TMetzinger
Final Approach
What do gators call call bad aviators?
Snack.
Snack.
Gusting-- do you all have personal minimums?
- Thread starter Tracey
- Start date
Lol. I was going to say "lunch." But I guess it depends on the size of the aviator to determine if they're a full meal or just a snack!
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Something to think about - in your other post you mentioned that you just recently soloed. With that in mind, flying in winds 18G25 would make just about any student pilot uncomfortable. 18G25 is by no means unmanageable, but definitely the kind of thing you would want to gain experience flying in with an instructor until you are comfortable.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
I'm a meal.
Mike's a snack.
Ted's a toothpick.
I'm too old and too wise to start categorizing the ladies.
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
depends on wind speed, gust strength, wind direction, runway direction, mission, and how i'm feeling that day
Girl, it's amazing how many glowing pairs of yellow orbs reflect back in your landing lights lol. I only do it in one area SE where I can get to a safe landing levee with my kinetic energy.
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Geez... you mean they don't have gators up in the NE.
The largest gator I have even seen was in Lake Apopka, sunning on the bank,,,, darn thing was the size of my Warrior's wing... And the lake shown in the video, Lake Griffen has hundreds of 12 -15 footers in it so don't land short at Leesburg..
In Hennings video at 1:34 or so I can see several gators in the water and on the bank.
Exactly, which is why I chose to do the 360 instead of follow the Cirrus's bomber pattern with 5 mile final...
Alligators down here are good for a free 3 strokes if you have to play around them.
Exactly, which is why I chose to do the 360 instead of follow the Cirrus's bomber pattern with 5 mile final...
Yeah,,, I did see the Cirrus on a 3 mile final and at your 2 oclock position at 3: 42 or so into the video......
Alligators are ancient and fully evolved into their position in nature. The are very efficient with energy; anyone big enough to be an aviator will provide 3 weeks sustenance, a FAA 170lb male would be over a months worth. They really are pretty cool. I remember when my cousin had me pull up next to one on Bayou Black and then grabbed this 4' gator by the tail and tosses it in the boat lol, I s-t, but I kept driving, his girlfriend was between me and the gator. She on the other hand went off lol.... It was pretty calm about it though and just clambered over the side. Saltwater Crocs in Aus are a different matter, they'll hunt humans.
Yeah, I always had a glide option to clear solid land, I treat Okeechobee the same way.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
So we don't get winds that often. Haven't done a crosswind landing in what seems like ages. I get to the airport two weeks ago, for a flight I had planned at least several weeks out due to the CFI's schedule (she doesn't work Sundays). There I am, money on account, airplane checkout quiz all filled out, and there are clouds, rain, and winds gusting to 25 at about 30-40 degrees off the runway heading. I decide to hang around all day (6 hours) and wait it out. Nothing changes or gets any better. Finally I look at the CFI and say "I know it isn't a good day for a checkout, but according to the crosswind components we are within safe limits - can we just call it a lesson so I can safely see what it is like to fly in this crap and do a couple of laps around the pattern with you?" She said ok but warned me it would not be "fun" or pretty. I said I don't mind, this is a learning opportunity with a CFI. As I started my preflight, the plane seemed to almost be blown over. I thought about turning back. By the time we got up there (had to come back, tach not working) it wasn't too bad and looking at the AWOS in the flight school it had died down to 7 knots. If I was alone or with passengers, I would have NOT gone flying but that is OK since I'm a fair weather flyer and have nowhere to be and nothing to prove.
Eagle I
Pre-takeoff checklist
I was happy to see this post, because I've been afraid of strong winds while flying, and thought maybe I was just a wimp. I've had only 12 lessons so far, but at least 9 of them seemed to be in what I'd call pretty strong winds. The worst was when my CFI told me that we had encountered wind shear, with winds gusting to 30 knots. The day had started off calmly enough, but suddenly while returning to KGON for a landing, I felt like I had no control over the plane. I was scared out of my mind! She, however, didn't seem to be the least bit fazed. That's when I realized that so much of learning to fly is about experiencing all sorts of conditions. I think that someday I'll look back and laugh at the day when I thought a good gust of wind would flip my Piper Cherokee over, or even worse, tear off a wing. But for now, it remains a very real fear!
