Happy ADS-B Day! It's Begun

James331 said:
And for most of America they don’t NEED ADSB even in 2020.

Personally I’ll probably get some ADSB stuff in a year or so when the rush marketing wears off and there are hopefully some better products on the market.
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Thinking the same thing only I would need to get one of those fancy shmancy transpondery things first.
 
James331 said:
And for most of America they don’t NEED ADSB even in 2020.
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What do you mean by “don’t need?” There might not be places where it is required, but it sure is handy to have anywhere you fly, both my planes have had both out and in for awhile. The Cessna almost a year and the Mooney almost two years and I’m not interested in flying without it, even though I don’t enter Bravo or Charlie very much. It takes a while to get used to. At first I found myself almost fixating on a nearby aircraft out of curiosity, but once used to it I have been able to know right away if it’s something to pay attention to. My wife has a real good handle on when to point out and watch for aircraft.

There are many things not required by law that can be useful or even necessary.
 
denverpilot said:
It’ll get everyone believing all aircraft are transmitting and lulled into safety sleep, and then a big crash where one isn’t.

For bonus points one can be transmitting an incorrect location. Or someone can spoof multiple targets from a ground or air transmitter. Or...

The design is full of massive flaws. Not the least of which being that it’s really two systems that require FAA equipment to be working for one group of aircraft to see the others.

Design in single points of failure much? LOL. :)

Engineering wise, it’s pretty much a cluster... of 90s vintage tech. It’s kinda like someone handing you an iPhone 4 today. “Well it’s better than nothing I guess. It can make ... a call.” Haha.
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Yeah, it’s not perfect and not the very latest technology! But a project like this takes lots of time, especially with the gubment involved. The problem is that in a long period project you can never end up with the latest technology because if you are changing the scope of the technology to use the latest and greatest, you’ll spend all your time engineering and never complete the project.

When I was studying electronics in the early seventies I worked nights at what we called a burn in house, where we burned in and tested new electronic components. We had much ongoing work for Jet Propulsion Labs for the Voyager project. The components were several year old technology which was a contrast to most everything else that was latest and greatest. They had to be doing this because they if they kept changing their designs for the latest technology, they would have never gotten off the ground. They had to drive a stake in the ground and lock designs or never finish.

The same concept applies here. There are still added functionalities coming to ADS-B. We have seen new ones just in the last year in the form of more weather tools and they have said that more are coming. This is a very long term slow moving project that if people will use instead of just griping about it, I think they will find it useful. I sure have. I don’t want to even sight see over the lake near the airport without it and certainly don’t want to fly long distances without it.
 
Lachlan said:
So the Y2K panic can be reassessed now, and it should be directed at 2001? What an oddity.
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I was right in the middle of the Y2K fiasco, but I didn’t invent the term, honest. The term came from the year number not the millennia number. The year was 2000. Does that not come out as 2K for you? What is odd about that?

For all the people commenting about this that think they are so smart, the year 2,000 was the first year with something other than a one in the most significant digit of the year. The fear was that code would be disrupted when the year could not be resolved. IMHO as someone smack in the middle of the real-time software world at the time I never thought we were in any danger at the time. Lots of necessary work was done, but even more unnecessary work was done for the purpose of covering their butts for threats of libel. Most all software companies had record business in late 1999 selling upgrades and services for this purpose. Then in 2000 their sales dried up badly because most every companies IT budget had been depleted to cover their butts from this hooey.

The software company I was involved with at the time had 20% of the bookings in Jan 2000 that they had seen in December 1999.
 
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denverpilot said:
And how do you know when the Mode C pass through from the radar site is working...? Or the UAT to 1080?

There’s no NOTAM system for any of it. Let alone a missed packet being blocked by your fuselage.

Better look outside. :)
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I have never heard ANYONE claim or say that they no longer need to watch for traffic. IN is just another tool and I believe that everyone is approaching it that way. The hate for it from the naysayers I find quite puzzling.
 
James331 said:
And for most of America they don’t NEED ADSB even in 2020.

