Handoff from Center to Tower

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olblugill

Guest
I fly IFR in my work a lot. Yesterday cleared for the visual. Center did not hand me off to the tower. I am patient and know they get busy. However when my GPS said I was about a half mile from busting Class D airspace at 150 knots I call center and advise that I am contacting Tower. I had been monitoring tower and there was a lot of traffic in the area. (actually trying to help the controller out) Center immediately very rudely says: "No you will not you will contact tower when I tell you!" He waits one second then tells me to contact tower. By then I am into busy class D airspace. Tower clears me to land since I am at a pretty close base by then. Another plane advises tower they see me and execute a 360. My observations:
I could have contacted center earlier but I hate to because they like to do thier job. I could have cancelled IFR, but I have the right to complete my flight, no other IFR traffic in the area. I had just popped out of the clouds and had a passenger. I could have asked "permission" to contact tower, controller would have been less defensive. However the delay could have impaired my and other traffics safety even more. As it was one plane did a 360. I called the supervisor of Seattle Center and explained the situtation. He was pretty supportive and apologized and said he would listen to the tape and talk to the controller. He said that if Center causes me to bust airspace it is their responsibilty. I told him that was fine but it doesn't help me if I am dead. I am not sure I would not do the same thing again. Next time I will call a little bit earlier and ask request permission to contact tower then again they usually call me so I hate to sound like a nervous nelly. I am a miffed at the arrogant treatment and kind of want to vent a little. It was uncalled for and spoils my generally good impression formed over many years. By the way Center never bothered to call the tower about my visual approach in the first place per the tower. Comments?
 
check out aviationmentor.blogspot.com John had a little bit of DYI ATC lately too...
 
Sounds like "It's all good." Other than the controller not getting l..;) ed last night,of course!
 
I think the controller lost track of you. A "we have the field in sight" or "request frequency change" might have reminded him that you were there. Either way, since you were IFR, the controller is required to let tower know that you were inbound and coordinate a handoff.

This guy dropped the ball (IMNSHO).
 
Anymouse said:
I think the controller lost track of you. A "we have the field in sight" or "request frequency change" might have reminded him that you were there. Either way, since you were IFR, the controller is required to let tower know that you were inbound and coordinate a handoff.

This guy dropped the ball (IMNSHO).
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Also should add to this as since you were under IUFR with a clearance and talking to ATC you would not have violated the airspace. It was centers job, as was said, to coordinate the hand off. Since it sounds as if there was enough visibility to perhaps see the airport, separation is still you concern and responsibility as well. Also as an FYI I have gotten the hand off pretty late in the whole process and with 2 miles of the landing. On at least one ILS I got the hand off to tower as I passed the outer marker. So it is not uncommon to get into the class D and not be talking to tower.
 
The controller was most likely PO'ed at himself and took it out on you. My experience over 40 years of working with Seattle Center and TRACON is that they are the best in the system. Let the quality control folks take it from here. The .65 puts the handoff responsibility on the controller, not on you.

Bob Gardner
 
If you're IFR, and the controller hasn't switched you, you cannot "bust airspace" -- you are complying with the regulations since you're talking to ATC and flying your cleared route. If you surprise the tower controller, that's the Center controller's problem, not yours. Obviously you don't want to hit anyone else, so you keep your scan going and maneuver as necessary to "see and avoid" (that's always your responsibility in VMC, even under IFR, no matter whose airspace you're in) and you don't actually land without a landing clearance, but you don't anticipate the switch. If there's a problem, it is likely that the tower controller will call the Center supe to complain if s/he doesn't like the in-close handoff. But to switch without being directed while IFR is a definite no-no -- if you can't stand it, ask, but don't switch without instruction as you don't know what the deal is between Tower and Center and if you switch without direction, you may miss a critical instruction.
 
smigaldi said:
Also should add to this as since you were under IUFR with a clearance and talking to ATC you would not have violated the airspace. It was centers job, as was said, to coordinate the hand off. Since it sounds as if there was enough visibility to perhaps see the airport, separation is still you concern and responsibility as well. Also as an FYI I have gotten the hand off pretty late in the whole process and with 2 miles of the landing. On at least one ILS I got the hand off to tower as I passed the outer marker. So it is not uncommon to get into the class D and not be talking to tower.
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Obviously on an ILS approach, other other than a visual approach, center can hand you off whenever. Totally different situation here. In this case I am approaching a busy class D with airplanes in the pattern on a visual approach. Do I enter at base?, 45, straight in? I anticipate that Seattle forgot me, which later turned out to be exactly the case. For me to continue into the airspace without bringing it someones attention when I have flown in there hundreds of times and know normal procedure would be negligent. How many times have you questioned an approach instruction when you knew the controller made an error? My main beef is the arrogant berating by center controller.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're IFR, and the controller hasn't switched you, you cannot "bust airspace" -- you are complying with the regulations since you're talking to ATC and flying your cleared route. If you surprise the tower controller, that's the Center controller's problem, not yours. Obviously you don't want to hit anyone else, so you keep your scan going and maneuver as necessary to "see and avoid" (that's always your responsibility in VMC, even under IFR, no matter whose airspace you're in) and you don't actually land without a landing clearance, but you don't anticipate the switch. If there's a problem, it is likely that the tower controller will call the Center supe to complain if s/he doesn't like the in-close handoff. But to switch without being directed while IFR is a definite no-no -- if you can't stand it, ask, but don't switch without instruction as you don't know what the deal is between Tower and Center and if you switch without direction, you may miss a critical instruction.
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You are right I cannot bust airspace but center can violate procedures with tower, as was done here. "But you don't anticipate the switch." I disagree. I anticipate everything. How many times has center given you an instruction that you knew was wrong and you clarified with center? Same here. I agree that you cannot switch without an ok. I did not do that. I told center I was going to switch since I knew he had forgotten about it. I would never switch without his acknowledgement. Like I said next time I will use different verbage to avoid affecting a sensitive ego. I expected a courteous reply not a smart alleck response. If there was something different going on he could have simply said stay with me.
 
