Gusting-- do you all have personal minimums?

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Tracey

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tracey
I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are on gusts. Yesterday it was gusting to 25 (310/18G25) and that really made me uncomfortable. I'm wondering if anyone has set personal minimums with regard to gusts.

(And--this might be the worlds stupidest question-- but does "gust" means that it doesn't necessarily come from the same direction as the stated/reported winds? Or does it, but it "gusts" as opposed to being consistent?).

Also, I was curious if the plane cannot take a certain velocity of wind, I've looked in the POH but have not found anything stating that-- and I mean on a VFR day, obviously not a hurricane-ish situation.

Again, thanks everyone. Your input has already helped me immensely!
 
I don't have a personal minimum that I could write down. In the words of any great politician "It depends!" At altitude it really does not matter much. T/O and landing is different and right down the runway verses crosswind is different.

Airplanes are designed to fly in the wind. I have flown thru a couple hurricanes and it is really not that bad, really good ground speed if you hit it on the right side. All in all its not a bad idea to know ones limits and if the gusty wind makes you uncomfortable then maybe tomorrow will be better.
 
Gusts usually come from the same general direction as the wind is being reported, but certainly can vary. If you are in the air landing is not optional so you will need to decide based on observations of the wind sock what the winds are doing when you are in the pattern. They can vary minute by minute, if they are a problem go around and try again. If the gusts are too strong wait10 mins and try again. Don't let it worry you, just be patient. Stress can cause very bad decision making.

If the winds are down the runway I usually add 10 MPH to the approach speed as a gust factor. Some instructors want 1/2 the wind added.

The best thing to do IMHO is get out there and fly in the winds. Here in Nebraska the wind blows all the time basically. You deal with it or stay on the ground.

Personal limits are a funny thing. If you don't have them you can do something dumb, if you have them you usually push those limits higher anyway to set new personal limits based on your experience level. Knowing what you can push is call judgement.
 
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Geico266 said:
If the gusts are too strong wait10 mins and try again. Don't let it worry you, just be patient. Stress can cause very bad decision making.
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This is something that I need to get a better handle on, maybe it comes with time? I need to put myself in stressful situations so that I can work on this/ figure it out. When I soloed, I really scared myself by my unanticipated floating (I know that's probably not a big deal to most people here, but it was my first time alone in an airplane and this experience was completely unanticipated). I did not like the "uh-oh" feeling that I got and I need to develop some tools to deal with this when it happens again. (Because I have a feeling it will).
 
The wind's effects on the landing airplane vary with terrain.

Some areas cause a much rougher ride with winds of 15-20 (West Virginia, where I used to fly a lot) than other areas (Eastern PA, where we live now is much flatter).

I've been writing a blog article about this and it's a work in progress...
 
dmccormack said:
The wind's effects on the landing airplane vary with terrain.

Some areas cause a much rougher ride with winds of 15-20 (West Virginia, where I used to fly a lot) than other areas (Eastern PA, where we live now is much flatter).

I've been writing a blog article about this and it's a work in progress...
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Let me know when you're done, I'd love to read it.

And that's interesting how in different areas gusts can have different effects on flying.. although I've flown in really mountainous terrain and relatively flat and to me, it seemed the same, but I don't have a ton of experience either.
 
Tracey: Best thing to do is to get ahold of a good CFI, go out on a day that is a "safely windy" one and to a field preferably with a crosswind runway, and shoot T/O's and landings into the wind and with a crosswind if you can get that done as well. You'll be amazed at how your confidence will build.

BTW you are not alone in your initial reaction to windy/gusty conditions....
 
DutchessFlier said:
Tracey: Best thing to do is to get ahold of a good CFI, go out on a day that is a "safely windy" one and to a field preferably with a crosswind runway, and shoot T/O's and landings into the wind and with a crosswind if you can get that done as well. You'll be amazed at how your confidence will build.

BTW you are not alone in your initial reaction to windy/gusty conditions....
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Thank you for your last comment, always makes me feel better to know I'm not "the only one."

And your idea is a good one, I guess I'm still trying to figure out what a "safely windy" day is. Although I can ask my instructor what he thinks and go with that.
 
