Hold short, hold, hold, hold, hold, hold, hold ...

GreatLakesFlying

GreatLakesFlying

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
226
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Chicago, IL
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Display name:
Leo
Yesterday there was a welcome break in the weather and I flew from Schaumburg to KJVL to celebrate my first 100 hours as PIC after earning my PPL. After the celebratory coffee and apple-cinnamon donuts at Bessie's, I climbed in the airplane for the flight back. This is my departure. It was quite comical. Apparently everyone else was flying into KJVL and I was the only traffic out!

 
lol funny vid. looking back, that is. I'm sure it wasn't too funny at the time.
 
I got to hold short for 15 minutes in 100° heat so an airliner could land on the crossing runway then taxi back past mine . . . . Nevermind I could have taken off and departed the airspace before it reached short final.
 
That’s one thing I can’t complain about being based at a small non-towered field. When I’m ready to take the active, very extremely rarely do I ever have to wait on anyone!
 
Spent five minutes holding for traffic once, followed by about seven minutes waiting for a Super Cub to eventually find the numbers. I could have done a lap in the pattern for a touch and go, but the tower said hold, lol.
 
Tower be like...

hold-hold-now-esperen-ahora-mel-gibson-brace-heart-braveheart-vagonettas-2.gif
 
You’d think they’d give you “cleared for TO rwy 4, no delay”. We get that a lot here, sometimes results in a go around, but that’s great for training (it’s a training airport). Have had it happen to me in the air and on the ground.
 
Monpilot said:
I’d rather spend my $2 a minute up in the air, but what can you do? I still enjoyed the video, because it was free :)
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Making me do math, think I’m like 5GPH at idle, at 5 a gal, that’s like 40 cents a minute, figure times two for oil and plugs and stuff, 80 cents a minute to hold short I think.
 
When I was at DPA and 3CK, that was my favorite burger run. Back then it was the CAVU Cafe. Then something like Kelly's.

Never had to wait like that though.
 
Be mindful of carb ice sitting there on the ground waiting... I would pull it full on sitting there, the engine is in the the same area of operation that while flying we wouldn't think of not having carb heat on... I fly a known ice maker so I'm all the more mindful of it, but its something to think about as you set there idling.
 
Huckster79 said:
Be mindful of carb ice sitting there on the ground waiting...
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Never seen an IO360 get carb ice before...fouled plugs from a rich mixture while sitting there that long for sure...:)

Or was that just a general statement for carb engines... ;)
 
Huckster79 said:
Be mindful of carb ice sitting there on the ground waiting... I would pull it full on sitting there, the engine is in the the same area of operation that while flying we wouldn't think of not having carb heat on... I fly a known ice maker so I'm all the more mindful of it, but its something to think about as you set there idling.
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Not sure I’d want unfiltered air on the ground, pull the mixture back sure.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
You’d think they’d give you “cleared for TO rwy 4, no delay”. We get that a lot here, sometimes results in a go around, but that’s great for training (it’s a training airport). Have had it happen to me in the air and on the ground.
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Seems there were opportunities to get out. They could have told him to LUAW as soon as landing traffic passed and cleared for takeoff as soon as it was 3000 down the runway, right? I'm not a controller so maybe I'm all wrong, but I avoid busy towered fields for this reason and I would have been irritated.
 
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Middle of winter not moving.... I’ll opt for carb heat... in summer I’d say prob not the whole time but you can bet I’d hit it for a bit longer than that quick blast to check it’s effectiveness before I took off.

And yea it was a general statement not model specific...
 
Hell, shut it down and surf the internet. Not like you were awaiting IFR release lol.....
 
Lantraxco said:
Spent five minutes holding for traffic once, followed by about seven minutes waiting for a Super Cub to eventually find the numbers. I could have done a lap in the pattern for a touch and go, but the tower said hold, lol.
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Coming out of El Monte, I sat 15 minutes awaiting IFR release only to have them give me an updated clearance from hell. It had me vectoring all over the So Cal basin. I thought they were calling me to tell me cleared for takeoff lol. After departure I was given vectors to V186 - VNY etc.. which was essentially the clearance I had filed. The 15 minute hold cost me $33.75 but who's counting
 
Huckster79 said:
Middle of winter not moving.... I’ll opt for carb heat... in summer I’d say prob not the whole time but you can bet I’d hit it for a bit longer than that quick blast to check it’s effectiveness before I took off.

