Hangar Rash… insurance or just fix it?

[dans2992]

So, my partner was moving our plane this weekend, and…. There was an incident with the hangar door vs the leading edge (Comanche) We are getting opinions on how to fix, but one opinion is use some “dent pulling” techniques, heat, etc to fix. another opinion was “just call the insurance company and let them deal with it” (another co-owner was the person moving the plane, so it would be our insurance).

(Whatever is done, it would of course be signed off by an A&P, etc)

I’m wondering if insurance would want to re-skin half the wing. The dent is not on a rib.

If we made an insurance claim, would our rates likely go up?

Here is a pic for reference. :/

 

[donjohnston]

Until you know how much the repair is going to cost, what your deductible is, and what your financial situation is, it's hard to say.

These days, I wouldn't get the insurance company involved unless the out of pocket expense warranted it. For example; $5,000 repair and $4,000 deductible, I wouldn't get insurance involved. $20,000 repair and $1,000 deductible, I would make the phone call.

 

[Magman]

Please do not focus on the APPARENT repair.

The damaged area is some distance from the Wing Aiiach Points and thus has considerable leverage. Interior side panels should be removed to facilitate a
thorough investigation.

Tip Strikes can result in damage far from the impact point. One Archer had only
slight damage to the plastic tip but the forward attach point was completely torn out. Yes; it did fly that way.

Reposting on the Commanche Forum or having a tribal guru conduct the inspection could be in your best interests.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Even a not-in motion claim on your insurance will be catastrophic for years. I would really only consider insurance for significant damage or total loss. In this case Insurance will get their money back next year when your rate doubles, or more.

Just get it fixed yourself, and yeah a professional automotive dent puller is probably a good person to go to, as long as they understand the skin is aluminum.

 

[Pinecone]

I agree to check with Comanche people. And talk to your A&P/IA

I would NOT get auto dent pullers involved until you have talked to A&P/IA about signing off the work.

 

[kyleb]

I agree to check with Comanche people. And talk to your A&P/IA

I would NOT get auto dent pullers involved until you have talked to A&P/IA about signing off the work.

Yeah, the "D" section that makes the leading edge is structural. You want it properly repaired.

 

[Clip4]

Make the claim. Your insurance won’t increase.

 

[dans2992]

Make the claim. Your insurance won’t increase.

What are you basing that on?

 

[Stewartb]

Check with an automotive hail repair guy. Pull the dent without harming paint. Let your IA watch.

 

[Hang 4]

Check with an automotive hail repair guy. Pull the dent without harming paint. Let your IA watch.

car bodies are steel for the most part. That leading edge is creased and aluminum. No way a dent guy is going to fix it safely.

 

[dans2992]

Check with an automotive hail repair guy. Pull the dent without harming paint. Let your IA watch.

This is one suggestion I am getting. The previous poster seems to disagree though.

 

[dans2992]

car bodies are steel for the most part. That leading edge is creased and aluminum. No way a dent guy is going to fix it safely.

What is the safety concern? Honest question, just trying to figure this out.

 

[TCABM]

I’m not a sheet metal guy and don’t know about the Comanche wing, but is the gap/overlap where the two skins march normal?

Seems like there was enough force to leave a significant mark…I’d at least get an educated decision on what my next step would be.

 

[dans2992]

A&P says “it’s flyable, but not pretty”

His strategy is “cut an access panel on the underside of the wing and use that to push back in place”

Service manual does acknowledge this as an acceptable strategy.

What are thoughts on trying dent pulling first?

 

[schmookeeg]

So, what is the partnership "who pays" dynamic here -- assuming you file a claim, does the damaging partner get placed on the hook for the insurance increase? I could see it argued either way.

 

[jsstevens]

A&P says “it’s flyable, but not pretty”

His strategy is “cut an access panel on the underside of the wing and use that to push back in place”

Service manual does acknowledge this as an acceptable strategy.

What are thoughts on trying dent pulling first?

Most importantly what does your A&P say about signing off on a dent pull?

 

[Bell206]

What are thoughts on trying dent pulling first?

2024 aluminum doesn't "pull" well in the conventional sense. Stick with Plan A. Have done similar on Cessna wings but you have some sharp creases that will not pop back regardless what you do. Good luck.

 

[PaulS]

Damn, partner should pay for it. I wouldn't use insurance for this unless it's catastrophic. I would be a little peeved at someone if this happened to something I owned. Move airplanes as fast as you want to run into something, that's really slow. If there is something close to hit, have spotters, or move slowly, stopping to check clearance. This stuff just shouldn't happen.