Gusts are certainly uncomfortable. If the wind is more-or-less aligned with the runway, carrying a little extra speed helps, though you certainly still get bumped around. The point of the extra speed (1/2 gust factor) is so that as the wind varies (and with it your angle of attack as you try to maintain a constant rate of descent at a consistent airspeed) you don't get too close to a stall.

Gusts in a crosswind can be much trickier. What the limits would be depend a lot on the airplane you're flying and your experience (total and recent) in those types of conditions, and the runway width. Even very experienced pilots have gotten "bitten" by a sudden crosswind gust. Do not be afraid to go around and try again, or flee for another runway more aligned with the wind.

I echo the recommendations of going out and "playing in the winds" with a CFI when you get the chance. Your CFI WILL set limits on winds when you solo and should modify them as you get more experience.
 
Tracey said:
Thank you for your last comment, always makes me feel better to know I'm not "the only one."

And your idea is a good one, I guess I'm still trying to figure out what a "safely windy" day is. Although I can ask my instructor what he thinks and go with that.
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See! That is good decision making right there. Flying is a balance of being bold, being cautious, and using good judgement. I think by you even asking the questions about gusts and winds shows you are going to be an accomplished aviator.


Don't worry about being stressed, that will happen sooner or later. ;)
 
I learned to fly at an airport that is on a ridge on extreme eastern edge of the Front Range foothills, BJC in the Denver area. Winds are frequently "interesting" there.

First, gusts: The gust factor is the difference between the gust and the steady wind. So 15G25 is a gust factor of 10. Rule of thumb is to add 1/2 the gust factor to the approach speed. Certainly gust factors less than 10 knots usually aren't a problem for a 172.

Wind speed: As someone else posted, airplanes always "see" wind so by itself wind is not a problem. Another rule of thumb is that wind speeds in excess of 0.6*Vs are a problem for maneuvering the aircraft on the ground. Certainly each plane is different, I'd rather taxi the Dakota in strong winds than a 172. Taildraggers obviously live in their own world and I have no idea what their limits might be.
 
Geico266 said:
See! That is good decision making right there. Flying is a balance of being bold, being cautious, and using good judgement. I think by you even asking the questions about gusts and winds shows you are going to be an accomplished aviator.


Don't worry about being stressed, that will happen sooner or later. ;)
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:blush: Thanks.

About being stressed, I just hope the next time it happens I'm with an instructor.
 
Clark1961 said:
First, gusts: The gust factor is the difference between the gust and the steady wind. So 15G25 is a gust factor of 10. Rule of thumb is to add 1/2 the gust factor to the approach speed. Certainly gust factors less than 10 knots usually aren't a problem for a 172.

Wind speed: As someone else posted, airplanes always "see" wind so by itself wind is not a problem. Another rule of thumb is that wind speeds in excess of 0.6*Vs are a problem for maneuvering the aircraft on the ground. Certainly each plane is different, I'd rather taxi the Dakota in strong winds than a 172. Taildraggers obviously live in their own world and I have no idea what their limits might be.
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But are the gusts from the same direction as the reported winds? Or are they their own entity, from wherever?

And thank you for all of this information!
 
TMetzinger said:
so that as the wind varies (and with it your angle of attack as you try to maintain a constant rate of descent at a consistent airspeed) you don't get too close to a stall.
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Ding ding. This is what scared me.
 
As you develop experience, you'll gain confidence. As Clark noted above, I would rather taxi a low-wing aircraft in high winds than a high-wing.

In my Bonanza, I have comfortably landed in winds reported as 16G25, pretty much pure crosswind, but I was hair-triggered ready to perform a go-around, and I always carry enough fuel to get to an alternate with better conditions (whether it be wind, sky or whatever) if my destination does not work out.

Also noted above: once you are in the air, landing is not optional, so you have to make sure you don't let the wind psych you out. Be methodical, plan, fly, adjust to what you encounter. The biggest problem I have seen people have with winds, is when they go all passive and allow the wind to control the airplane -- and that's the pilot's job! If the wind pushes you around, push back!

