Heavy Iron Thread.

ksandrew

Pre-takeoff checklist
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ksandrew
Not sure where to ask this so I will start here.
Watching videos of airline inflight emergencies I notice that they seem to dump fuel with no regard to it igniting. Number 3 engine on fire so we are going to dump fuel. Is the fuel dump port at the very rear where there is no chance of ignition? Jet fuel (or diesel) fuel is quite hard fire up unless under pressure, but if hot enough would burn.
Any input here.

Thanks.

Ken
 
Fuel dump nozzles are located in the outer portion of the wings. Just inboard of the ailerons on the 767. It wouldn’t be an issue.
 
What busflyer said. In 99.99% of emergencies, dumping fuel won't be a danger due to where the nozzles are. The benefits almost always outweigh the drawbacks of dumping fuel.

Almost.. I've been in a situation or two where we landed overweight instead of dumping fuel. At my joint, it comes down to the captain's decision.
 
I fly a Challenger 604. We can only dump the tail tank, so it is all the way aft. They do prohibit us from dumping if there’s lightning in the area.
 
I fly a Challenger 604. We can only dump the tail tank, so it is all the way aft. They do prohibit us from dumping if there’s lightning in the area.
I have several friends that fly the Challenger. I never ever knew it could dump fuel.
Is there some sort of part 25 build criteria that determines when it is needed? Perhaps a max structural limit for landing? (Other than the normal max lndg weight of course). Im thinking there is a specific reason it’s tail only.
 
At the dawn of civilization, or at least a long time ago, I flunked a simulator ride for NOT dumping fuel. C-141A. two engines out on the same side, couldn't feed fuel on the other side. Crossfeed worked, but I landed hot because of extra weight for unusable fuel. (No flap.):eek:

At least in that airplane, there was never an issue dumping fuel. I can't imagine any airplane with the capability having any issues.
 
I have several friends that fly the Challenger. I never ever knew it could dump fuel.
Is there some sort of part 25 build criteria that determines when it is needed? Perhaps a max structural limit for landing? (Other than the normal max lndg weight of course). Im thinking there is a specific reason it’s tail only.

The main reason is if the the transfer from the tail forward fails, you can dump it to stay within CG limits.
 
I have several friends that fly the Challenger. I never ever knew it could dump fuel.
Is there some sort of part 25 build criteria that determines when it is needed? Perhaps a max structural limit for landing? (Other than the normal max lndg weight of course)

I believe the requirement for a fuel dump comes in usually when the max takeoff weight is significantly more than the max landing weight.
 
I believe the requirement for a fuel dump comes in usually when the max takeoff weight is significantly more than the max landing weight.
It's not a landing weight issue, it's a climb issue that would require a fuel dump system.
14 CFR 25.1001 - Fuel Jettisoning System said:
§ 25.1001 Fuel jettisoning system.
(a) A fuel jettisoning system must be installed on each airplane unless it is shown that the airplane meets the climb requirements of §§ 25.119 and 25.121(d) at maximum takeoff weight, less the actual or computed weight of fuel necessary for a 15-minute flight comprised of a takeoff, go-around, and landing at the airport of departure with the airplane configuration, speed, power, and thrust the same as that used in meeting the applicable takeoff, approach, and landing climb performance requirements of this part.

(b) If a fuel jettisoning system is required it must be capable of jettisoning enough fuel within 15 minutes, starting with the weight given in paragraph (a) of this section, to enable the airplane to meet the climb requirements of §§ 25.119 and 25.121(d), assuming that the fuel is jettisoned under the conditions, except weight, found least favorable during the flight tests prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.

(c) Fuel jettisoning must be demonstrated beginning at maximum takeoff weight with flaps and landing gear up and in -

(1) A power-off glide at 1.3 VSR1;

(2) A climb at the one-engine inoperative best rate-of-climb speed, with the critical engine inoperative and the remaining engines at maximum continuous power; and

(3) Level flight at 1.3 V SR1; if the results of the tests in the conditions specified in paragraphs (c)(1) and (2) of this section show that this condition could be critical.

(d) During the flight tests prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section, it must be shown that -

(1) The fuel jettisoning system and its operation are free from fire hazard;

(2) The fuel discharges clear of any part of the airplane;

(3) Fuel or fumes do not enter any parts of the airplane; and

(4) The jettisoning operation does not adversely affect the controllability of the airplane.

