Hershey bar wings and landing

FlyBoyAndy

FlyBoyAndy

Pre-takeoff checklist
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FlyBoyAndy
I have experience in both high wing and low wing airplanes, and I have owned a Cherokee 180 with Hershey bar wings since 2019 and love the plane. It seems like I struggle at times with my landings in this plane like I have never had before. It could be anything from flare too soon, to a bounce landing, to not enough angle, and so on. I've tried the POH airspeeds and then my own, steeper descents, shallow descents, right on the GS.

So I'm asking, does anyone else out there have a same experience, and if so what changes did you make. We will not even discuss my last crosswind landing.
 
FlyBoyAndy said:
I have experience in both high wing and low wing airplanes, and I have owned a Cherokee 180 with Hershey bar wings since 2019 and love the plane. It seems like I struggle at times with my landings in this plane like I have never had before. It could be anything from flare too soon, to a bounce landing, to not enough angle, and so on. I've tried the POH airspeeds and then my own, steeper descents, shallow descents, right on the GS.

So I'm asking, does anyone else out there have a same experience, and if so what changes did you make. We will not even discuss my last crosswind landing.
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Start by flying on speed. Airspeed control is step one. Not close, but on speed.
 
When I renewed my currency in a hershey-bar Arrow, the instructor cautioned me against letting my speed get too low on short final.
 
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Will watch the speed and get right on it. I tried faster and slower and that didn't work.
 
are you maintaining the same line of vision out the window at all times? Like not slouching etc.
 
Slow down.

Adjust your speeds for weight which for some reason makes a big difference in Pipers probably because of more pronounced ground effect. Typically you can reduce speeds by 10% when solo and partial fuel load.

The adjustment factor is (Weight/Max Gross)^1/2

Example: (2000 lbs / 2450 lbs) ^ 1/2 = (.82) ^ 1/2 = .9

Lower all speeds by multiplying by .9

If you're hesitant to slow down by 10%, do some power off stalls and pay particular attention to the airspeed indicator. I will bet the stall happens at a significantly lower speed than published.
 
Walboy said:
Slow down.

Adjust your speeds for weight which for some reason makes a big difference in Pipers probably because of more pronounced ground effect. Typically you can reduce speeds by 10% when solo and partial fuel load.

The adjustment factor is (Weight/Max Gross)^1/2

Example: (2000 lbs / 2450 lbs) ^ 1/2 = (.82) ^ 1/2 = .9

Lower all speeds by multiplying by .9

If you're hesitant to slow down by 10%, do some power off stalls and pay particular attention to the airspeed indicator. I will bet the stall happens at a significantly lower speed than published.
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Yep. Everyone forgets that book speeds are (always/usually/mostly??) at full gross, and then wonder why things don't work right.
 
how much difference is there in the stall speed between light 180 and full gross 180?
 
steingar said:
If you can't land a Cherokee you can't land. I don't think there's ever been an easier airplane to land.
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Oh I'm alive. I've flown many planes and just not sure why on this one I can't get a landing where I say that was a good one.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Start with 1.3Vso, then adjust from there.
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And calculate the actual Vso for your plane and airspeed indicator by monitoring your airspeed during a practice stall. Don't use the book number.

Do it at gross and solo/low fuel weights and put both numbers on a sticky on your glareshield.

And use the right one when you land.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
And calculate the actual Vso for your plane and airspeed indicator by monitoring your airspeed during a practice stall. Don't use the book number.

Do it at gross and solo/low fuel weights and put both numbers on a sticky on your glareshield.

And use the right one when you land.
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Yup, need to know at what speed the stall buffet/break occurs with the same load and flap setting. Helps to set a baseline for that exact aircraft and what the actual ASI reads. I bet he's probably 5kts faster than he needs to be which is making it difficult to get the aircraft to settle.
 
FlyBoyAndy said:
Oh I'm alive. I've flown many planes and just not sure why on this one I can't get a landing where I say that was a good one.
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I had a little trouble adjusting to the Cherokee wing myself. My problem is I was used to doing a round out and soft flare starting fairly high in the Mooney. Cherokee drops like a stone if you do that. It prefers you to fly it down lower and flare harder and later. Ymmv
 
I learned on a Cherokee 150 Hershey bar wing. Speeds are critical to a good landing. The wing has a habit of dropping like a rock if your not careful. Luckily the airplane has a stout gear . Flare to high when you pull the power you’ll get a rude awakening.
 
