Happy ADS-B Day! It's Begun

NordicDave said:
Correct anywhere in the Mode C veil requires ADS-B. There are a couple of corner cases like Golf airport on the fringe of Bravo and prior permission from ATC for a specific purpose like getting ADS-B installed.
Click to expand...
Or something with no engine driven electrical system.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
Isn't 'just below the class B shelf' still within the Mode C veil? From my understanding, the ADS-B requirement includes the whole Mode C veil...
Click to expand...
Yes. And for the record, using someone else's N number was not a serious suggestion. But, if someone actually wanted to do that for nefarious reasons, it would be trivial.
 
chemgeek said:
All the procrastination comes home to roost tomorrow, Jan 2. Some will probably be in denial about the need to comply. It will be amusing to see how many try to get popup permission to fly in rule airspace without equipage. And see what actually happens or not....
Click to expand...

YEAH! Like the pesky government aircraft here on the border ...:confused::eek:

bnt83 said:
I had this all taken care of in 2017 via GTX-345 and have really enjoyed the ADS-B (IN) since.
I feel like I get my money's worth out of it around here, here are just a few pics from 2019:
Click to expand...

Using delayed images for storm penetration?

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
So, I was wondering who might be willing to share their N number with me - that way if I accidentally nick the B, I won't get blamed, and you can point out that your airplane was in California or somewhere at the time so it wasn't you.
Click to expand...

Should've installed something with anonymous mode ...
 
I'll be in compliance by staying out of the rules airspace.

None of that newfangled geewizzery for me. Nope. Not gunna do it.
 
pigpenracing said:
In 3 months they will have a portable $39.99 unit that sits on the dash. Congrats to all the folks that spent $5,000 :D
Click to expand...

Only if you don't care about actually being legal.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
Isn't 'just below the class B shelf' still within the Mode C veil? From my understanding, the ADS-B requirement includes the whole Mode C veil...
Click to expand...
Well, some class B shelves are no longer circular while Mode C veils are still circular.
 
asicer said:
Well, some class B shelves are no longer circular while Mode C veils are still circular.
Click to expand...

Example of SFO Bravo exceeding the mode C veil. Little KRHV Reid Hillview airport in the lower right, is the only Bay Area airport accessible without ADS-B.

SFO-Bravo.png
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Yes. And for the record, using someone else's N number was not a serious suggestion. But, if someone actually wanted to do that for nefarious reasons, it would be trivial.
Click to expand...

Just don’t use the tail of John and Martha’s rented Skyhawk or some bubba sheriff will have you eating dirt with a rifle aimed at your head. LOL.
 
I wonder what these companies who sole business is ADS-B equipment are going to do now? I'm betting in a years time when ADS-B purchases screech to a halt, prices will tank drastically on a lot of units just to sell off the remaining inventory. I also wouldn't be surprised when someone develops a portable ADS-B out solution to fool the controllers.
 
Grum.Man said:
I wonder what these companies who sole business is ADS-B equipment are going to do now? I'm betting in a years time when ADS-B purchases screech to a halt, prices will tank drastically on a lot of units just to sell off the remaining inventory. I also wouldn't be surprised when someone develops a portable ADS-B out solution to fool the controllers.
Click to expand...

Thus why I’ll just wait, most of the US you don’t even need ADSB anyways
 
Grum.Man said:
I wonder what these companies who sole business is ADS-B equipment are going to do now? I'm betting in a years time when ADS-B purchases screech to a halt, prices will tank drastically on a lot of units just to sell off the remaining inventory. I also wouldn't be surprised when someone develops a portable ADS-B out solution to fool the controllers.
Click to expand...

What company depends solely on the sale of ADS-B solutions?
 
If they would have left flying over class C it wouldn't have been a bad thing.
 
James331 said:
NYC? BOS? Etc, yeah I’ll leave that all to you guys lol
Click to expand...
Or anywhere near any of those places and many more much smaller places.

I'm not a city person either, but I like to travel, and that means going near and over cities.
 
Adam Weiss said:
uAvionix.
But they saw the writing on the wall and just recently branched out to a couple other products.
Not sure they'll survive.
Click to expand...

Correct? It sounded as if you didn’t know that they had purchased Aerovonics. I hope the Aerovonics products are as good as they appear and that they can get certification soon. I’m not a fan of the beacons, but I admire how uavionix stood up to the Garmin bully. I would like them to make the Aerovonics products a hit.
 
