He was just a jock

SkyDog58

SkyDog58

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Wow, the news media and our glorious leaders are treating muhammed ali as some sort of god or world leader. The dude made his living with his fists hitting other people and was a draft dodging pos. He does not deserve all of this worship that's going on today. It is sickening.
 
It's the culture we live in, different folks idolize different things. Sports of all types have very devoted followers and they are often willing to overlook many flaws.
 
Yeah I was never one for the saintification of dead people. Prince, MJ, Ali, all deeply flawed people probably not deserving of the worship bestowed upon them. I'll be respectful but sometimes the surge of adoration when someone like prince or Ali dies just makes me want to be like "you know prince died a drug addict and just sang a ton of trashy rock".
 
I think it's more about his impact on his decision to not go to war and how he persevered through his trials while being outspoken in a time of racial inequality.

Since you labeled him as a "jock", I'll assume you're a "geek" (No offense, because you obviously were using "jock" as positive adj).

It's no different than when a scientist or philosopher dies and we mourn them passing. If a person's life affects generations in a positive way, who are you to judge why they shouldn't be revered for having a huge impact on so many people's lives?

Personally, I don't particularly agree that singers and movie stars get paid more than teachers and cops. But I understand that their impact has a far greater (greater in terms of numbers) reach than a 3rd grade teacher or city patrolman.

He did more in his life than the combined lot of us. Disagree if you want, but let's see who mourns us when we die.... unfortunately when one of us pilots dies doing what we love, the common goal is to second guess the reason we died and act like we're the world's greatest detective and airman...... oh well.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Wow, the news media and our glorious leaders are treating muhammed ali as some sort of god or world leader. The dude made his living with his fists hitting other people and was a draft dodging pos. He does not deserve all of this worship that's going on today. It is sickening.
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I wouldn't call him a draft dodger. He requested conscientious objector status, it was denied, and he said I'm not going, arrest me. He stood up for what he believed in and paid quite a price for it.
 
Cooter143 said:
I disagree. More what? He had a unique talent, but what you value will shape your views of whether his accomplishments were significant or not.
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Oh really? If you want to feel insignificant, google your name.... and then google Mohammad Ali and see just where that gets you.....

Google every pilots name you want. You'll soon find that Ali, is at the upper echelon of humans who made an impact in this world since the beginning of time. You're in denial.

Im not arguing the fact that he was a great boxer, but he stood for more than just boxing. Example?... Floyd Mayweather Jr. He will go down as an all time great in boxing, but not an all time great in humanity. Because Floyd.... is your "jock", he doesnt stand for anything that matters. Ali did, which is why its such a big deal.

Heres a little paragraph for you from a website which i'll link at the bottom incase you wanted to actually inform yourself instead of bash someone you really have no idea about.

"He continues to help others with his disease while he is still trying to beat the disease that has taken so much from him. He supports the foundations for “AIDS, Children, Family/Parent Support, Health, Homelessness, Human Rights, Hunger, Literacy, Mental Challenges, Miscellaneous, Physical Challenges, and Poverty.” (Muhammad Ali's Charity). He has an excellent work ethic to help people of need. He is the founder of the World Organization for Right, Liberty and Dignity. He recently visited Iraq to secure hostages. To help those struggling with their situations in life Ali recently established The Muhammad Ali Center, in Louisville Kentucky. Today Ali is seen as a man who didn’t allow his freedom of speech to be taken away during a time when he needed it most. Standing up for his religious beliefs has allowed people to stand up against what they don’t agree with. He is one of many famous people who opened the doors for African Americans. Other than being known as an African American icon he is known as the best boxer of all time. He truly is a fine American."

http://muhammadali-differencemaker.blogspot.com
 
I for one don't feel insignificant at all. I am confident that my nearly 40 years in aircraft maintenance has positively impacted the world. I recall many "good finds" that had they continued in service, could have lead to very bad outcomes. There are millions of unsung heroes that contribute in ways only they, and their superiors know, probably many on this website. Google is a ****ty gauge to go by. I should post my brother's resume, people's jaws literally drop, reading it. I'm sure many others on this website would have the same affect. My jaw has never dropped over Mohamed Ali.
 
GlennAB1 said:
I for one don't feel insignificant at all. I am confident that my nearly 40 years in aircraft maintenance has positively impacted the world. I recall many "good finds" that had they continued in service, could have lead to very bad outcomes. There are millions of unsung heroes that contribute in ways only they, and their superiors know, probably many on this website. Google is a ****ty gauge to go by. I should post my brother's resume, people's jaws literally drop, reading it. I'm sure many others on this website would have the same affect. My jaw has never dropped over Mohamed Ali.
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Thats not what I am saying, you're probably a good person. GREAT.