Personally I’ll probably get some ADSB stuff in a year or so when the rush marketing wears off and there are hopefully some better products on the market.
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aftCG said:
Uh. You realize "in" only sees aircraft with "out", don't you?
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Not true. All airplanes that are being picked up on radar are transmitted to your IN. This is called ADS-R. I see planes on IN all the time that do not have OUT. It’s easy to tell because the aircraft display has no tail number. Now, that does not mean that all airplanes will be seen as ADS-B displays, but MOST aircraft not equipped with OUT will be visible on an IN system.
 
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denverpilot said:
Doesn’t cover the rest of the “back end” required for this tech abortion to operate correctly though.

I’d trust the NOTAMs on a system FAA has clearly stated over and over is NOT primary about as far as I could throw it.

It’s engineered to be what we would call “best effort” and not “fail safe” in the systems world.

The over the air interface is what we call “spray and pray”.

Repudiation and identification of users is clear down at “I sure hope someone entered it correctly at install”, which is incredibly bad engineering.

All with 1990s levels of tech. LOL. In terms of modern RF data systems, it’s basically a joke.

SMS has more data loss prevention than anything yet deployed in “NexGen”. And that isn’t saying much.
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Man! Where does all this anger come from? There is outdated technology still in use all around us that is still useful and will eventually be improved. This is the real world where not much of anything is perfect. Give it a rest.

The whole system is an improvement. Since it is being driven by the government, we are lucky to get anything at all.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Man! Where does all this anger come from? There is outdated technology still in use all around us that is still useful and will eventually be improved. This is the real world where not much of anything is perfect. Give it a rest.

The whole system is an improvement. Since it is being driven by the government, we are lucky to get anything at all.
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Not angry. Just wasting billions of dollars for very very little gain. Makework.

It’s tech garbage from the AOL era. That’s pretty much irrefutable.

It failed the FedEx lower separation test which was a major feature touted for the price tag, it can’t be used to replace radar, another feature touted for the price tag, and it has zero security or data retransmission so it’ll “maybe” work but if it doesn’t — they’ll just say “oh well”...

It’s not so much anger as laughing my ass off at it. Anyone doing RF data systems had real solutions for most of this thing’s technical shortcomings clear back when it was being designed, and now that it’s implemented almost three decades later, it’s a nice kiddy toy attempt at a real RF data system.

Aviation is strangely loving of it because aviation was stuck using 40’s and 50’s tech.

“Oooh look I got flakey non-guaranteed traffic from a “puck”, weather maps the resolution of the modem days, and teletype abbreviated weather! None of which even displays when I’m out of range or even an error when it knows it’s missing update packets!”

LOL. It looks great compared to what we had, but compared to real data networks over RF in 2020, it’s laughable junk. :)

What year was XM weather first available? :)
 
MBDiagMan said:
Yeah, it’s not perfect and not the very latest technology! But a project like this takes lots of time, especially with the gubment involved.
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I’ll just stop you right there having both worked on government projects that stayed WAY ahead of the tech curve and also just looking inside an average cop car paid for by far less money from municipal taxes. LOL.

I believe you meant to say “FAA” instead of “government”. All sorts of government is decades ahead of this particular agency on far far fewer dollars.

Whether because they need a chainsaw to cut themselves out of their own red tape, or that they’ve just believed their stuff is cutting edge from their own marketing materials for decades, hell if I know.

The goals for aircraft tracking in ADS-B could’ve been done for a fraction of the cost and zero aircraft upgrades with wide-area multilateralization. They even already have had it deployed in the Aspen valley for over a decade. Tiny fraction of the price of ADS-B. As one example.

All sorts of ways to provide the services that ADS-B provides and all designed better.

I suspect it’s more of a “not invented here” syndrome they suffer from more than anything. It’s cool. They just suck at tech. At least compared with nearly any other agency who has a need for modern stuff.

Shipping high speed data up and down to flying things, whether in or out of the atmosphere... isn’t exactly something other agencies have much trouble with.

They’re just the slow kid on the block.

Like you said, they’ve got expectations set so low we should feel “lucky to get anything”. LOL.