It took me a while to make my landings better in the hersey bar Archer I flew for my private because its brick-like tendancies always surprised me. If you'd like sweet, power-off landings, nail your speed on final and you'll be most of the way there. Hold off flaring a touch or two longer than you would with a more floaty plane, and don't let the nose drop on you. It will want to as the rest of your speed bleeds off!

Coming in with a bit of power, but still right on speed, was the "easy" way to get a nice, soft landing. Almost like you're doing a soft field landing, but with just a bit less power in.
 
FlyBoyAndy said:
I have experience in both high wing and low wing airplanes, and I have owned a Cherokee 180 with Hershey bar wings since 2019 and love the plane. It seems like I struggle at times with my landings in this plane like I have never had before. It could be anything from flare too soon, to a bounce landing, to not enough angle, and so on. I've tried the POH airspeeds and then my own, steeper descents, shallow descents, right on the GS.

So I'm asking, does anyone else out there have a same experience, and if so what changes did you make. We will not even discuss my last crosswind landing.
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How much do you practice?

Try some flaps 25° landings.
 
The secret is to hold it a few feet above the runway and slowly raise the flaps. Works every time. Like butter...
 
IK04 said:
The secret is to hold it a few feet above the runway and slowly raise the flaps. Works every time. Like butter...
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Where do people come up with crap like this?

How about we just learn how to land the damn airplane instead of figure out some ridiculous ‘cheat’ to make up for not being able to land the airplane?
 
I trained in part in a Cherokee 140 and it was the easiest plane in the world to set down. The mistake most make is not landing in a nose high attitude, but rather landing too fast on all three wheels at once. Fly the approach at the POH recommended speed, flare, and hold off in a nose high attitude until it runs out of lift and sits down. Pretty much like any plane. If you do it right you land on two mains and use aerodynamic braking until the nosewheel comes down. The ground effect cushion of the Cherokee is pretty impressive, not at all like a Cessna, and more prominent than in my AA-5.
 
Always fly a Hershey bar wing piper a little hot and shallow in the flair unless it’s a short field landing dragging it in with power…if I hit the numbers per the POH always seemed to bounce…or hit hard…dump the flaps while landing makes for a positive touchdown.
 
Interestingly, I was in an arrow partnership for several years. It had the Hershey bar wings, and I loved landing it. When I moved and started flying an arrow with the tapered wing, I swear it was impossible to grease it. It is probably more about getting comfortable with one vs. another than anything else. In my Hershey bar arrow, I tended to come in a little steeper with pulled power once made. Flare and hold it off until it squeaked. I think I must have had the sight picture just right cause it seemed easy to grease.
 
Of the Arrows I have rented, I have preferred the ones with tapered wings over the one with hershey bar wings.
 
C172 is easier to land.

For the Arrow with Hersey bars, I used to land with power in, but I think instructors teach that to avoid getting close to stall speed. Now I aim for 78mph and then pull back the power prior to landing point and it touches down. Not perfectly smooth always seems a bit of a tough touch as it’s a heavy plane, but nothing that I think is too much either. It is landing faster than a C172 too.
 
I like to carry it just a hint of power right in through the flare
 
I’ve had my Hershey bar Cherokee since December. Prior to that, I’ve flown mostly Cessna 150 and 172 and an Ercoupe. I don’t think the Cherokee is any harder or easier to land than a Cessna. If anything, it may be a bit more cooperative in x-wind landings than a Cessna. I go by the POH numbers (+/- a few mph), don’t adjust them for weight and use two notches of flaps in most wind conditions. I’ve had great landings and I’ve had terrible landings but the ratio doesn’t seem any different from my Cessna landings. One thing I did notice is, the Cherokee will usually settle harder than the Cessna unless you keep just a tad of power in during the flare. So, if runway is long and I have passengers on board, I usually do that. If it’s just me, or a short runway, I just accept the fact that it’s not going to be a greaser with a wheel squeak.
 
Many hours in a Hershey bar Cherokee. I aways landed full flaps, even in a stiff x-wind, because it was slow enough that once on the runway, it stayed planted. Just take the flaps out on rollout. Don't be afraid to add a touch of power to cushion touchdown if you start to feel it sink and you're little high.
 
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sometimes the hershey bar cherokees can run out of elevator at low speeds... at least the ones with the shorter stabilator.

with my 140, I needed to pay attention to carrying enough airspeed and also not being afraid to pull the yoke into my chest. (using trim to reduce control force can be helpful, but not necessary)
 
I had a Cherokee 180D for 4 years, and I never had any of these issues that are being brought up, even when doing power off 180s for more than half the landings. Get the speeds right and all of this goes away.
 