DFH65 said:
If they would have left flying over class C it wouldn't have been a bad thing.
Click to expand...

Except for the Charlie’s in really congested areas, it shouldn’t add much to your trip to skirt them. A simple solution is get on the ADS-B bandwagon and be done with it.
 
I think Appareo could be in a spot of trouble once everyone has their transponder and some sort of "in" device. Then again, it could be some years before the market reaches that degree of saturation. But I don't think they make anything else, and I doubt anyone can stay in business long making aught but transponders.
 
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/installation/current_equipage_levels/

I will look for how many planes are US registered.

edit: whoops! I was too hasty in looking at those numbers. That last number is the total number equipped. I always have been to quick to peruse data. Stand by.

Looks like a total of slightly over 200K total aircraft registered in the US. We’re only halfway there folks.
 
Last edited:
steingar said:
I think Appareo could be in a spot of trouble once everyone has their transponder and some sort of "in" device. Then again, it could be some years before the market reaches that degree of saturation. But I don't think they make anything else, and I doubt anyone can stay in business long making aught but transponders.
Click to expand...
I did business with Appareo.
They are more diverse than avionics.
Most of their revenue is from the Agriculture space.
They might fizzle out in avionics, but they're not going anywhere.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Not true. All airplanes that are being picked up on radar are transmitted to your IN. This is called ADS-R. I see planes on IN all the time that do not have OUT. It’s easy to tell because the aircraft display has no tail number. Now, that does not mean that all airplanes will be seen as ADS-B displays, but MOST aircraft not equipped with OUT will be visible on an IN system.
Click to expand...

Whoa, you don't understand how the system works at all.

TISB is a product broadcast from a ground station provided to client aircraft that are ADS-B Out equipped and also indicate they are capable of receiving ADS-B In on one or both of the available frequencies. Mode C targets are not broadcast in an area other than that surrounding a client aircraft with ADS-B In capability (aka the hockey puck). So most airliners don't have ADS-B In and will not generate a TISB hockey puck surrounding their position. If your aircraft only has ADS-B In, you will see all ADS-B Out targets and if they generate a TISB, you will see targets centric to the ADS-B Out target but will not see anything inside your local area from a mode C target unless by happenstance they are a TISB target of a client. So you will see tons of irrelevant Mode C only TISB traffic, just not necessarily the ones that represent a collision threat to you.

ADS-R is not what you think it is and I expect it to become more and more rare. It is an ADS-B Out target that is rebroadcast on the other frequency by a ground station for the benefit of a client that claims to only support receiving TISB on a single frequency. Most receivers (portable or installed) are now dual frequency, so have no need of ADS-R and if the client is configured to inform the ground station that they are equipped with a dual frequency receiver, ground stations will not generate any ADS-R on their behalf. ADS-R is glue between the two frequencies of ADS-B because if an aircraft declares to the ground station they only have a single frequency ADS=B In capability, the other frequency ADS-B Out information is re-broadcast with the ADS-R from the ground station. The ADS-R also has a hockey puck, but its vertical dimensions (+/- 5000 ft) are larger than that for TISB (+/- 3500 ft).
 
MonkeyClaw said:
Isn't 'just below the class B shelf' still within the Mode C veil? From my understanding, the ADS-B requirement includes the whole Mode C veil...
Click to expand...

Mode C covers most of the airspace below the B, but not all. See the SF Class B and the Mode C. At KRHV, it is outside the KSFO B and KSJC C and outside the SFO mode C veil, so one may fly into or out of Reid Hillview without ADS-B Out installed. One may also fly from KRHV direct to or from KTCY as long as they remain below the B and clear of the mode C veil without entering the rule airspace.
 
Thanks for the explanation John.

The point I was trying to correct in what another poster wrote was, that just because a plane does not have OUT does not prevent that aircraft from being seen on IN. Several months ago I spent several hours circling around above my airport doing engine break in. It gave me a good bit of time staring at the traffic when not keeping the top side pointed up and looking out the window for traffic. There were many aircraft that I knew and was surprised that they had OUT. I figured out that they did not have OUT, indicated by the fact that no tail number was displayed. I thought that this was R. From your explanation I now know what R is. That said, my correction to the other poster saying that you do see traffic that has no OUT is correct.
 
brien23 said:
A large portion of Military aircraft and Airlines do not comply yet
Click to expand...
we got a company email on Dec. 31 saying all the planes in the fleet were ADSB compliant. They literally did the last ones on the last day of the year.
 