I would so love to say that to all of my customers. Haha.
 
denverpilot said:
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I believe you meant to say “FAA” instead of “government”. All sorts of government is decades ahead of this particular agency on far far fewer dollars.
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Have you seen their drone identification proposal? What a joke and it will go through because like everything else they will ignore the public and listen to their corporate overlords. Creating problems where they don't exist unless someone with money wants what the public has whether it be radio spectrum or airspace. But I digress.
 
I had this all taken care of in 2017 via GTX-345 and have really enjoyed the ADS-B (IN) since.

I feel like I get my money's worth out of it around here, here are just a few pics from 2019:
 

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Which reminds me. I do 90% of my flying just below the class B shelves - even when I am going somewhere, it involves sliding about 1/3 to 2/3 of the way around the bravo to go west or north (can't go east. Not now way, not no how). So, I was wondering who might be willing to share their N number with me - that way if I accidentally nick the B, I won't get blamed, and you can point out that your airplane was in California or somewhere at the time so it wasn't you.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Which reminds me. I do 90% of my flying just below the class B shelves - even when I am going somewhere, it involves sliding about 1/3 to 2/3 of the way around the bravo to go west or north (can't go east. Not now way, not no how). So, I was wondering who might be willing to share their N number with me - that way if I accidentally nick the B, I won't get blamed, and you can point out that your airplane was in California or somewhere at the time so it wasn't you.
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Sure, you can use mine. The one ending in 6PC.
 
The Venture got it a few years back just because my old transponder failed. The 150 does not and will not. What they can't see want hurt them ;-)
 
aftCG said:
Uh. You realize "in" only sees aircraft with "out", don't you?
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FAA seems to imply otherwise.
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DFH65 said:
Have you seen their drone identification proposal? What a joke and it will go through because like everything else they will ignore the public and listen to their corporate overlords. Creating problems where they don't exist unless someone with money wants what the public has whether it be radio spectrum or airspace. But I digress.
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I scrolled past some article this morning about the Colorado legislature (good lord... they don’t even know their own jurisdiction) already flipping out about identifying the drones in the eastern CO mystery “flock” and proposing laws to identify them. LOL.

One comment said it’s a power company inspecting lines. No attribution or link on that comment of course.

Like I said, I kept scrolling... :)
 
James331 said:
And for most of America they don’t NEED ADSB even in 2020.

Personally I’ll probably get some ADSB stuff in a year or so when the rush marketing wears off and there are hopefully some better products on the market.
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Exactly my thinking too.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Which reminds me. I do 90% of my flying just below the class B shelves - even when I am going somewhere, it involves sliding about 1/3 to 2/3 of the way around the bravo to go west or north (can't go east. Not now way, not no how). So, I was wondering who might be willing to share their N number with me - that way if I accidentally nick the B, I won't get blamed, and you can point out that your airplane was in California or somewhere at the time so it wasn't you.
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Sorry. Not interested in doing things deceptive or dishonest. If I foul up I will accept the consequences for my own personal actions and would not dream of using someone else’s number.
 
Chuckled at the postings on a controller group already today asking what happens if you wander into ADS-B airspace without it today.

All of them answered that they’re not required to even display where the data on their screens came from and they’ll work you like any other traffic.

Because that’s what they do, God bless em.

“I’m not the ADS-B police. I don’t care.”

Of course there’s probably some weenie in a cubical somewhere looking at post flight data who’ll send a love letter or something eventually. Yay databases. Maybe only if someone tattles on you or you bring attention to yourself by bad piloting... who knows.

The naughty pilots probably have a while before the software instantly snitches on them and triggers “requirements” of the controllers to act in real time. Timing affects the outcome of the rain dance.
 
There are certainly some airports under the Mode C veil I will miss going to but oh well. There are also several times I have gone over the top of Charlie airspace that I will now have to go around. Seeing as how I am just time building it doesn't much matter to me.
 
If I’m VFR I’ll see and avoid, that’s been working just fine since the brothers made that first flight, any idea how unlikely a mid air even is?
 
