before you were comfortable alone in IMC?
I'm editing this some. and how many fly actual in planes NOT equipped with auto pilot?
 
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bugsiegel said:
how long did it intake before you were comfortable alone in IMC?
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I'd say about 10/15 hours of actual. I only have about 30 total.

I wasn't completely comfortable with students in actual until my last flight a few days ago.

It was fun for about 5/10 hours, which is the same for my students right now. Now I avoid it if I can. I dislike having to hand fly actual IFR unless I'm in the Arrow. It just gets annoying and tiresome.
 
I wouldn't stop due to IMC right after training, probably 20hrs IFR or so after my IFR ticket I was more comfy, just got easier and easier after that.

The plane I trained in didn't have a AP or GPS, now days if I'm in IMC it's in a /G with autopilot, GPSS and alt.


Everyone is diffrent, both in comfort in conditions and equipment.
 
Not very long,however wouldn't fly IMC now without an autopilot. Still enjoy single pilot IFR.
 
No autopilot but I usually go places where comm is a lower workload it seems, makes the whole job a lot easier.
 
I suspect it depends on your training. I got a fair amount of actual during training so I felt comfortable right after getting my ticket. The first 100+ were without an autopilot. It's much more tiring without one!
 
I had only about 5 hours total actual at the time of the checkride, but one very good confidence builder a month before that left me feeling pretty comfortable, enough to get my ticket wet in hard IMC a week later. That turned out to be a little too close to ice for comfort, but that's another story.
 
During training my CFI took me up an actual so I became immediately comfortable with it. Every CFI should take their students in actual. The day after I got my ticket I shot my first approach down to minimums. I have about 40 hours actual
 
0 Actual time until after getting instrument rated.

The day after getting instrument rated got my 1st actual alone. I was behind the plane and felt inadequately prepared.

Flew every flight under IFR for a few months afterwards to build comfort.
 
I had minimum actual during my training. I eased into getting the ticket wet with minimum ceilings so I had an out.

Now, I would get in the plane and go barring ice or boomers. I'm always /G and no A/P. A nice STec 30 with GPSS sure would make life easier.
 
FORANE said:
0 Actual time until after getting instrument rated.

The day after getting instrument rated got my 1st actual alone. I was behind the plane and felt inadequately prepared.

Flew every flight under IFR for a few months afterwards to build comfort.
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0 actual!

Any sim time?

I wouldn't feel right letting a student loose without some actual.


During much of my IFR I as in a Frasca with no screen, just fiberglass and a full panel, with a super high time CFII watching the computer readout, and me, like a hawk, made IMC much easier during training.
 
James331 said:
0 actual!

Any sim time?

I wouldn't feel right letting a student loose without some actual.


During much of my IFR I as in a Frasca with no screen, just fiberglass and a full panel, with a super high time CFII watching the computer readout, and me, like a hawk, made IMC much easier during training.
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I was working out of state and had limited availability during the year I took to get the instrument ticket. I would only be in any given location for a few weeks so I ended up with a total of 10 CFII's.

Yes, I did get some time in a Frasca; what was it 10 hours allowed in a sim? I did get something like 10 sim hours if I recall.

I strongly believe some actual time should be required. I did not feel ready and was keenly aware of this by the time I landed after my 1st instrument flight.

I may be off base but think most of the CFII's I had were themselves low time with limited actual experience. In any field, a weakness of an instructor will be reflected in a weakness of their student.
 
Two people I know well. One the father who flew 14000 hours, ATP, CFI! etc. Now deceased. Excellent pilot . Said it took about 500 hours, flying four seasons before he was truly somewhat at ease. Retired, he passed away recently. His son, flew helio for a med Evac company , has high time in lear jets and MU2s and is approaching his fathers hours said about the same plus he stresses it must be flown constantly , often, to be really good at it. I never even attempted an instrument ticket for the above reason. Too many I knew died flying into weather that was beyond their capabilitys. I learned enough to get me out of trouble.( I asked the son what airplane he enjoyed flying the most, he said without hesitating, the MU2., but that it was "not for beginners.) " I flew with him in it several times, amazing airplane! Son now flys big helicopter for a corporation, hes about 58 yrs. old.
 
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LDJones said:
I suspect it depends on your training. I got a fair amount of actual during training so I felt comfortable right after getting my ticket.
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Same for me. I was very comfortable with actual after my checkride. I did a flight mostly in IMC (1.3 flight, 1.o Actual; 0,8 night) the week after I got my ticket and actively sought out the little IMC available in Colorado when I first moved there about a week after that.

But with Colorado being Colorado, I didn't get much actual time after that and I was much less comfortable (despite much greater knowledge and understanding) with actual when I first moved back to the east.
 
I got .3 in training, and only another 1.0 in the years after my rating. Once I got on with the airline, it took probably around 15-20 to feel comfortable in IMC.