 

[frfly172]

Before going to insurance company ,what is plane insured for? What is deductible? Once they get involved they may decide on the fix that’s acceptable.

 

[kyleb]

A&P says “it’s flyable, but not pretty”

His strategy is “cut an access panel on the underside of the wing and use that to push back in place”

Service manual does acknowledge this as an acceptable strategy.

What are thoughts on trying dent pulling first?

Auto dent repair guys often pull interior panels and the like to get backside access to push out a dent. Dent pullers sometimes use a suction cup and sometimes drill holes and/or weld tabs to a panel to pull on it. So if you want to try the auto guy, make sure he plans to use a process that you can live with. Obviously, welding is out...

 

[Omalley1537]

From my limited sheet metal work experience, there’s no way that’s pulling out with the “dent pull” method, at least to any acceptable degree for the wing of an airplane. It’s creased, likely stretched, and in a critical area (leading edge). Pulling dents to restore original contour works far better in an open, broad dent (think door panel of a car)than a sharp crease like you have. Further, dent pullers leave a hole, unless you are using a stud gun style, and I don’t believe they offer one that welds studs to aluminum (maybe I’m wrong given the increased use of aluminum in auto/truck bodies).

 

[Hang 4]

What is the safety concern? Honest question, just trying to figure this out.

A crease in aluminum like that is going to either crack or be significantly weakened if it gets pulled. Note the very top and bottom of the vertical dent. Hail damage tends to be a smooth depression vs a crease and steel is much more ductile than aluminum. Pounding it out from the back might be ok, but not if it’s structural. Listen to @Bell206, he knows his stuff.

 

[Stewartb]

Aluminum s

This is one suggestion I am getting. The previous poster seems to disagree though.

Aluminum stretches when it dents so I’d expect repairs are a little different, but given Ford uses so much aluminum for bodies these days I’d bet the hail repair guys know how to deal with it.

 

[Stewartb]

I’ve fixed lots of creases in aluminum boats. No problem that wasn’t easily overcome. For that wing damage I’d start with the easy/least invasive option and see what you come up with.

 

[kyleb]

Aluminum stretches when it dents so I’d expect repairs are a little different, but given Ford uses so much aluminum for bodies these days I’d bet the hail repair guys know how to deal with it.

Hail repair guys are not fixing structure. They are making non-structural stuff look good. The D cell on a wing leading edge is structural until someone proves it isn't. I might expect auto repair guys to do OK with a few hail dents, but not this. As others have mentioned, aluminum likes to crack in creases, particularly when those areas are un-creased.

 

[hindsight2020]

I fear that's a reskin/replace of that panel playa'. Count yourself lucky it didn't affect a rib. I've gone through that, much worse damage, but it wasn't leading edge damage, but top skin damage and aft-spar damage. A lot more labor than that. Thing is, that clean flush-rivet comanche wing is gonna be interesting/spendy to meddle with than my low-brow cherokee wing.

With labor these days that'll run a good multi-AMU penny on labor. From my experience once they give insurance the green light, shops love to run up the labor bill. I was astounded as to how much mine ran up the bill to the insurance. But they paid. I was fine with it, as it was not my insurance. I would ask for a quote first for a proper and comprehensive repair, then based on that figure decide if it's worth calling the insurance.

ETA: Totally forgot, that doesn't include paint. Mine didn't because my rig was already half-bare and I'm an unworthy excommunicate from the pRide iN oWneRsHip country club. At any rate, me thinks this might be already in insurance claim land if you want painted. Sorry to hear of it. Hangar rash sooooks.

 

[Bell206]

Ford uses so much aluminum

creases in aluminum boats

FYI: Different type aluminum in these cases. Usually 5000 or 6000 series in boats and Ford uses 6000 series aluminum in trucks. Much different than the 2000 series (2024) used in aircraft. 5 and 6 can be welded, reworked much harder, and even use the same processes used on steel panels. Trying those same process on .025/.032" 2024-T3 sheet will ruin your day and the metal.

I think the OPs mechanic is on the right path by cutting the access hole and knocking the dent out then looking at things. Even if there's a crack there are several options for repair that wouldn't require any major disassembly.

 

[Hang 4]

I’ve fixed lots of creases in aluminum boats. No problem that wasn’t easily overcome. For that wing damage I’d start with the easy/least invasive option and see what you come up with.