However, you haven't impacted as many people as Ali has. My whole point is.... he's not just a jock. This isnt a personal attack as much as its a way for "geeks" to appreciate what change an athlete can make in the world. If you read some of Ali's accomplishments such as securing the release of 15 US hostages from Saddam Hussein and your jaw doesn't drop then I cannot tell you how arrogant that sounds.


The thread title is completely obnoxious.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Ok, so a Muslim was able to negotiate with a Muslim, Jaw dropped.
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Do you know the difference between a Sunni and Shiite Muslim? Probably not,but let me briefly tell you... they're two groups of Muslims that live next to one another and have been fighting each other for hundreds of years.

So yea, an American Muslim, saved Americans from their heads being cut off. No biggy, how many airplanes did you say you've fixed?..... lol
 
SmashTime said:
Oh really? If you want to feel insignificant, google your name.... and then google Mohammad Ali and see just where that gets you.....

Google every pilots name you want. You'll soon find that Ali, is at the upper echelon of humans who made an impact in this world since the beginning of time. You're in denial.

Im not arguing the fact that he was a great boxer, but he stood for more than just boxing. Example?... Floyd Mayweather Jr. He will go down as an all time great in boxing, but not an all time great in humanity. Because Floyd.... is your "jock", he doesnt stand for anything that matters. Ali did, which is why its such a big deal.

Heres a little paragraph for you from a website which i'll link at the bottom incase you wanted to actually inform yourself instead of bash someone you really have no idea about.

"He continues to help others with his disease while he is still trying to beat the disease that has taken so much from him. He supports the foundations for “AIDS, Children, Family/Parent Support, Health, Homelessness, Human Rights, Hunger, Literacy, Mental Challenges, Miscellaneous, Physical Challenges, and Poverty.” (Muhammad Ali's Charity). He has an excellent work ethic to help people of need. He is the founder of the World Organization for Right, Liberty and Dignity. He recently visited Iraq to secure hostages. To help those struggling with their situations in life Ali recently established The Muhammad Ali Center, in Louisville Kentucky. Today Ali is seen as a man who didn’t allow his freedom of speech to be taken away during a time when he needed it most. Standing up for his religious beliefs has allowed people to stand up against what they don’t agree with. He is one of many famous people who opened the doors for African Americans. Other than being known as an African American icon he is known as the best boxer of all time. He truly is a fine American."

http://muhammadali-differencemaker.blogspot.com
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You attribute insignificance to every reader here, you accuse me of bashing someone that I wasn't and of being in denial, accuse GlennAB1 of ignorance, and miss my point completely in your exasperated defense of Ali, but somehow others are arrogant. You make a lot of assumptions.

If he's as worthy as you think he is, you don't need to demean everyone else to make your point. But what you've failed to see is that you are promoting his life by pointing to things that others may not find as important as you. Not many people will rate the importance of their lives by the returns of a Google search. If they do, well that's a whole other conversation.
 
Cooter143 said:
You attribute insignificance to every reader here, you accuse me of bashing someone that I wasn't and of being in denial, accuse GlennAB1 of ignorance, and miss my point completely in your exasperated defense of Ali, but somehow others are arrogant. You make a lot of assumptions.

If he's as worthy as you think he is, you don't need to demean everyone else to make your point. But what you've failed to see is that you are promoting his life by pointing to things that others may not find as important as you. Not many people will rate the importance of their lives by the returns of a Google search. If they do, well that's a whole other conversation.
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I missed your point because you didn't have a point, easy to miss something when it's not there.

The Google reference was just an easy way to demonstrate how insignificant our impact has been compared to a jock as it was so eloquently put.

Here's a novel idea, don't comment on someone/something if you don't know enough about the topic to carry on the conversation about it.
 
Dude! SPORTS!!!!!!!

What could possibly be more important than sports? Kardashians? Donald Trump?

The front page of the Detroit Free Press today was a full page picture of Gordie Howe. Is that enough of an improvement for you?
 
SmashTime said:
I missed your point because you didn't have a point, easy to miss something when it's not there.

The Google reference was just an easy way to demonstrate how insignificant our impact has been compared to a jock as it was so eloquently put.

