Helicopter in Charlottesville crash had been in earlier hard landing.... And more

wsuffa

wsuffa

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Bill S.
Assuming that this news report is accurate, the helicopter had a pretty ugly history, and the report on the maintenance shop was, in a wor, damning:

http://www.richmond.com/news/local/...cle_88c9e5aa-5f89-5670-a5fb-a20b785c44a0.html

I implore and beg you NOT to turn this thread into anything related to the protests, the politics, hatred, or any of that crap. I thought the prior incident and maintenance info was interesting at best and horrifying at worst, and worthy of discussion. If this thread turns political, I would ask the MC to close it immediately.
 
Personally I have not seen the connection the new media has been making with this crash.
 
Being put back together from bits and pieces is not that uncommon for helicopters. Not much of a smoking gun to explain why it fell from the sky now.
 
Lots of aircraft are significantly damaged in accidents and fully repaired. From Cubs to 747s. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions based on an incident 7 years ago.
 
weilke said:
Being put back together from bits and pieces is not that uncommon for helicopters. Not much of a smoking gun to explain why it fell from the sky now.
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StinkBug said:
Lots of aircraft are significantly damaged in accidents and fully repaired. From Cubs to 747s. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions based on an incident 7 years ago.
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:yeahthat:
The two events are most liekly not related in the slightest except for the fact the same aircraft was involved.
 
I thought I heard it was a structural failure but that may be just speculation.

Condolences to the families.
 
As to the cause in the 2010 mishap, it sounds like this was a very specific error by an engine overhaul facility. Doesn't sound like it was a problem with either VSPs internal day to day maintenance operation or the contractor they use for heavy maintenance and overhauls.
 
FSDO called me today to make a offical statement on the accident since I saw the helicopter before the crash. Hopefully my statement will help in some fashion.
 
weilke said:
As to the cause in the 2010 mishap, it sounds like this was a very specific error by an engine overhaul facility. Doesn't sound like it was a problem with either VSPs internal day to day maintenance operation or the contractor they use for heavy maintenance and overhauls.
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And that's my point. The overhaul facility, their supplier perhaps, and the inspections thereafter. It wasn't just the VSP bird, but 19 others, too.
 
wsuffa said:
And that's my point. The overhaul facility, their supplier perhaps, and the inspections thereafter. It wasn't just the VSP bird, but 19 others, too.
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Unless I am mistaken, the 407 uses a RR250 variant. The engine looks like a trombone fought with a vacuum cleaner with lots of pipes and tubing. I don't know where this deflector plate is located, but it may well be in a spot that is not looked at outside of a hot-section inspection. Unless this 'deflector plate' is somewhere right there to see for the person re-installing the engine, I can't put much blame on anyone but the overhaul provider. The description says that it was tacked in but that the fillet weld was not completed. Not that obvious unless you know what you are looking for.
 
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250-C47B. The deflector plate is in the liner in the aft portion of the combustion chamber just down from the fuel nozzle assembly. Basically part of the liner attachment and deflects cooling air around the liner. Apparently the welds failed and the plate was ingested into the N1 and N2 sections causing engine failure.

At any rate, no way of telling if that particular engine was in the accident aircraft 7 years later or even if it was the cause this accident. No way of knowing if the structural damage that occurred 7 years ago was the cause either. Interesting to know that it had a damage history though. Hopefully there's enough evidence remaining to piece together what went wrong.
 
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EppyGA said:
Personally I have not seen the connection the new media has been making with this crash.
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I had heard the governor was driving to the area of the riots and they were flying "cover" for him.
 
weilke said:
As to the cause in the 2010 mishap, it sounds like this was a very specific error by an engine overhaul facility. Doesn't sound like it was a problem with either VSPs internal day to day maintenance operation or the contractor they use for heavy maintenance and overhauls.
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So what? It is still a great talking point for the media and the ignorant blogging masses. I mean, if they don't have some non-relevant piece of info to misinterpret and pontificate about, they might not be able to justify their inflated sense of self-importance. You shouldn’t deny them that.
 
StinkBug said:
Lots of aircraft are significantly damaged in accidents and fully repaired. From Cubs to 747s. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions based on an incident 7 years ago.
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No kidding. I remember that both of the Navy H-46s on TARAWA back in 2000 had been shot down during Vietnam, recovered, rebuilt and were still flying decades later.
 
I seriously doubt that an overhaul defect resulting in engine failure and a hard landing that was repaired by the factory had a role in a crash seven years later.
 
