How can this happen?

[Velocity173]

Maybe- then he should turned one of us . . . I was not at MVA yet - just BARELY perhaps - its 2800 in that area - but the C90 sure was -

what was inneresting is he waas heading north - near POC - at 3500 - at least thats what was called out. There is not much more north you can go at 3500 in that neck of the woods without encountering granite. . . .

Without actually seeing how close your track was to his it's hard to say if any intervention should have been done. If its as close as you describe, I just would have held you at 3,000 until I was positive of target resolution or you both passed each other.

 

[timwinters]

How often do you listen to the ATIS of EVERY airport that you pass near on a cross country flight?

Put me squarely in the camp of "this was a non-issue" and no panty wadding was justified.

 

[roncachamp]

When I was flying into an airport in TN, they did not clear me for any sort of approach, just vectors to the aiport. I was in and out of the bases, and could see the ground but not the airport ahead, visibility was more than 10. I asked for lower and he said I was already at the MVA, and wouldn't clear me lower. I can't cancel IFR because I'm not 500' below, and I can't get a visual, because I don't have the airport in sight. I suppose I could have asked for a published approach, and flown opposite direction to get the IAF, but at that point a contact approach is better.

You wrote; "This is what a contact approach is for if they won't clear you lower, then cancel." "Won't" implies that they can clear you lower, but will not. If you're at the MVA you're at the lowest altitude that can be issued. "Can't clear you lower" would have been a better choice of words.

 

[roncachamp]

2-1-21 Traffic Advisories

'Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your frequency when, in your judgement, their proximity may diminish to less than the applicable separation minima.'


Apparently the controller thought separation might be an issue.

Controllers often advise of nearby traffic when separation is not an issue.

 

[EdFred]

You wrote; "This is what a contact approach is for if they won't clear you lower, then cancel." "Won't" implies that they can clear you lower, but will not. If you're at the MVA you're at the lowest altitude that can be issued. "Can't clear you lower" would have been a better choice of words.

Well, technically they *won't*. They *can*, if they choose. It may be breaking a JO, but they *can*. Just like I *can* go out and shoot someone. It is illegal - I just have to suffer the consequences if caught, but I *can* do it. I stand by my "won't."

 

[river_rat]

Maybe- then he should turned one of us . . . I was not at MVA yet - just BARELY perhaps - its 2800 in that area - but the C90 sure was -

what was inneresting is he waas heading north - near POC - at 3500 - at least thats what was called out. There is not much more north you can go at 3500 in that neck of the woods without encountering granite. . . .

Probably dropping sterile medflys, if you didn't get any on your window you weren't that close

http://video.pbssocal.org/video/2343925483/

 

[Palmpilot]

You never cancel until you're 1000 feet above the tops. If you're VFR, the tops are always at least 1000 feet below whatever your altitude is.

Unless the pilot slips and spills the beans, it's very hard to prove otherwise.

When climbing through a cloud deck with the intention of canceling on top, I pay attention to the altitude at which I break out and wait until I'm 1000 feet above that. I'm not sure if all pilots wait that long to cancel.

If I'm arriving VFR over an undercast, I do my best to estimate where the tops are if no tops report is available, but it's pretty much by guess and by golly. I'm not worried about proof, because I've never been challenged on it and doubt I ever will.

 

[Jim_R]

Is there a measuring device in common use at airports that can detect cloud tops?

Yes.

(How does it work?)

ATC asks a departing aircraft for a tops report. Pilot breaks out on top and reports the value displayed on the altimeter to ATC.

Huh...Is that how it works??!? Stupid me, I thought ATC got PIREPs, like I said in the very next line of my message that you chose not to quote. Thanks for taking the time to carefully explain to me how it works! I feel very much smarter now! You are such a good teacher!!!!!!!!!1

 

[schmookeeg]

Probably dropping sterile medflys, if you didn't get any on your window you weren't that close

http://video.pbssocal.org/video/2343925483/

This. Dynamic's KAs bop in and out of the IFR system all the time in the basin. One of them was possibly playing a little loose with the VFR leash

 

[apg86]

I'm departing POC in IMC - 800OVC, tops at 2700MSL - so the cloud deck is about 1000' ATC clears me to "4000, Bracket 26 departure procedure, PRADO V16 PDZ etc etc etc"

The Brackett 26 procedure is runway heading to 1400, left turn to 130, intercept V363 from POM to PRADO.

So I'm climbing out of about 1700 on my way to 4000 - in the turn to 130 - get shopped to SoCal and get an immediate traffic call out: "90P. traffic. 1 o'clock, 3,500, a VFR King Air.