No autopilot is more fun! Sure, in straight-n-level cruise I'll use it so I can get some paperwork done, but by the time I'm at least 30-40 miles out, I'll kill George. Why should he have all the fun?
 
I got about 15 hours of actual and flew an ILS down to minimums and landed (a bit off, but still safe). The other end of the runway was still in fog. I did it, it was always a bit nerve wracking, got ice and survived. Learned that clouds are all different but similarities, in that there are "types" of clouds. Learned not to fly in clouds below freezing unless I have a Pirep no ice or have warm VFR under me I can descent do (above the MVA). Anyway, actual IMC is a bit scary single pilot in a no deice, non turbuchardged plane. Some flight captains in the majors wouldn't do it in my plane . I had an autopilot, but I never really trusted it. It failed in VMC and I let it do its thing and I woulda been upside down in a bout 20 seconds. Yikes. But, I used it in IMC. I have some good stories to tell, that's for sure (ICE, 35mph takeoff and 80mph aloft, and my 200' ILS). Don't do it anymore. Too many other things going on to get current etc. My stories don't include any perfect approaches in impossible conditions by a superior pilot though. They are about crappy weather, ATC mistakes and few less than perfect things....well you know.
 
I did a bunch of actual during my training. My first flight after my check ride was 3.5hrs of IMC /U no autopilot.
 
Train like you will fly. Fly like you train. I did a bunch of actual during training, and my first solo IFR flight was IMC with an ILS approach at the end. A non event. I flew for 20 years in IMC without an autopilot. It gets old. I have a single axis AP now.
 
I did NOT fly in actual IMC at all during my training but I felt comfortable in my abilities and I did it. I flew into a 600' overcast, solo, within a week of getting my rating. It was a short flight from 5T6- KELP. Flew the LOC/DME 4. It was my first time ever flying over Mexico too, but I didn't see the ground at all. I did a full stop (didn't shutdown though) and picked up a new clearance before I headed back to 5T6. IMC all the way back until about 5 miles to the airport, made a visual back there.
I had probably close to 1000 hours of hand flying in IMC on my simulator that made me really comfortable with the idea of flying in the soup. However, I had never been in the soup before that day but strangely didn't get disoriented at all. Felt really good to finally do it.

I don't know how to use an autopilot. Also, I am just as comfortable flying with /A as I am with a GTN 750.
 
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LDJones said:
I suspect it depends on your training. I got a fair amount of actual during training so I felt comfortable right after getting my ticket. The first 100+ were without an autopilot. It's much more tiring without one!
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I was the same way. had a bit of actual in training and ran into a little un-forecast clouds 10 days later and had to do my first actual approach (I was on an IFR flight plan though for practice, so it was seemless).

Now it's old hat, though on a lengthy flight, the autopilot certainly reduces the workload.
 
I must be an outlier. I was comfortable with it from day 1. It probably helped that I did my instrument in the PNW in the winter time so I was flying around in actual from lesson 4 on or so. I can jump back in actual, single pilot IFR, with little recency rashes. It is all about the prep beforehand, putting things where they need to be, accessed in a moments notice, and flying the entire flight in your head before starting the engine so nothing jumps out at you. YMMV
 
Due to schedule constraints, I used a 10-day IR program. Did a lot of reading beforehand, so focus during training was on integrating approaches into flying and working in the system.

Did not get any IMC during those 10 days.

I was a little apprehensive about flying in actual at first..."fear of the unknown". Had I even had .5 in actual I think it would have made a big difference. First time in actual, my a/p went wonky on me and I was forced to hand-fly. Got the blood pumping a bit but also very quickly gave me an opportunity to realize, "Hey, I've been trained for this and it's no problem."

No issues since then. Glad I have an a/p and GPSS, but am ready to fly in IMC without them if required, too.
 
bugsiegel said:
how long did it intake before you were comfortable alone in IMC?
I'm editing this some. and how many fly actual in planes NOT equipped with auto pilot?
Click to expand...

I was pretty comfortable in actual IMC alone from the start. But note that I took the approach (no pun) discussed in Taylor's "Instrument Flying (or was it Book's "Weather flying"?) where you start with easy IMC and gradually work your way up to more challenging instrument conditions. Depart VMC, fly enroute IMC with VMC easily available, arrive VMC. Then harder enroute IMC. etc etc.

I added a wing-leveler to my cherokee 140 several years after getting my instrument ticket. It's a nice-to-have in a 140, the airplane isn't so fast that it'll get away from you quickly.
 
I felt best-prepared immediately after my IR check ride. Got maybe 1.0 or so actual during the IR training. First IFR flight after checkride was San Antonio to Addison in a 182 with busted autopilot, had to do a long IMC climb, and probably 20 minutes of vectoring in IMC for an ILS to 400'; I was sorta loopy about the whole thing after it was over, but during the flight, never felt intimidated (about 30 seconds of the leans during the climb, then the brain agreed to play along, but it was really hard to ignore the impulse to turn the yoke!).