Now we go down the alloy path. Your boat is likely made from a fairly soft alloy. Designed to be hauled over rocks etc. Aircraft alloys tend to be stronger, but also more brittle. For example, 7075, which is used in modern hang glider downtubes, will be pretty much useless once it dents. Try to straighten the tube and it will break in your hand. The older ones were 6065 which is softer and they could be fixed once or twice.

 

[kyleb]

I think the OPs mechanic is on the right path by cutting the access hole and knocking the dent out then looking at things. Even if there's a crack there are several options for repair that wouldn't require any major disassembly.

Flush patch with a doubler?

 

[Magman]

The wing has lost some structural integrity. Any repair should restore the airfoil AND the strength.

My guess is the skin is too thin to countersink and dimpling may be difficult. There might be an access hole for the switch that may help though.

Still another option may be to contact a DER. (Designated Engineering Rep )
I’ve been surprised that some are rather rea$onable.

Aircraft Structural Epoxies have been around for quite a while. The DER may be able to develop a plan to utilize the technology. I had occasion to do this for a repair to the Doorpost area of a 172. Worked out well. The Cessna Plan also used epoxy but took forever to receive.

btw- Is WEBCO still around?

 

[Daleandee]

Have Bondo ... will travel!

 

[Bell206]

My guess is the skin is too thin to countersink and dimpling may be difficult. There might be an access hole for the switch that may help though.

Definitely too thin to countersink but dimpling is not a problem, at least on Cessna leading edges. Both Piper and Cessna allow the addition of access holes to wings areas so access should not be an issue. Cessna does offer more guidance than Piper to include repair schemes for just this type of damage which could also be used as acceptable data for Pipers. You also have the option of an external repair or a flush repair as mentioned if aesthetics are important. Its a pretty straight forward process in most cases.

 

[dans2992]

Definitely too thin to countersink but dimpling is not a problem, at least on Cessna leading edges. Both Piper and Cessna allow the addition of access holes to wings areas so access should not be an issue. Cessna does offer more guidance than Piper to include repair schemes for just this type of damage which could also be used as acceptable data for Pipers. You also have the option of an external repair or a flush repair as mentioned if aesthetics are important. Its a pretty straight forward process in most cases.

yep. Currently the thinking is cutting a new access panel on the underside, pushing it out.

 

[Pugs]

Even a not-in motion claim on your insurance will be catastrophic for years. I would really only consider insurance for significant damage or total loss. In this case Insurance will get their money back next year when your rate doubles, or more.

Maybe go up. I was "involved" as a club investigator the last three years in 3 mishaps on this scale and in none of the cases was our insurance premium affected.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Wouldn’t it be better to replace the entire sheet metal?
I’d guess a $2000 job?

 

[Bell206]

Wouldn’t it be better to replace the entire sheet metal?

It would depend on how you define "better." But from the replacement side it would require an exponential increase in cost and labor. And based on what I've seen pictured and my limited Piper sheetmetal experience it would cost well north of $2000 provided you could even procure a replacement panel.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

It would depend on how you define "better." But from the replacement side it would require an exponential increase in cost and labor. And based on what I've seen pictured and my limited Piper sheetmetal experience it would cost well north of $2000 provided you could even procure a replacement panel.

Similar work I had done took 19 hours, so I think it’s worth asking for an estimate.

 

[bluerooster]

2024-T3 doesn't like to be straightened. Especially when creased as shown in the pics. Not saying it can't be safely done, But do not apply heat enough to allow the metal to move. Unless you are equipped to re-heat treat that area. The only proper repair that I can think of is to replace the affected panel, by either replacing the whole panel, or cutting out the affected area, and installing a flush patch IAW AC43.13, or piper mx manual.
You may want to get some numbers to find out the cost, and what your deductible is.

Personally, I don't like deductibles, and don't have one on any policy save one, and then it's only $1000 on my house.

 

[Racerx]

You might be able to dolly the sharp crease out and make it look better if you get it from the inside. But aluminum stretches and then it tends to oil can.

I get a lot of pontoons in the shop with dock damage and large inward dents. Owners are never happy when I tell them there's no pulling it out.

I'm trying to visualize how that crease could have happened with a hangar door. It's not computing.

 

[kyleb]

I'm trying to visualize how that crease could have happened with a hangar door. It's not computing.

You're towing the aircraft out of the hangar and don't notice that one door isn't fully open. Alternately, you are repositioning the aircraft in the hangar (with one door open and one door partially open) and don't stop the airplane in time. Or...