And yea it was a general statement not model specific...
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With how much sand I see on runways no bueno
 
Well, at least you can log it. ;)

Longest I've ever had to wait for takeoff was actually at an uncontrolled field - 45 minutes, but no other traffic in sight! Weather was slightly less than VMC, so I needed to get my clearance on the ground, but the airport was close enough to another airport that they couldn't release me. I had a phone line open to FSS, who kept putting me back on hold, saying I needed to wait a few more minutes, etc... On the 2nd or 3rd time we were talking, I asked what was going on and they told me it was another plane doing approaches at another airport.

Come to find out, it was a Beechjet of all things! Who shoots practice approaches in a jet anyway? So I sat and watched my ADS-B until I figured out what airplane it was and where they were, flipped to the CTAF for that airport and asked if they could please knock it off long enough for me to get out. :D
 
Huckster79 said:
Middle of winter not moving.... I’ll opt for carb heat... in summer I’d say prob not the whole time but you can bet I’d hit it for a bit longer than that quick blast to check it’s effectiveness before I took off.

And yea it was a general statement not model specific...
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Was thinking the same thing. Sitting at idle for that long in our 182 would sound like a perfect recipe for heating engine cough hard or quit 20 sec into full power.
Flying around today in NEPA I think I had heat on more then I didn’t. Was one of those Hazy winter days!
 
benyflyguy said:
Was thinking the same thing. Sitting at idle for that long in our 182 would sound like a perfect recipe for heating engine cough hard or quit 20 sec into full power.
Flying around today in NEPA I think I had heat on more then I didn’t. Was one of those Hazy winter days!
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Yup... One doesnt have to hunt too hard to find an NTSB crash report that was engine failure at take off and no apparent engine problems found. Not saying they all are, but sure seems like carb ice could be the issue with some of these...

Unfiltered air issue asside, which are valid as well, carb ice is a possibility while we idle on the ground. Some m&m more so than others
 
Glad the longest hold I get in Juneau is for wake turbulence from AK Airlines landing..:) Unlike a lot of others I always hold for wake turbulence.
 
I wouldn’t keep the carb heat on for the entire time spent holding short. Just pull the knob out for a few seconds, until the roughness clears, every 5-10 minutes and again right before departure. Keep your hand on the knob when it’s out.

I understand the concern about unfiltered air. But an iced up carburetor changes everything.
 
I think the worst part is seeing that yellow cub land at least twice while waiting...
 
GreatLakesFlying said:
Yesterday there was a welcome break in the weather and I flew from Schaumburg to KJVL to celebrate my first 100 hours as PIC after earning my PPL. After the celebratory coffee and apple-cinnamon donuts at Bessie's, I climbed in the airplane for the flight back. This is my departure. It was quite comical. Apparently everyone else was flying into KJVL and I was the only traffic out!

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We’re that Cub and that Cessna we saw more than once the same airplanes doing pattern work?
 
Lindberg said:
Seems there were opportunities to get out. They could have told him to LUAW as soon as landing traffic passed and cleared for takeoff as soon as it was 3000 down the runway, right? I'm not a controller so maybe I'm all wrong, but I avoid busy towered fields for this reason and I would have been irritated.
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A preceding aircraft that landed would have to be off the runway. If it was a preceding departure than airborne and 3000 could work. LUAW is more restrictive than it was years ago. Not all Towers can do it. Those that can usually have a rule that an extra controller must be there to keep an eye on things.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well, at least you can log it. ;)

Longest I've ever had to wait for takeoff was actually at an uncontrolled field - 45 minutes, but no other traffic in sight! Weather was slightly less than VMC, so I needed to get my clearance on the ground, but the airport was close enough to another airport that they couldn't release me. I had a phone line open to FSS, who kept putting me back on hold, saying I needed to wait a few more minutes, etc... On the 2nd or 3rd time we were talking, I asked what was going on and they told me it was another plane doing approaches at another airport.

Come to find out, it was a Beechjet of all things! Who shoots practice approaches in a jet anyway? So I sat and watched my ADS-B until I figured out what airplane it was and where they were, flipped to the CTAF for that airport and asked if they could please knock it off long enough for me to get out. :D
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I would have been livid if that happened to me. They gots a rule against delaying itenerate traffic for Practice Approaches.
 
luvflyin said:
I would have been livid if that happened to me. They gots a rule against delaying itenerate traffic for Practice Approaches.
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At least the controller should of extended their downwind to let him depart. I would of asked ATC to do that, or on the flip side, if I was one of those up in the pattern I would of offered up to extend
 
Mooney Fan said:
At least the controller should of extended their downwind to let him depart. I would of asked ATC to do that, or on the flip side, if I was one of those up in the pattern I would of offered up to extend
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Yeah. Controller shoulda done all that on his own. A simple “number 2 follow the Cessna, leave me room for one departure” works very well.
 