MBDiagMan said:
As I understand it, Appareo is also into non aviation products.
Click to expand...

Unless things changed, they are. And their other non-Aviation stuff has been around longer than the aviation ones.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Thanks for the explanation John.

The point I was trying to correct in what another poster wrote was, that just because a plane does not have OUT does not prevent that aircraft from being seen on IN. Several months ago I spent several hours circling around above my airport doing engine break in. It gave me a good bit of time staring at the traffic when not keeping the top side pointed up and looking out the window for traffic. There were many aircraft that I knew and was surprised that they had OUT. I figured out that they did not have OUT, indicated by the fact that no tail number was displayed. I thought that this was R. From your explanation I now know what R is. That said, my correction to the other poster saying that you do see traffic that has no OUT is correct.
Click to expand...

Without ADS-B Out, what you see is other aircraft that are equipped and their traffic. If you are also their traffic, you will see a ghost target at your own location. Many systems will eventually figure that out and suppress the ghost, but on initial detection, you will often get a target alert (Traffic less than a mile, same altitude!) which is for your own aircraft. What you don't see is YOUR traffic, that is traffic near you, but not simultaneously the traffic of a client. Some of the other aircraft traffic may also be your traffic, but if your altitude is more than 3500 feet above or below the client aircraft's traffic, the ground station will not generate a Mode C based TISB for them. Furthermore, before two days ago, the FAA considered aircraft that are equipped with ADS-B Out but an earlier version as clients, but these clients do not have a means of indicating whether or not they have ADS-B In, so as a courtesy, before the rule kicked in. ground stations would generate a TISB on the same frequency as the ADS-B Out for these earlier installations. Most of the early airline aircraft had these ADS-B Out systems if one was installed. This made for more TISB on 1090 MHz than was actually needed because these aircraft did not have any sort of ADS-B In. Now that the airlines have complied, most of these aircraft are set to indicate they do not have ADS-B In of any sort, so ground stations no longer generate a TISB for them. So my point is that what used to generate TISB, no longer does at the major airports or airports with significant air carrier service.

So if you are orbiting above an airport while you do a break in of your new engine at 3500 feet above the airport, you will be a target of most equipped aircraft flying into or out of the airport and have a descent indication of traffic below you. You will likely see their traffic up to 500 feet above you when they are departing or arriving. But if you are orbiting at 4000 feet above the airport, most of their traffic will not be your traffic anytime they are within 500 feet of the surface. So any of your traffic descending into the area are not going to show up as their traffic. This is just intended as an example that dependence on another aircraft to "in effect" light up your traffic is very problematic. The misconception is that just because you see tons of traffic, that the traffic is in fact also your traffic. It is not.
 
Shouldn't they get rid of the whole "puck" logic now that the mandate is in place? It's not like there's a carrot at the end of that stick anymore.
 
denverpilot said:
^^^ ... what a disgusting mess, design-wise. Ick.
Click to expand...

Yes , if they were to design an IPad like device, it would probably weight 5 lbs and require a 10 lbs battery on a portable rolling cart ...
It is mind boggling to me why people keep sending these people more and more their hard earned money ... it never works.
 
I visited our local class D tower on NYE before I did my ADS-B test flight. Asked them how they will see me on radar with or without ADS-B Out. Both controllers shrugged.
I inquired about any safety benefits for their line of work, they just looked at each other and said nothing. They don't go by my squawked tail number, lat/lon or anything. They assign me a squawk code to identify me.
So why did the FAA waste several of my AMU? To allow Garmin to get even richer? So far nobody's been able to explain a single ADS-B benefit to me. *shrug*
 
BigBadLou said:
I visited our local class D tower on NYE before I did my ADS-B test flight. Asked them how they will see me on radar with or without ADS-B Out. Both controllers shrugged.
I inquired about any safety benefits for their line of work, they just looked at each other and said nothing. They don't go by my squawked tail number, lat/lon or anything. They assign me a squawk code to identify me.
So why did the FAA waste several of my AMU? To allow Garmin to get even richer? So far nobody's been able to explain a single ADS-B benefit to me. *shrug*
Click to expand...
I understand what you're saying, but at the same time, I can't tell you how many times I've already been able to spot traffic via ADS-B that I wouldn't have otherwise seen.
I feel MUCH safer with this capability.
 
That capability was already available to you via TCAS though. The only difference is you chose not to get it until it was mandated by the FAA.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top