That's the spirit!
And I'm with you on being a fair weather flyer with nothing to prove. Well, except that I can be safe! (And I know it's the same for you).
<---- my new favorite guy. But really, 30 kts?!
I think it's San Carlos, it's one of those on the narow strip between the coast ridge and bayshore in S Bay, N of PAO; at the SW end of a bridge. You'll almost always find a gusty cross wind to deal with all the way to the threshold. That is one airport I always land long due to the hangars near the normal approach end. You'll still get some cross wind even landing long due to the ridge line next to you, it just won't throw you at the bottom.
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Eagle I
Pre-takeoff checklist
30 knots is what my CFI told me! I'll just never forget that feeling of having no control, that the wind was the boss! I kept thinking, "If we can just land safely this time, I'll never fly again!" But of course I was back at it in two weeks.
I know that feeling well! But I've been told by the good folks here to not let the wind be the PIC! *YOU* are the PIC! Good job getting back in the plane.30 knots is what my CFI told me! I'll just never forget that feeling of having no control, that the wind was the boss! I kept thinking, "If we can just land safely this time, I'll never fly again!" But of course I was back at it in two weeks.
Eagle I
Pre-takeoff checklist
I know that feeling well! But I've been told by the good folks here to not let the wind be the PIC! *YOU* are the PIC! Good job getting back in the plane.
For better or worse, I'm not the type who gives up easily! I really do love to fly. It's the most challenging thing I've ever done, but also the most rewarding when all goes well.
30 knots is what my CFI told me! I'll just never forget that feeling of having no control, that the wind was the boss! I kept thinking, "If we can just land safely this time, I'll never fly again!" But of course I was back at it in two weeks.
30 kts down the runway is a gift from God. You can take that directly off your intercept speed with the hard unforgiving surface. That reduces your kinetic energy of intercept in a squared formula reduction. The lower that energy value is with you under control, the easier it is for you to 'grease it on', much less survive an error. In a 70kt headwind, landing is achievable at a hover or near so. Taxi OTOH lol, that's gonna be more interesting.
j1b3h0
Line Up and Wait
The best thing experience teaches is what to be afraid of. My crosswind limits are mostly dependent on what I'm flying...I would MUCH rather be in a Citabria than, say, a 172 or 150. Why? Because the Citabria has much more authoritive flight controls - same with a Great Lakes or Pitts - with a little (OK, a lot) of practice, 30kt. direct crosswind landings are doable, and with any more wind than that, I can land those airplanes in the WIDTH of some runways.
Someone mentioned the effect of local terrain. That can be very entertaining. I used to fly in to Palm Springs (KPSP) in small airliners - Metroliners, Saab 340s and the EMB-145s, and when the Santa Ana winds piped up, we would be on the edge of our chairs! I've been in moderate turbulence while the gear was still in transit at that place. Another place that would have me really paying attention was Monterey (KMRY) during any winter storm with strong winds out of the south and a circle to land on rny 28...take my advice: Strap in.
One thing that is hard to teach a student is how to recognize when it's just not safe to land (because the winds are so strong). For one thing, if it's really blowing dogs off chains, you may well experience moderate turbulence once below 1000ft. and as you approach the runway, you can't ignore that to track the runway centerline, the nose has to be pointed well into the wind. The critical part is when flaring for touch down, is it possible arrest the drift and still track the center line? AND, (this part is mandatory) it's essential to NOT let the airplane land - stop the sink rate with power - until you're sure you can arrest the drift.
Cessna trainers are pathetic crosswind airplanes. They possess the worst of all worlds - weak, ineffective rudders and weak steering springs. The Cessna people believe its pilots should recognise (from their inability to taxi in a crosswind) that flying in it would be hazardous. Piper Cherokees, on the other hand, have garage-door springs for steering and, coupled with their wide-stance main gear, well, if you can just get it on the ground while pointed in the right direction, you'll have no trouble taxiing to the ramp.
The problem with Citabrias is you can land in wind that you can't taxi in. One can only head to the nearest up-wind tie down, and rope the airplane to the tarmac.