The other night i decided to head KCOS to knock out my solo night landings w control tower. I figured springs has a nice big runway for the most part dedicated to GA traffic and it is rarely busy. Well something was up with the main runway because i got the, "I'll call your base" then at midfield I'm told to do a 360, then I'm told to fly between the parallels, then I'm told switch runways (to the "big" main runway). When I'm abeam the nunbers the 737 holding short says they're ready. I think the guy felt bad for me because he had the 737 hold short for the landing 152 and cleared me for the option. I did my stop and go. I thought it was funny having the skychicken stick it to the big guys.
 
Did you cheese off the controller on arrival or something? I don't have the whole picture there but from what I saw on your video, that's just bad service on their part.
 
I hope you weren't in a rental aircraft. With that prop turning, the hobbs meter is ticking regardless.
 
luvflyin said:
We’re that Cub and that Cessna we saw more than once the same airplanes doing pattern work?
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The only aircraft working the pattern was the jet that you see landing first in my video. It taxied back and was behind me while I was waiting for the last 4 landings -- it's all in the real-time video. Everyone else was flying in either to go to the diner or to a full-stop.

I really thought that I'd be given a line-up-and-wait after the second landing or maybe a takeoff-no-delay clearance after the third time. And when I heard the tower instructing someone to do a 360 on downwind I thought, oh, he is making room for me. Nope, he was making room to accommodate some other inbound traffic.

@IK04, there are two yellow planes in the video: first one is a Cub, the second is a warbird. I did not wait for any closed traffic to come down again. The only closed traffic is the jet and he got behind me waiting to go back into the pattern.

For those of you who recommended carb heat while idling at 1000 RPM, I was flying a DA40 and there is no carb heat. But I did lean the mixture a bit after the second landing (when tower advised inbound traffic that they are #2, #3, and #4 to land).

All-in-all it was more comical than annoying. And yes, in a rental airplane every minute counts, especially when a 30-minute flight starts with a 15-minute hold-short wait. At least that particular plane is billed by tach not by Hobbs.

I trust the controller had his reasons. Maybe I should have advised tower that I am ready for a no-delay departure, hinting at my willingness to work with him. I know that at KPWK, with a certain controller, this kind of a gentle hint would have resulted in a verbal dress-down, so I am careful with such things ;-)
 
Timbeck2 said:
Did you cheese off the controller on arrival or something? I don't have the whole picture there but from what I saw on your video, that's just bad service on their part.
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I hope not. It was routine but cordial exchange from the handoff from RFD approach to KJVL tower to parking, and the same when I called ground for taxing. I went through the full videos to see if I missed something that might have annoyed the controller. Didn't notice anything. And if he was "punishing" me for something, there was no reason to extend the punishment to the jet that was waiting behind me for 4 of these 7 landings.

As I said, this was more comical than annoying and my guess is that the controller, who was working all positions at the time, maybe have gotten a bit busy with an unusual number of arrivals. I thought about contacting the airport manager saying listen, this is not a big deal but there was room between those 7 landings for at least one departure. In the big picture, I had no major reason to complain and that's why I turned the experience into a funny video to share with this group.
 
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luvflyin said:
I would have been livid if that happened to me. They gots a rule against delaying itenerate traffic for Practice Approaches.
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Yeah, I wasn't real happy, but what can I do? And where's that rule?

Mooney Fan said:
At least the controller should of extended their downwind to let him depart. I would of asked ATC to do that, or on the flip side, if I was one of those up in the pattern I would of offered up to extend
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Well, we were both at different uncontrolled fields, I had FSS on the phone, she was calling ATC on the phone every few minutes, and ATC would have occasionally had the Beechjet on the radio. Not like it was something that was quick or easy to coordinate. I think after the second one it would have been nice for ATC to ask "How will this approach terminate" and maybe vector the jet around long enough to get me out, but again, not easy to coordinate when he's waiting for another phone call from FSS (and, of course, working other traffic at the same time).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Yeah, I wasn't real happy, but what can I do? And where's that rule?



Well, we were both at different uncontrolled fields, I had FSS on the phone, she was calling ATC on the phone every few minutes, and ATC would have occasionally had the Beechjet on the radio. Not like it was something that was quick or easy to coordinate. I think after the second one it would have been nice for ATC to ask "How will this approach terminate" and maybe vector the jet around long enough to get me out, but again, not easy to coordinate when he's waiting for another phone call from FSS (and, of course, working other traffic at the same time).
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7110.65 4-8-11
 
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