Here's a novel idea, don't comment on someone/something if you don't know enough about the topic to carry on the conversation about it.
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I understand enough about conversation to recognize that this is not one. ✌
 
I'm satisfied with the fact that he spent most of his life with a brain that was scrambled. He sure liked the American money, women, way of life and all of our freedoms but he had a problem standing up for them when it mattered, he is right up their with that commi scum bag Jane Fonda in my book.
 
In regards to references about me being a geek.

I consider myself to be a very well rounded individual. I was fairly athletic when I was younger and my scholastic accomplishments while above average were far from geek land. I have spent almost my entire adult life working in aircraft maintenance which is a solid blue collar profession, not a geek one. I served in the US Army and during that time I rappelled out of helicopters and began skydiving. I am a pilot with both land and seaplane ratings. I used to own a bar and had to deal with a rather boisterous crowd from time to time. None of that would I consider to be particularly geeky. But think what you want.

I will admit that I took several courses in computer technology when I was in my early 40s as I saw that it could be very beneficial so that might be called being a little geeky by some. Whatever.

Ali was just a thug who used his fists to make a living. He was a draft dodger. Claiming conscientious objector status is a dodge that people use just like deferments for school, etc. No difference.

And it is just not the big deal being made over Ali that I have an issue with. It is just the most recent and one of the most over the top. I am sickened by all of the hero worship and celebrity status that so many Americans bestow upon others because of what they do for a living. As do most of us I enjoy watching sports, going to movies, listening to music, etc. But I do not idolize any athlete, actor or musician. I may enjoy their work and I certainly have some that I prefer over others but it stops there.

Level of fame or adoration does not equate to level of positive contribution.
 
Oh, Good Lord. Google "Justin Bieber" and tell me who is more important between him and Cassius Clay... Weak minded hero worshippers who feel so strongly about public figures frequently feel very poorly about themselves. They derive their self-worth from the commonality of fellow idol worshippers. Google that.
 
Well I don't look at him as just a boxer. He did do a lot of good with his charities and other causes over the years.

However, I think his comments on racial integration were bizarre and hypocritical. Also, he used Islam to suit his needs. If it benefited him he followed it, if it didn't, then he came up with his own interpretation to not follow it.

A great champion, helped others but he did have a few character flaws...as most of us do.
 
Lachlan said:
Oh, Good Lord. Google "Justin Bieber" and tell me who is more important between him and Cassius Clay... Weak minded hero worshippers who feel so strongly about public figures frequently feel very poorly about themselves. They derive their self-worth from the commonality of fellow idol worshippers. Google that.
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Nah, you can google the little girly boy. I have no desire to do so.
 
You can also read about his failed diplomatic career on POLITICO magazine, which dwarfed his diplomatic success. Maybe that's what produced the jaw drop.
 
He had impact, but more celebrity than substance, I think. Like the Beatles, in the right place at the right time, and history carried him along. I kinda liked him personally, but didn't take too much he said beyond boxing very seriously. . .
 
FormerHangie said:
I wouldn't call him a draft dodger. He requested conscientious objector status, it was denied, and he said I'm not going, arrest me. He stood up for what he believed in and paid quite a price for it.
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That.

Takes a lot more of a man than just saying "uhh okay mista master, who do you want me to kill for you". Standing up for ones values when it comes at a high price, that's courage and honor.
 
GlennAB1 said:
The only reason you can (and Ali could) voice your opinion freely is because someone stood up and gave their life.
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Of course, if we didnt get into Vietnam, Mid East, etc there would be no freedoms in the US lol

Looks like all the millitary advertising, opening of every sports event, and so on has really worked for ya

Sorry, the freedoms we enjoy were not carved into the United States by millitary occupations in distant lands and millitary profiteering, it came about from the sacrifices of our founding fathers, standing up against LOCAL government, DEFENDING (not offending) our ways of life.
 
He was not just a Jock! He was a flawed man like all of us, but what he did (and didn't do) after his boxing career has merit. He could have ended up like most Jocks after retirement but didn't and he used his fame for the good of all not just Muslims. There was a time in my life, long ago, when I did not think much of the man. But to ignore his accomplishments and the way he conducted himself after he left the sport would be unfair. He left an impression on people around the world and my view of him today is very different. May he rest in piece!
 
Well, I'm not really into pro sports but in regards to famous people...

While I appreciate certain famous people for their work... eg actors for their movies, singers for their music, etc I try to remain willfully ignorant of their private lives as well as their politics. Couple reasons for this.. one they're just people and aren't any more special than anyone else. There's more than enough drama from friends, family, and neighbors to keep me entertained on that front... and I don't want to know about that but I have to hear it anyway.