Someone mentioned the effect of local terrain. That can be very entertaining. I used to fly in to Palm Springs (KPSP) in small airliners - Metroliners, Saab 340s and the EMB-145s, and when the Santa Ana winds piped up, we would be on the edge of our chairs! I've been in moderate turbulence while the gear was still in transit at that place. Another place that would have me really paying attention was Monterey (KMRY) during any winter storm with strong winds out of the south and a circle to land on rny 28...take my advice: Strap in.
One thing that is hard to teach a student is how to recognize when it's just not safe to land (because the winds are so strong). For one thing, if it's really blowing dogs off chains, you may well experience moderate turbulence once below 1000ft. and as you approach the runway, you can't ignore that to track the runway centerline, the nose has to be pointed well into the wind. The critical part is when flaring for touch down, is it possible arrest the drift and still track the center line? AND, (this part is mandatory) it's essential to NOT let the airplane land - stop the sink rate with power - until you're sure you can arrest the drift.
Cessna trainers are pathetic crosswind airplanes. They possess the worst of all worlds - weak, ineffective rudders and weak steering springs. The Cessna people believe its pilots should recognise (from their inability to taxi in a crosswind) that flying in it would be hazardous. Piper Cherokees, on the other hand, have garage-door springs for steering and, coupled with their wide-stance main gear, well, if you can just get it on the ground while pointed in the right direction, you'll have no trouble taxiing to the ramp.
The problem with Citabrias is you can land in wind that you can't taxi in. One can only head to the nearest up-wind tie down, and rope the airplane to the tarmac.
Go fly in the windiest gustiest crap you can find. Takeoff and land until you are comfortable with it and then find someplace else with more wind. Do this until you can't handle anymore wind.
Now you know what your personal limits are, and for the love of baby Jesus do it with a CFI.
Now you know what your personal limits are, and for the love of baby Jesus do it with a CFI.
Eagle I
Pre-takeoff checklist
Uh, thanks, Henning, but unfortunately I'm such a flying newbie that I'm not sure what you're saying! I do want to clarify here, though, that the 30-knot winds were not on landing, but rather on approach, about three miles out. The wind actually seemed to die down the closer we got to the ground.
azure
Final Approach
A steady 30 kts down the runway is a gift from God. In areas with a lot of buildings or other obstructions like rocks and hills, if it's 30 kts it won't be steady, and it will probably be gustier on time scales of a second or two than the AWOS reports. Strong gusting winds are difficult to do a nice landing in, even if they're right down the runway. Add varying direction and I'm too fond of my airplane to intentionally take it up in conditions like that.
I should probably be more confident in windy conditions by now, but I've had enough close encounters with sudden out-of-the-blue strong gusts nearly blowing me off the runway that when conditions like that are forecast, I usually stay on the ground. I don't have anything to prove either, and I'd rather spend my money on avgas than on fixing damaged gear or replacing a bent prop.
As to going up with a CFI to get more practice -- I agree with that but only if you trust your CFI in the airplane you're flying. CFIs are only human, their skills in a pinch might save your skin but not your airplane if they don't have much time in that specific make and model, or something with similar flight characteristics. My CFII has great stick and rudder skills in a Skyhawk, but he has only a few hours in a Cardinal long ago and if you accidentally try to land a Cardinal like a Skyhawk from habit, you'll be in for a surprise. Unless he took the time to check himself out in it first, I wouldn't feel any safer with him in the right seat of my plane in a 25 kt crosswind than I would alone.
ARFlyer
En-Route
Wow are school's student solo limit is 12 knots and 6 x/w. After 15 knots and 10 x/w our place is shutdown for ANY CERT solo flights. If our winds hit 20 at anytime we shutdown everything for an hour after the reading.
If the wind is gusting and half of that amount added to the steady amount hits our limits we shutdown.
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ARFlyer
En-Route
We learn how to land perfectly in calm winds. 
Now in crosswind conditions bring out some popcorn and a lawn chair.
We have a joke that if you feel the wind or see grass moving don't bother going to the airport.
Now in crosswind conditions bring out some popcorn and a lawn chair. We have a joke that if you feel the wind or see grass moving don't bother going to the airport.