My favorite wind story is when I arrived at Santa Fe, NM right as a gust front arrived as well - Tower says, "Bonanza 123, traffic you are following is the twin Cessna emerging from the dust cloud on short final." And he was right! the wind that day went from near-calm to 14G37, about 45* off runway. It was intimidating, and I was very new to the Bo, but I flew the plane to the runway, waited until I felt stable, and planted it.

As suggested: go out with a good instructor, on a windy day, and practice! You'll be pleased with how your understanding of the dynamics grows, and with it, your confidence and judgment.
 
Tracey said:
But are the gusts from the same direction as the reported winds? Or are they their own entity, from wherever?

And thank you for all of this information!
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Gusts are reported as from the same direction as the steady wind and that's mostly true in strong winds. Light winds can be another story.

Other posters have given good advise about going up with an instructor on windy days to find your own limits. Those limits will change as you mature as a pilot and fly different aircraft. Lots to learn, just take it one step at a time and always work on your technique. It all (mostly anyway) moves into the subconscious pretty quick and you find yourself handling conditions that you never dreamed you could as a pre-checkride student.
 
SCCutler said:
My favorite wind story is when I arrived at Santa Fe, NM right as a gust front arrived as well - Tower says, "Bonanza 123, traffic you are following is the twin Cessna emerging from the dust cloud on short final." And he was right! the wind that day went from near-calm to 14G37, about 45* off runway. It was intimidating, and I was very new to the Bo, but I flew the plane to the runway, waited until I felt stable, and planted it.
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I've got a couple, but perhaps my favorite was flying to Dallas one day for an evening meeting. I was just ahead of a squall line & about 5 miles from the IAF for the ILS into Redbird (er, "Dallas Exec"). Approach called me and said "Executive is closed, state intentions" - Squall line <20 miles west of me. Gosh, I'll take Lancaster!

ROugh ride down, carried a little extra airspeed, planted it, and within 5 minutes of the time I parked the skies opened.

As suggested: go out with a good instructor, on a windy day, and practice! You'll be pleased with how your understanding of the dynamics grows, and with it, your confidence and judgment.
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Agree. I've got so many hours in my plane that when I'm VFR I barely glance at the airspeed - I judge by looking out the window and the sounds of the plane. But it took many hours to get there.
 
deltafox said:
What is the maximum crosswind component for your airplane?
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I have no idea what the book value for demonstrated crosswind component. My airplane is old enough that there probably isn't one. The maximum crosswind component is whatever you can't handle on touchdown without sideloading the gear.

In fact, in my plane, crosswinds aren't as big of a problem on landing as they are taxiing. The Navion is a pig on the ground and with enough taxi crosswind you can be holding maximum rudder deflection and still having a difficult time getting it to track straight at low speeds.

It's mostly a matter of technique. They hang the "NO STUDENT SOLO" sign up here when it gets up to 10G15. Back when I learned in Colorado, 20G33 was good student solo weather.
 
Tracey said:
Interesting. Weren't you getting tossed all around though?
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It was a bit rough, but the eye is where all the vetical movement is that can be dangerous. If you stay to the outside of it then the winds just rotate around the center. Over the ocean there is not alot of ground interference to disrupt the circular flow.

You are getting some good advise on here. I learned a ton from an instructor who would alway take me up when the winds are strong and
go to an airport where you have a good crosswind and just pratice with him. Like others said maybe this would be good for you.
 
What I'm comfortable with is rarely a limiting factor of what I do. I do stuff I'm not comfortable with all the time, I just make sure I have options.18-25 on a direct crosswind will be a definite challenge in a 172; I don't know anyone who would be particularly comfortable with it. As long as you have rudder left when you're pointing down the runway, you are still in the realm of safe operations. That is what the rudder does is holds your alignment with the centerline (you can gain quite an advantage on the wind angle by using a diagonal line on the runway rather than the centerline BTW) you bank the plane into the direction of the wind to make up for your cross drift. Note you're in a slip at this point so your drag is going to be slowing you down a lot faster in the flare so at normal states of energy for flare, this is going to get you in trouble. That's why you hear recommendations of only carry flaps 20 and carry all this extra speed... Extra speed in a gusty wind is appropriate but only half the GUST value. That means 18 G25 means you carry an extra 3.5kts, not an extra 12.5 kts as I often see it interpreted. I don't agree with these methods (outside the appropriate gust value), the much better method is to make up fur the extra drag with extra thrust. This has the added benefit of increasing the airflow across the rudder with prop wash and making it more effective. Also kinetic energy (speed) is less finitely controllable and will take longer to get rid of once you touch down than mechanical energy which you can lose instantly by pulling the throttle leaving you In a definite non flying state of energy rather in the high hazard transitional state of energy where you are at much greater risk of being blown off your wheels.