ARFlyer said:
FSDO called me today to make a offical statement on the accident since I saw the helicopter before the crash. Hopefully my statement will help in some fashion.
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Are you allowed to share what you witnessed here?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Brad Z said:
I seriously doubt that an overhaul defect resulting in engine failure and a hard landing that was repaired by the factory had a role in a crash seven years later.
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The overhaul issue? No. But, I suppose that it could be possible that there was structural damage that was either improperly repaired or not noticed. It wouldn't be the first time.

There's a reason the used airplane market doesn't like damage history, and people figure the age of the damage into their valuation of aircraft with damage history.
 
It wouldn't be the first 407 to lose its tail in flight. However the pedal stop is supposed to prevent that.
 
Don't think they will ever be able to determine the cause from what I saw in the picture. I would think, with the way it burned there is not much evidence left. Even if it was shot out of the sky, how could you figure it out from a pile of ashes?

What happened was very sad. The loss of hard working, dedicated officers trying to make things safer for the public. My heart goes out to the friends and family.
 
AKBill said:
Don't think they will ever be able to determine the cause from what I saw in the picture. I would think, with the way it burned there is not much evidence left. Even if it was shot out of the sky, how could you figure it out from a pile of ashes?

What happened was very sad. The loss of hard working, dedicated officers trying to make things safer for the public. My heart goes out to the friends and family.
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If the report is correct in that the "tail" was located in the trees 100 yards from the fuselage wreckage, that would definitely aid in the investigation. How much of that tail is the question. As C51 said, in 407s the tail rotor has contacted the tail boom before. Corrected with a pedal restrictor above 55 KIAS.
 
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abqtj said:
Are you allowed to share what you witnessed here?
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All I was able to offer was to help confirm that he did a tech stop around 4pm. While we were pushing back I heard him getting a taxiway takeoff clearance and looked over to make sure he was clear of us.
 
weilke said:
Is the recognition of vortex ring state really something you need to document specific training for ? That's like focusing on lack of 'stall awareness training' if someone spins in on final in a fixed wing.
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The NTSB seems to think so, or at least find it odd that the pilot didn’t have it documented. I mean I’m sure I’ve got it somewhere in my records since we cover it every year on 293 rides and demonstrate in the sim multiple times. Important, as contributing though? Nah.
 
LEO's put themselves in a condition during a low speed orbit that could induce LTE and/or VRS. Houston PD recently lost an MD Helicopter to apparent LTE and/or VRS.
 
Doc Holliday said:
LEO's put themselves in a condition during a low speed orbit that could induce LTE and/or VRS. Houston PD recently lost an MD Helicopter to apparent LTE and/or VRS.
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Based on the torque percentages in the NTSB report, I’m wondering if they did a quick stop. At 14 %, that collective is all the way down.

Pilots get used to having the aircraft respond to power demands and get complacent over time. Add some weight, some DA, some wind and she’ll bite ya in the *** in a heartbeat.
 
Fearless Tower said:
No kidding. I remember that both of the Navy H-46s on TARAWA back in 2000 had been shot down during Vietnam, recovered, rebuilt and were still flying decades later.
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I remember being told that while on a DAST with the Army On Tarawa in late 2001 early 2002 cant remember exact dates.

Half my first platoon of AH-1s were all converted G models all with Vietnam time and Prior records of battle damage...never gave it a second thought. May or may not be an issue[/QUOTE]
 
weilke said:
Is the recognition of vortex ring state really something you need to document specific training for ? That's like focusing on lack of 'stall awareness training' if someone spins in on final in a fixed wing.
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The private pilot PTS has you demonstrate settling with power. It's still written as that rather than vortex ring state.


Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to settling-with-power. 2. Selects an altitude that will allow recovery to be completed no less than 1,000 feet AGL or, if applicable, the manufacturer’s recommended altitude, whichever is higher. 3. Promptly recognizes and recovers at the onset of settling-withpower. 4. Utilizes the appropriate recovery procedure.
 
k9medic said:
The private pilot PTS has you demonstrate settling with power. It's still written as that rather than vortex ring state..
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That was my guess, did they look for "settling with power" in the logs?
 
Usually the IP would note this in a logbook but since it’s tested by a DPE at all levels for ratings it would be redundant to require it to be noted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Doc Holliday said:
LEO's put themselves in a condition during a low speed orbit that could induce LTE and/or VRS. Houston PD recently lost an MD Helicopter to apparent LTE and/or VRS.
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They ruled out a physical failure on that one already? Hadn’t seen. But the video looked like a bad ride down, for sure.

Very early speculation was they took fire and the video has some incredibly loud pops right at onset of the rotation.

The previous week’s Arizona one didn’t look too fun either, RIP.
 
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