We learn how to land perfectly in calm winds.
We have a joke that if you feel the wind or see grass moving don't bother going to the airport.
That's not flight training..... That is babysitting. And what is worse is the pilots that emerge from that scenerio stand a greater risk of an accident.. IMHO.......... YMMV...
Ben.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
I didn't have any limits on solo though he always wanted me to fly with him first or call him first. One day I checked the AWOS, things sucked so I almost shut down, but they got better, so I took off. He was RIGHT THERE on the taxiway with another student in another plane when things got scary (gust, crosswind) and though I was prepared to go around I did do an OK landing. Put the plane away since the ride around the pattern was so bumpy and crappy but at least I "proved" to myself I could do it. I saw him later and asked if he would have let me take off in that. He said no and I agreed, lesson learned..... but he'd watched me land and said it was good.
ARFlyer
En-Route
Your preaching to the choir.
We have a rule that make us fuel at every stop even if its 1GAL. Must have 100PIC to take PAX. Its like all the decisions are made for you....Off my soapbox now...
Your preaching to the choir.
Off my soapbox now...
Geez.... Now I am having flashbacks of the movie " The Stepford Wives"
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Bob Gardner
If the winds were challenging and I had a slot open in my schedule, I would call students and ask if they could come down to the field for a workout. They always seemed appreciative of the opportunity to see how well they could handle gusty crosswinds with me in the right seat.
Bob Gardner
j1b3h0
Line Up and Wait
Your preaching to the choir.
Off my soapbox now...
I'm guessing they don't rent any tail wheel airplanes. Sounds like they don't want their students learning ADM. Sad, and, ironically more hazardous - if and when such students are faced with the real world later on. Hell, I kept wishing for more wind, just so my students would have the opportunity to fly in those conditions with me (so they will learn what to be afraid of). It's really satisfiing to watch my student struggle with and then master a 10-12kt direct Xwind.
ARFlyer
En-Route
We use to have a Citabria but early last year they found metal in the oil and grounded it. The rumor is that they going to get rid of it cause it serves no purpose in training. Since the goal is airline pilots.
The students think its because they do not like the fact that its an aerobatic plane. As it is all about keeping a good rep for the school on matters of safety. God help us if those helicopter parents find out their precious Bobby/Susie is flying upside down and loops.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
ARFlyer
En-Route
I always feel good after landing in a good crosswind. It like HAY I can fly an airplane.
j1b3h0
Line Up and Wait
The school is absolutely right, of course (kidding). Airline pilots don't need to know how to land. Pray tell, what's the name of this 'professional' flight school? I'd like to encourage my airline to hire some of their students NOT.
ARFlyer
En-Route
Now why would I say that?
That would lump me into that group. :wink2: They say our school has a high rating with the airlines. I will PM you about that! 
LOL, no worries. You'll find that quite often wind loses speed and backs in direction as it comes within a couple hundred feet of the surface and changes with the surface type. It can also be affected by nearby buidings and topography whch can even case large gusts in speed and changes in direction. It's always good to have 'outs' predetermined when practicing (somewhere with safer/easier to deal with winds) and figuring out when that landing just isn't going to happen. No problem scaring yourself a bit, just remember the throttle is your friend. You don't need all of it to just continue to crab over the runway until a gust subsides and you can line back up and drop it back on. Usually the way I time it is as soon as my rudder foot comes off the floor as I swing back into alignment I chop the power and drop it on as I keep a reasonable alignment and nose high attitude.
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gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
In some airplanes a "safely windy day" is one where you can taxi to the runway without getting blown over. But WRT to that comment in this thread, I would suggest it means a time when the wind is more than you are comfortable with but less than the maximum your instructor is comfortable with.
When learning to deal with wind, it's a good idea to pay attention to the expected trend of the wind. It might go from difficult to scary as you are practicing or it might go from tough to easy. If you're pushing out your personal envelope a bit, a time when the wind is picking up but not expected to get nasty might give you more challenges (opportunities to learn) later in the flight while providing an opportunity to make a landing or two under more comfortable conditions. Kinda like wading into deep water rather than jumping in the deep end right away.
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