James331 said:
If I’m VFR I’ll see and avoid, that’s been working just fine since the brothers made that first flight, any idea how unlikely a mid air even is?
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I was thinking about this the other day when they were talking about the new drone ID rules they say there are like 1.5 million drones in the US. Let's say they are a square foot in size that is 1.5 million square feet of airspace taken up if every drone in the US is in the air a the same time. To put it in perspective Boeing has a single building that is 4.3 million square feet. I think the pentagon is 6.5 million square feet.
 
Well, I took a short jaunt today, and despite ADS-B, the sky did not fall in. But the winds aloft were 35-40 out of the west, resulting in some impressive crab angles. I won't blame ADS-B for that. :D
 
I had our 182 done a couple years ago after a mid-air nearby. My son flies it and I want him to have everything to keep him as safe and informed as possible. Now, my 425 is a different story, I already had active traffic and thought I would sell it before now. Long story, short, I dropped it off on Saturday! Cost an extra $600 from the quote I got last spring, but supply and demand! He worked me in the next slot was February!
 
DFH65 said:
I was thinking about this the other day when they were talking about the new drone ID rules they say there are like 1.5 million drones in the US. Let's say they are a square foot in size that is 1.5 million square feet of airspace taken up if every drone in the US is in the air a the same time. To put it in perspective Boeing has a single building that is 4.3 million square feet. I think the pentagon is 6.5 million square feet.
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It might be better to think in three dimensions ...
 
DFH65 said:
I was thinking about this the other day when they were talking about the new drone ID rules they say there are like 1.5 million drones in the US. Let's say they are a square foot in size that is 1.5 million square feet of airspace taken up if every drone in the US is in the air a the same time. To put it in perspective Boeing has a single building that is 4.3 million square feet. I think the pentagon is 6.5 million square feet.
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And most of that drone square footage is occupied by butterflies and grasshoppers, and an occasional Cub. But there are billions and billions of cubic feet that aren't being utilized at all by drones.
 
Still waiting to install the GNX 375 plus dual G5s. We were scheduled for install in November but got pushed. They are supposed to get us in this month. I guess the ADSB stuff will be nice. But I am really more looking forward to the IFR GPS capabilities.
 
DFH65 said:
I was thinking about this the other day when they were talking about the new drone ID rules they say there are like 1.5 million drones in the US. Let's say they are a square foot in size that is 1.5 million square feet of airspace taken up if every drone in the US is in the air a the same time. To put it in perspective Boeing has a single building that is 4.3 million square feet. I think the pentagon is 6.5 million square feet.
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Also Boeing JUST THIS LAST YEAR killed more people than drones or RC airplanes have in history.
 
In 3 months they will have a portable $39.99 unit that sits on the dash. Congrats to all the folks that spent $5,000 :D
 
Kenny Phillips said:
It might be better to think in three dimensions ...
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Would they all fit in one building with A LOT of room to spare? You get my point. I never lost a moments sleep worrying about hitting a drone. Not saying it can't happen but...

To bring it back on topic the proposal is to not put them in the ADS-B system which I suppose is good.
 
pigpenracing said:
In 3 months they will have a portable $39.99 unit that sits on the dash. Congrats to all the folks that spent $5,000 :D
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Yeah but will I still need a transponder? Cuz my '57 Cessner or the Champ I fly ain't got none.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Which reminds me. I do 90% of my flying just below the class B shelves - even when I am going somewhere, it involves sliding about 1/3 to 2/3 of the way around the bravo to go west or north (can't go east. Not now way, not no how). So, I was wondering who might be willing to share their N number with me - that way if I accidentally nick the B, I won't get blamed, and you can point out that your airplane was in California or somewhere at the time so it wasn't you.
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Isn't 'just below the class B shelf' still within the Mode C veil? From my understanding, the ADS-B requirement includes the whole Mode C veil...
 
MonkeyClaw said:
Isn't 'just below the class B shelf' still within the Mode C veil? From my understanding, the ADS-B requirement includes the whole Mode C veil...
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Correct anywhere in the Mode C veil requires ADS-B. There are a couple of corner cases like Golf airport on the fringe of Bravo and prior permission from ATC for a specific purpose like getting ADS-B installed.
 
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