Remember, you have 2 energies to work with, kinetic and mechanical, choose the right one to manage the right risk.
 
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I can deal with reasonable gusts straight down the runway as long as there is a good bit of runway. I'm still a rookie and in a tailwheel plane, so crosswind gusts are another matter. I can deal with 10 knots crosswind very comfortably if it's not gusting. Gusty crosswinds get my attention and will probably keep me on the ground at this point in my flying.
 
flyingron said:
It's mostly a matter of technique. They hang the "NO STUDENT SOLO" sign up here when it gets up to 10G15. Back when I learned in Colorado, 20G33 was good student solo weather.
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Word. I consider 10G15 great weather along the Colorado Front Range.

I departed KAPA about 2 weeks ago and the winds were 28G42. My biggest concern was taxiing. It was aligned enough with the runway that the crosswind wasn't very bad. It did take a lot of pushing an pulling on the knobs in the cockpit, but I managed to grease it back on.
 
Shoot, most of TX 10 g15 would leave you about 15 solo days a year. Luckily the runways and winds align pretty well (you may have to use the unpaved one) so it's not much of an issue.
 
Tracey said:
But are the gusts from the same direction as the reported winds? Or are they their own entity, from wherever?

And thank you for all of this information!
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Winds in a High pressure system flow outward, downward and clockwise.

Winds in a Low pressure system flow inward, upward and counter clockwise.

What this may possibly mean to you, the winds may accelerate in a clockwise or counterclockwise fashion however they will not vary in a great enough degree most of the time for you to try and figure out intellectually how to handle it.

Also remember that surface friction will straighten out the winds at the surface, so you may experience a slight difference on high final then you would at touchdown zone elevation. Also, keep in mind mechanical turbulence from buildings, trees, etc in the vicinity of the airport.

As you can see there is a lot to factor in if you look at it intellectually. So get rid of the idea of thinking to yourself "if the wind gusts at 6 knots from my left then I need to give 4 degrees of aileron...." while that is great to know, and to anticipate what may happen the bottom line is that you can bet your bottom dollar on this - "you make whatever control inputs you have to make to get the aircraft to do what you want it to do"

You do this by adding half the gust factor to your approach speed.

Another thing you do, while talking crosswinds - if you have the rudder to the floor and cannnot maintain the centerline then go around and find another runway. Don't need a crosswind calculator to tell you that.

Yes I was a little scared on my first solo XC when it was 18G24. I was also a little scared when I first soloed a helicopter in 18G22. Just don't let the fear keep you from making good decisions and making whatever control inputs are necessary to make the aircraft do what you want it to do. If you aren't a little scared then you are dangerous IMHO.
 
Geico266 said:
Gusts usually come from the same general direction as the wind is being reported, but certainly can vary. If you are in the air landing is not optional so you will need to decide based on observations of the wind sock what the winds are doing when you are in the pattern. They can vary minute by minute, if they are a problem go around and try again. If the gusts are too strong wait10 mins and try again. Don't let it worry you, just be patient. Stress can cause very bad decision making.

If the winds are down the runway I usually add 10 MPH to the approach speed as a gust factor. Some instructors want 1/2 the wind added.

The best thing to do IMHO is get out there and fly in the winds. Here in Nebraska the wind blows all the time basically. You deal with it or stay on the ground.

Personal limits are a funny thing. If you don't have them you can do something dumb, if you have them you usually push those limits higher anyway to set new personal limits based on your experience level. Knowing what you can push is call judgement.
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+1..... Well spoken sir.
 
Here's a video a buddy shot. It's kinda long but has a 15-18 direct x wind landing at the end.
 
N801BH said:
Hey..... That looks familier...... Maybe Leesburg Fla ???