Immediately after that, out of 2900, I get a traffic alert on my GTX-330, I just broke out of the clouds looking for the traffic and there is he - less than a mile - about 3500.

How can a King Air, or anyone, be VFR at 3500, less than 1000 over the top? How can ATC be enabling that type of activity? The ATIS was stating "tops reported at 2800."

Was there much of a collision risk? Perhaps No. Not really - as long as I stayed on the DP I was moderately safe, and IFR does not guarantee separation from VFR traffic - but I'm transitioning from gauges to visual and he is very definitely NOT VFR.

Am I guaranteed sep from IFR flight planned traffic or traffic talking to ATC that SHOULD be on an IFR flight plan? That playing fast and loose with the rules kind of ****ed me off.

I bet you was one of the King Air from Dynamic working a grid to do the Medfly control they fly 6 days a week at 3500", this airplanes they are base at Los Alamitos. The controller new exactly whete that airplane was going and was out of your way

 

[roncachamp]

Huh...Is that how it works??!? Stupid me, I thought ATC got PIREPs, like I said in the very next line of my message that you chose not to quote. Thanks for taking the time to carefully explain to me how it works! I feel very much smarter now! You are such a good teacher!!!!!!!!!1

You're welcome.

 

[aterpster]

ATC provides IFR/VFR separation in Class B and C airspace. IFR/VFR separation is also provided to participating traffic in the Outer Area associated with Class C airspace areas and in TRSAs. POC is in the Outer Area associated with the Ontario Class C airspace, we know the VFR King Air was participating traffic because the type was known and the Mode C had been verified. Nothing in the OP indicates there was less than the minimum required separation.

Note that the outer area ends just at the west end of KPOC. And, the floor is 2,700. Chances are that the typically performing spam can will pass west of the outer ring and be below the floor once re-entering on a heading of 130. Perhaps there is no nominal Class C separation responsibility between the IFR departure and the participating VFR airplane in this area and circumstances?

 

[roncachamp]

Note that the outer area ends just at the west end of KPOC. And, the floor is 2,700. Chances are that the typically performing spam can will pass west of the outer ring and be below the floor once re-entering on a heading of 130. Perhaps there is no nominal Class C separation responsibility between the IFR departure and the participating VFR airplane in this area and circumstances?

That's the Class C airspace proper, the Outer Area is not charted.

From the P/CG:

OUTER AREA (associated with Class C airspace)−
Nonregulatory airspace surrounding designated
Class C airspace airports wherein ATC provides radar
vectoring and sequencing on a full-time basis for all
IFR and participating VFR aircraft. The service
provided in the outer area is called Class C service
which includes: IFR/IFR−standard IFR separation;
IFR/VFR−traffic advisories and conflict resolution;
and VFR/VFR−traffic advisories and, as appropriate,
safety alerts. The normal radius will be 20 nautical
miles with some variations based on site-specific
requirements. The outer area extends outward from
the primary Class C airspace airport and extends from
the lower limits of radar/radio coverage up to the
ceiling of the approach control’s delegated airspace
excluding the Class C charted area and other airspace
as appropriate.

See also AIM 3−2−4. Class C Airspace and Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control chapter 7 section 8 Class C Service− Terminal.

 

[aterpster]

That's the Class C airspace proper, the Outer Area is not charted.

From the P/CG:



See also AIM 3−2−4. Class C Airspace and Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control chapter 7 section 8 Class C Service− Terminal.

Thanks. So, the outer area is usually a 20 mile radius but it may be something more or less I presume. And, pilots do not know the actual boundary.

 

[roncachamp]

Thanks.

You're welcome.

So, the outer area is usually a 20 mile radius but it may be something more or less I presume.

I can't see how it could be more, I can see it being less by overlapping with other Class C or Class B airspace.

And, pilots do not know the actual boundary.

Those that don't have only themselves to blame.

 

[comanchepilot]

The other point here folks is that I was Class D airspace until entered the shelf of the Class C airspace . . .

So I was in controlled airspace the entire time.

 

[roncachamp]

The other point here folks is that I was Class D airspace until entered the shelf of the Class C airspace . . .

So I was in controlled airspace the entire time.

As would still be the case if there was Class E airspace between the Class D and Class C. Not an issue as the separation requirements were the same in all three.

 

[GCA319]

Why do you think ATC knew what the VFR guys cloud clearance was? What sort of technology do you think they have that would tell the controller that? Maybe this too belongs in the peeve thread?

Pretty much this..