As a student pilot many years ago, I was learning in a Cherokee 140 and always found consistently good landing elusive. The FBO got a new Warrior with the tapered wings and it was night and day. My theory, thinking about it, was that the lift coefficient of the Hershey bar wing was very sensitive to angle of attack at low speeds, making the plane unusually responsive to small pitch changes. Just a theory by a non-aerospace engineer.
 
chemgeek said:
I trained in part in a Cherokee 140 and it was the easiest plane in the world to set down. The mistake most make is not landing in a nose high attitude, but rather landing too fast on all three wheels at once. Fly the approach at the POH recommended speed, flare, and hold off in a nose high attitude until it runs out of lift and sits down. Pretty much like any plane. If you do it right you land on two mains and use aerodynamic braking until the nosewheel comes down. The ground effect cushion of the Cherokee is pretty impressive, not at all like a Cessna, and more prominent than in my AA-5.
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:yeahthat:
 
Hershey bars and short winged Pipers will bite you in the nether regions every chance they get.
Fly the profile.
 
Shepherd said:
Hershey bars and short winged Pipers will bite you in the nether regions every chance they get.
Fly the profile.
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They'll bite you, and I for one can't blame them. I've never flown a more mild-mannered aircraft.
 
Honest question...what are your current approach speeds?
 
I don’t recall anything unique about “Hershey Bar” Cherokees that would require a special technique. That includes landing with power. My advice would be if you need power to “smooth out” a Cherokee landing, you need to go back and practice landing power off - you may be using power to bandaid over other issues.

Chip Sylverne said:
Don't be afraid to add a touch of power to cushion touchdown if you start to feel it sink and you're little high.
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That may work if you’re just a “little high” and add “a touch of power”. No argument there. But a lot of planes end up pranged when a pilot balloons a bit higher than usual and responds with too little power and slams onto the runway. It’s probably best in a balloon to add a LOT of power to level off and try again - runway permitting, of course. Or The Most Conservative Action, which would be to add full power and go around and try again.
 
I have about 500 hours in my Cherokee hershey bar wings.

As said above, carry just a little bit of power....doesn't take much, otherwise it drops too fast. Pull the power at the same time as the flare and let it settle. If you flared too high, add that same amount (1-200rpm) back in the stop the decent and slowly pull again.

They land a lot better with a case of water or two in the baggage compartment.

I can be 500 feet on a very short final and still land on the numbers by chopping power and then adding power back in when above the runway. They are really pretty easy to land.

When I get rusty, I go to a long runway close to me and start working on short field landings and getting stopped before the 1000 ft markers. It's amazing how much better I get in just a few laps.
 
I learned in a 172, then moved over to a PA28-180 with the Hershey bar wings. I don't recall any issues with the PA28 but we did do a LOT of power off's in the pattern and got very use to how they rounded out and flared. Since then, we purchased a Cherokee Six, PA-32-300 and it also has the Hershey Bar wings. It flies (to me anyway) a bit different than the PA28-180 did. Power off sink rates are greater for sure (rock comes to mind). I had to get use to landing it and it took me a bit longer to do so it seemed. I think it all (this will be a surprise) had to do with speeds. Once I started my instrument training and my approach speed therefore increased, it seemed to help. I land with only 2 notches/25* normally and come in over the tree line at 100mph and then just power off to my target and seems to work well. Previously I was trying the POH speeds, and variations on that as well and couldn't get consistent. Going back to the 1956 172 I learned in, the magic happened in that thing at 70mph. If you were 75mph, it could be a dance.

So the bottom line is - speeds! Find what works!

Another question, how often are you flying? That could easily cause your inconsistency too. I never fly as much as I'd like, but my max between flights (personal minimum to try and maintain some level of proficiency) is 2 weeks.
 
cowtowner said:
I can be 500 feet on a very short final and still land on the numbers by chopping power and then adding power back in when above the runway. They are really pretty easy to land.
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Was this in a PA32 or a 28? I know in our PA32, this is EXACTLY how it is. In fact, just last week my wife and I were flying into Venice Beach and I turned base/final and was very high. She said she didn't really notice... but the sight picture was very awkward and similarly to what you described, pulled the power, let it sink, put power back in prior to reaching my desired altitude (otherwise it'll get away from you) and it was a beauty.
 
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