(e) For reciprocating engine powered airplanes, means must be provided to prevent jettisoning the fuel in the tanks used for takeoff and landing below the level allowing 45 minutes flight at 75 percent maximum continuous power. However, if there is an auxiliary control independent of the main jettisoning control, the system may be designed to jettison the remaining fuel by means of the auxiliary jettisoning control.

(f) For turbine engine powered airplanes, means must be provided to prevent jettisoning the fuel in the tanks used for takeoff and landing below the level allowing climb from sea level to 10,000 feet and thereafter allowing 45 minutes cruise at a speed for maximum range. However, if there is an auxiliary control independent of the main jettisoning control, the system may be designed to jettison the remaining fuel by means of the auxiliary jettisoning control.

(g) The fuel jettisoning valve must be designed to allow flight personnel to close the valve during any part of the jettisoning operation.

(h) Unless it is shown that using any means (including flaps, slots, and slats) for changing the airflow across or around the wings does not adversely affect fuel jettisoning, there must be a placard, adjacent to the jettisoning control, to warn flight crewmembers against jettisoning fuel while the means that change the airflow are being used.

(i) The fuel jettisoning system must be designed so that any reasonably probable single malfunction in the system will not result in a hazardous condition due to unsymmetrical jettisoning of, or inability to jettison, fuel.
 
Is it true that fuel dumping is only allowed at low altitudes over public schools.??

Think_of_the_children.gif


Real question....What are the regulations on dumping fuel as where is it allowed, non-emergency and emergency.??
 
Is it true that fuel dumping is only allowed at low altitudes over public schools.??

Think_of_the_children.gif


Real question....What are the regulations on dumping fuel as where is it allowed, non-emergency and emergency.??
Emergency... anywhere you want, whenever you want, I suppose.

Non-emergency? I'm going somewhere somewhat uninhabited (over water, if possible) and dumping at an altitude as high as feasible. Out book says above 4,000 feet, but I'm going to try to get into the teens if I can.

Most modern planes don't really need to dump fuel. MD-11 and 747 required it. B777 and 767 have it installed, but don't require it. B737 and B757 don't have a dump system installed. So, if you're in a B777 and you pop a motor, do you need to immediately dump fuel? Can you cruise out over the water, go into holding and reduce your gross weight, stop dumping and come in and land? Or should you rush coming back on one motor, realize you're going to be heavy for landing and start dumping on downwind and continue dumping fuel over populated areas all the way to final? I know what I would pick.
 
What Sluggo said. It’s an option on the 767. Ours have it. It only dumps fuel from the center tank so if you’ve got a full load onboard and the wing tanks are full, you’ll still be over max landing. (But not as much )
 
Is it true that fuel dumping is only allowed at low altitudes over public schools.??

Think_of_the_children.gif


Real question....What are the regulations on dumping fuel as where is it allowed, non-emergency and emergency.??

ATC has some min altitude requirements if IMC. Also some sep requirements with other aircraft.
2010F5C2-21B9-4F9E-9360-D120039D2C05.jpeg
I think company / military policies far exceed the 2,000 ft rule though. I’ve worked F-18s on approach and never saw one dump at anything below 5,000 ft.
 
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Mil (Navy/Marine Corps) guidelines 6,000’ AGL.

F-18 prohibited maneuvers include AB selected while dumping fuel.
 
Mil (Navy/Marine Corps) guidelines 6,000’ AGL.

F-18 prohibited maneuvers include AB selected while dumping fuel.

Couldn’t remember if it was 5,000 or 6,000 but yeah, that makes sense.
 
At the dawn of civilization, or at least a long time ago, I flunked a simulator ride for NOT dumping fuel. C-141A. two engines out on the same side, couldn't feed fuel on the other side. Crossfeed worked, but I landed hot because of extra weight for unusable fuel. (No flap.):eek:

At least in that airplane, there was never an issue dumping fuel. I can't imagine any airplane with the capability having any issues.

You, sir, are given elevated esteem from this unwashed plebian. The C-141 is one of the great aircraft built by Lockheed, and one of my favorites.
 
If the AB is on would there be any need to dump? Aren’t they about the same? Or is the non fighter pilot perception of fuel flows with AB on way over estimated.

F18A/C models burned 1200 lbs a minute in burner down low. The problem is your going to be moving really fast in a very short time. Not generally what you want in a emergency.
 
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