I solo'ed there...:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod::):wink2:
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Yep, I was going to inspect a Travelair for a buyer and took my Moldovan buddy along. We came back at night and I did the 10' over the Everglades with the lightshow of alligator eyes run lol.
 
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Some time after getting my private there was an otherwise nice day with winds forecast to gust to 24 knots direct crosswind. So I called my CFI and asked if he would come along for a few trips around the pattern. This is in a 172. We took off for our first trip around the pattern and it was quite bumpy. Once aloft it was quite obvious there was a very fast moving developing towering cumulus approaching the airport. Tower had us do a 360 for spacing (some turboprop was arriving). We had plenty of cloud clearance but it just kept getting bumpier, *really* bumpy, and all of the sudden, rain as we rolled out of the 360 back onto the downwind. At this point we made a short approach, power on, no flaps. I just worked it all the way down, rudder was just at the stops, aileron nearly so. You do what you have to do. It was a surprisingly smooth and slow landing. Just after we landed the tower called the winds again - a direct crosswind 14G27! We decided to call it a day, but I learned plenty during just that one lap of the pattern.

The most important part is not to get freaked out and stop flying the airplane. You don't put in some crosswind correction when you roll out on final and just keep it there. You keep doing what you have to do to stay lined up and pointed forward. And you don't stop doing that until you are all the way back to the parking spot.
 
Clark1961 said:
I learned to fly at an airport that is on a ridge on extreme eastern edge of the Front Range foothills, BJC in the Denver area. Winds are frequently "interesting" there.
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KBJC is the only airport where I've ever watched a line of aircraft flying on the tie-down cables. :)
 
spinfire said:
The most important part is not to get freaked out and stop flying the airplane. You don't put in some crosswind correction when you roll out on final and just keep it there. You keep doing what you have to do to stay lined up and pointed forward. And you don't stop doing that until you are all the way back to the parking spot.
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And that is a really good lesson to learn-- when I was first trying to 'get' landings, I didn't realize that I would stop flying the plane... I did what I thought needed to be done and then stopped. My CFI pointed this out and that was a big "a-ha!" moment for me. So to apply that to all things is a good reminder.

And :yikes: on your story! Good job!
 
Thanks for posting that video Henning. Nice landing! Your friend is a little enamoured with himself at the end there, huh? :giggle:
 
I agree with Dan -- it really depends on terrain.

In Iowa, our airport was down in a bowl with ridges to the North that made gusty crosswinds tricky. Another more extreme example of this is Prairie du Chien, WI, which has 500' Mississippi River bluffs on one edge of the airport.

In both cases, the wind swirls like water rushing over a big rock at the bottom of a fast-moving river, making a gusty-wind landing a moment-to-moment adventure.

Here on the island, with nothing but ocean and flat land all 'round, a gusty crosswind is practically a non-event, and a steady wind is usually smooth as glass no matter what the wind speed. I landed yesterday in an 80-degree crosswind, with the wind gusting from 11 to 18, easy as pie.

So, to tie this back into your subject line, my gusting personal minimums have gone up since moving to the island, simply because the terrain is less of an issue.
 
When I was in the Coast Guard I heard stories from the guys in Jacksonville and Miami getting called on SAR cases in the swamps, and the helo would be doing a search pattern and you'd see eyes popping up at you all over. Not sure I'd like being a rescue swimmer in that situation. At least where I was all you had to worry about was the cold water, the panicked victims, and the occasional whale when you were doing your swim drills.
 
Tracey said:
Did you really see alligators?
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Geez... you mean they don't have gators up in the NE :dunno:.:rofl:

The largest gator I have even seen was in Lake Apopka, sunning on the bank,,,, darn thing was the size of my Warrior's wing... And the lake shown in the video, Lake Griffen has hundreds of 12 -15 footers in it so don't land short at Leesburg. :no::no:.

In Hennings video at 1:34 or so I can see several gators in the water and on the bank.
 
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Henning said:
Shoot, most of TX 10 g15 would leave you about 15 solo days a year. Luckily the runways and winds align pretty well (you may have to use the unpaved one) so it's not much of an issue.
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Same with New England. 10-15 was a standard day when I was learning in Rhode Island.
 
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