Then when it comes to politics... why should I listen to a famous person's political opinions? They box well? They're a good actor? How does any of that equate to them knowing any more than I do? If anything their opinion is actually worth less because this individual is most likely rich and famous and therefore short of overdosing or blowing all their money on stupid crap will be fine in almost any scenario. I however could get totally screwed by small changes in the tax code or health insurance regulation.

Here's the biggest reason though... the absolute most important reason. When I'm watching my favorite move, tv show, listing to my favorite song, watching a riveting game of sportsball, or whatever I don't want to be reminding of the person's personal life. I don't want to know the person who's work I'm enjoying turned out to be a secret nazi or wife beater or that they endorse communism or heroin or whatever. None of my business, not my problem, not even something I can fix.

So, when celebrity news pops up I close the browser window, change the channel, or whatever. I actively do not want to know.
 
Our society is desperate for heroes these days. I think it is important, especially for young people, to have good examples to look up to. Sadly, many of our heroes have fallen from grace for bad behavior - especially in sports - in recent years.
(I have little knowledge of the subject of this thread, so I am not commenting on him.)
And we no longer have dignified statesmen for politicians. In addition, there has not been a surfeit of religious leaders on anyone's hero-list either.
Because of our need for heroes, and lack of suitable ones, many times I think we (or the news media) have selected seriously substandard heroes!
One painful example of this was in a Boise hotel a few years ago. A group of us were with a gent who flew and fought bravely in WWII and the Korean war, had incredible stories of being saved and saving others, no one paid him the slightest attention despite being aware of his past....then, a rapper (with a conviction for beating up a woman) came through the lobby and everyone was all agog, wanting his autograph. I was sickened.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Our society is desperate for heroes these days. I think it is important, especially for young people, to have good examples to look up to. Sadly, many of our heroes have fallen from grace for bad behavior - especially in sports - in recent years.
(I have little knowledge of the subject of this thread, so I am not commenting on him.)
And we no longer have dignified statesmen for politicians. In addition, there has not been a surfeit of religious leaders on anyone's hero-list either.
Because of our need for heroes, and lack of suitable ones, many times I think we (or the news media) have selected seriously substandard heroes!
One painful example of this was in a Boise hotel a few years ago. A group of us were with a gent who flew and fought bravely in WWII and the Korean war, had incredible stories of being saved and saving others, no one paid him the slightest attention despite being aware of his past....then, a rapper (with a conviction for beating up a woman) came through the lobby and everyone was all agog, wanting his autograph. I was sickened.
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I agree with your post. Today's heroes are in short supply. With that said, Ali has been a role model since the 60's. He's definitely not a flash in the pan and his legacy of helping people only grew with each year and will continue to live on with the charities and programs in his honor, as well as those who appreciate what he was able to do to with his life.
 
Anybody watching the ESPN documentary on OJ? Started a little over an hour ago on ABC. The rest airs on ESPN over next week. Critics give it high marks, ESPN showed it in a couple theaters to make it eligible for an Oscar.
 
Unfortunately we have a great many people who worship their teams and players to an extent that when rape charges or one of them punches out their wife they get ****ed off. Not that they are upset that they are convicted felons but because they need them on the team for the big game!
It is incredible how they blame the victims for the wrongdoing of the scumbag athlete or musician, movie douche etc.

Casieous clay was an anti American and should have been left in the gutter where they found him, but because joe Frazier was out of opponents, they brought him back up. The navy needs to use people like clay and Jane Fonda to test how deep retired Russian submarines will go until they implode.

P.S. My brother had an autographed O.J football card when we were kids, ironically it was stolen during a break in at our home while we were on vacation. Go figure.
 
I've never believed in heroes, for many of the reasons Let'sGoFlying says. They're all human, they all have feet of flesh and bone and none of them lives up to his or her reputation.

I had that lesson driven home in the last couple of years because even I had a hero of sorts, or semi-hero, in the form of an astronomer who remade his career in middle age to become one of the foremost discoverers of exoplanets (MAKG and a couple of other folks on here probably know of whom I speak). I thought, if he could do it, so could I. I suggested him as a potential colloquium speaker at my former place of employment. I followed his professional career for a few years. Then came the news: he had lost his tenured position because he was an admitted sexual harrasser. Not just in one case, which would be bad enough, but he had a pattern of pursuing women astronomers and students in a less powerful position than he. In short, he was a scumbag with either poor impulse control or an arrogant disregard for the standards of professional behavior.

Everyone is human, everyone has feet of flesh and bone and no one lives up to an inflated reputation.
 
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