Really would like to go out and get seriously proficient...
 
I came out of IR training with 20+ hours of actual. I was pretty comfortable with it after my check ride.
 
jordane93 said:
The day after I got my ticket I shot my first approach down to minimums.
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Similar, a few days after passing the IR ride I shot a night ILS approach to near minimums. Not a problem.
 
not a lot of actual but gobs of simulated (hood). I have only shot 2 approaches in imc past the FAF and one was during my pvt 3 hrs of instrument and the other was during my inst training right before my check ride. We had amazing weather for all of my inst then utter crap for my commercial which we needed vfr...



I love flying in clouds. Just don't have the approaches in actual for the confidence.
 
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I'd add that I've gotten some very compelling sim training which I believe to have been very valuable. One scenario, instructor failed my vacuum gyros while I was on top, then "ATC" started vectoring me for an ILS approach, with a lot of in the clouds time (nothing wild, just more appropriate for a fella without gyro failure).

I actually survived it (not beautifully), but instructor told me, "if this happens to you, insist upon remaining above the clouds until you're in line with the runway, on the LOC. then, just ride the beam down."

Great to learn that lesson in that way.
 
While working on my IR, I needed X/C time, and on top of it it was in socal in summer, so the marine layer was pervasive. On a couple trips we flew the ILS at SNA down to minimums, and went missed on the VOR-A at OKB more times than I care to count. I have been comfortable in actual since I was a student and my CFI suggested we fly on a marine layer day. We
 
I had zero actual when I got my IR (despite telling myself I wouldn't do that before I started). Lots of simulator time (including some in a full motion simulator).

My first flight after getting the ticket was a flight where I climbed through the clouds, and flew an approach down to about 900 (600 was the min). No issues at all.

After about 10 - 15 hours in actual I felt much more ahead of the plane, particularly with knowing what call from ATC I was going to get. Situtational awareness was much better by that point as well.

I looked, I have about 20 hours in actual without an AP and about 25 with. I can do it without an AP, but it is definitely more tiring. Particularly when ATC throws a curve at you.
 
I found it difficult to find CFII's who wanted to do a lot of actual training for whatever reason.... I went through 4 instructors and my last one (who i got my IRA from) had no problem flying actual. I suggest getting as much actual as you can. Foggles are nowhere close to the real thing. I have about 50 hours now and am very glad to have gotten the actual training i did because even after 50 there times when you realize why some pilots get into a pickle in IMC.... All of my training was hand flying as the auto pilot in my trainer didn't work very well.
 
bugsiegel said:
how long did it intake before you were comfortable alone in IMC?
I'm editing this some. and how many fly actual in planes NOT equipped with auto pilot?
Click to expand...

Probably about 20 hours before I was comfortable in it. Yes, I typically fly without an autopilot, VFR or IFR.
 
The thought kinda scares the foo out of me... but that is what I'm working on now (IR). Being in the soup - I think I'll get over that at some point. Not seeing the buildups - got some learning to do there ...
 
zwaustin said:
I found it difficult to find CFII's who wanted to do a lot of actual training for whatever reason.... I went through 4 instructors and my last one (who i got my IRA from) had no problem flying actual. I suggest getting as much actual as you can. Foggles are nowhere close to the real thing. I have about 50 hours now and am very glad to have gotten the actual training i did because even after 50 there times when you realize why some pilots get into a pickle in IMC.... All of my training was hand flying as the auto pilot in my trainer didn't work very well.
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It's good to find CFIs who aren't afraid of the clouds and who will take you up in actual. Whenever the ceilings and visibility were within reason, my CFI would file and we would shoot approaches and holds.
 
jordane93 said:
It's good to find CFIs who aren't afraid of the clouds and who will take you up in actual. Whenever the ceilings and visibility were within reason, my CFI would file and we would shoot approaches and holds.
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I think probably most CFIIs will be willing to take you up in actual when the ceilings and visibility are "within reason". The trouble is, everyone has a different definition of "within reason". So that you can make it in somewhere nearby? At home field only? So that you can pick a good landing spot in case of engine out? My first CFII would only take me up if he was sure we could get back in at home. Since the MDA of the only approach he was really familiar with was 700 feet (his own plane didn't have an IFR GPS), that translated to 1000 ft ceilings, and I can only remember a couple of flights in actual with him, one of them by complete accident (sudden snow squall).

My finish-up CFII was quite willing to let me fly the RNAV down to minimums if necessary to get in (and if we didn't get in, to bum a ride from the Class D field 15 miles away). The one time we did that, we got in at home just fine, and the flight taught me a good lesson about always favoring the downwind straight-in over the circling approach to a wind-favored landing, a lesson that has stuck ever since.
 
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