olblugill said:
How many times have you questioned an approach instruction when you knew the controller made an error? My main beef is the arrogant berating by center controller.
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But you did not question him, you proposed an action and that is what set him off. A better way to handle it would have been to ask what runway to expect. BTW even in a visual situation the approach controller may set you up for landing on an active runway for straight in or a base type entry. He may already be talking on the phone with the tower to get you sequenced in. Your action were going to potentially disrupt that flow. He may have over reacted but then you action was an over reaction as well.
 
olblugill said:
"But you don't anticipate the switch." I disagree. I anticipate everything. How many times has center given you an instruction that you knew was wrong and you clarified with center? Same here. I agree that you cannot switch without an ok. I did not do that.
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What I meant was you don't preempt the controller switching you by switching yourself, not that you shouldn't be mentally prepared for the switch -- clearly, we're in total agreement on the concept if not the wording.

I told center I was going to switch since I knew he had forgotten about it.
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I might try to accomplish the same with different phrasing ("Center, 22RL, did I miss a switch to tower?" or something like that). I would not just announce that I was switching without direction, because there might be a reason he hadn't switched me, and I definitely wouldn't convey the idea that "I knew he had forgotten about it" [emphasis added]-- too much chance of seeming like I knew better than he did (i.e., the controller thinking I was giving him an "arrogant berating"), which doesn't sit well with controllers (even if I did know better than he did).
 
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smigaldi said:
But you did not question him, you proposed an action and that is what set him off. A better way to handle it would have been to ask what runway to expect. BTW even in a visual situation the approach controller may set you up for landing on an active runway for straight in or a base type entry. He may already be talking on the phone with the tower to get you sequenced in. Your action were going to potentially disrupt that flow. He may have over reacted but then you action was an over reaction as well.
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I agree that my verbage could have been better. I like your suggestion aksing which Runway to expect. Eric
 
olblugill said:
For me to continue into the airspace without bringing it someones attention when I have flown in there hundreds of times and know normal procedure would be negligent. How many times have you questioned an approach instruction when you knew the controller made an error? My main beef is the arrogant berating by center controller.
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"Seattle Center, Bugsmasher 123, did I miss a handoff to tower?"
 
relationhip with ATC is just like any other controlling relationship, parents, wife, whatever. always make it seem like you made the mistake and you will always get along
 
olblugill said:
Comments?
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If I suspect they have forgotten about us I say, "Do you want N12345 to go to tower now?" Either the answer is "no", for whatever reason, or "oops I forgot about you because I got tied up with other things". Well, they won't really come out and say that most of the time but I think it's what actually happens. In either case, the objective should be working together to make the air traffic flow smoothly and safely rather than trying to blame each other and going on power trips. Of course I know there are arrogant, snippy controllers who may be having a bad day just as there are arrogant, snippy pilots, but that's not the way it should be and not the way it is most of the time.

In any case I see working with ATC as being a collaborative effort rather than an adversarial one. Maybe it's because I've had a lot of experience in the past negotiating with controllers for access to certain airspace, or maybe it's because a long time ago I considered joining the Dark Side.
 
tonycondon said:
relationhip with ATC is just like any other controlling relationship, parents, wife, whatever. always make it seem like you made the mistake and you will always get along
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Or to quote Lazarus Long... If you ever find yourself in an argument and you know you're right, apologize!
 
"Center, 123, field in sight."

Just one of those "cue phrases" you can use with ATC to remind them you're there. :yes:
 
"Center, 123, field in sight."
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That's a good cue, but if Eric was already cleared for the visual he either had already reported the field in sight OR he had the preceding aircraft in sight (and hence shouldn't have been confused about what he was supposed to do next...just follow that guy to the runway).
 
flyingron said:
That's a good cue, but if Eric was already cleared for the visual he either had already reported the field in sight OR he had the preceding aircraft in sight (and hence shouldn't have been confused about what he was supposed to do next...just follow that guy to the runway).
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OK then...


"Center, tower in sight." :rofl:
 
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