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flyingcasey67

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flyingcasey67
Hello! New to the Pilot's of America website but wanted to ask a quick question to some kit plane pilots. I have been in the market for a good XC airplane for a while and and only recently started looking at kit planes. Wanted to see everyone's thoughts on a good kit plane to accomplish this task.

Mission profile:
Capacity: 2 seats (Min)
Baggage: 100 lbs worth
Speed: 180 Kts Faster is better... obviously
Range: 600 NM

I would like to have a diesel engine installed so I can avoid 100LL completely, but this isn't an absolute requirement. Maybe something like the EPS engine. I would post a link but I am so new the site wont let me. haha
 
Guessing you're new to aviation, wouldn't get into the whole diesel thing, stick with what's proven and has plenty of support.

Look at Glasairs and lancairs


Also as far as "safety" goes, really no such thing, not in the world of man or nature, but if you prefer science over marketing, the most likely cause of your death in a aircraft is going to be YOU, not the airframe, and by a very large margin.
The best way to prevent you killing yourself, get quality instruction from a EXPERIENCED CFI, of course your natural mental and physical abilities will also come into play, as will your common sense.
 
I'm new to kit planes, not so new to aviation. As far as the engine preference, I've never understood how with all the technology we have available we are still using carbureted, air cooled engines for aircraft. I get that they are "reliable" engines and if you already have one then great but if you have to buy an engine anyway why wouldn't you get something that doesn't have to have special fuel made for it? (100 LL) I could go on and on, but I'll save it for a different thread.

I like Glasairs over lancairs simply due to cost. However in all fairness I haven't actually gotten to see a completed Glasair. Thanks for your thoughts and opinion on the subject.
 
Read up on some of the diamond aircraft and the overnight zero support for some of that whizbang tech, plus 100ll is not going anywhere, the sky isn't falling.

Based on history you're more likely to end up with a grounded airplane because that new fancy diesel engine isn't supported anymore, than you're likely to end up on the ground because you woke up one morning and the world ended 100ll.


Bang for the buck, hard to beat a nice big engined CS RG glasair
 
James, again thanks for your thoughts, and wishes of good fortune.
 
James331 said:
Look at Glasairs and lancairs
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He said he wanted a ‘safe’ airplane. Lancairs Are not for the faint of heart.

I think an RV is the best option for the OP.

Forget the diesel. They just haven’t caught on in GA any better than they did in the 1980s for passenger cars.
 
Much easier to buy a Mooney for the performance you are asking than pursue a kit aircraft. A Mooney does all you're asking and is certified to a standard that has worked over time. Probably cheaper in the long run also. But if you have to have a kit plane, then I would agree that the RV best fits your requirements.
 
I have not looked into RV's. I see them pop up a lot in searches so I will give it some time. Thanks for the recommendation!

Brad Smith said:
Much easier to buy a Mooney
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I as far as certified planes I am in love with Mooney. Constantly going back and forth between the certified / kit. Just seems to me that you get more bang for your buck with the kit plane and you have a lot more freedom on maintenance. That's not to say you can cut corners but you don't have to shell out the bucks for signatures.
 
If flying into to fields with shorter runways is a consideration, the RV-8 is a better option than the Lancair.
 
flyingcasey67 said:
I'm new to kit planes, not so new to aviation. As far as the engine preference, I've never understood how with all the technology we have available we are still using carbureted, air cooled engines for aircraft.
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Yeah... same here. But when the entire market buys less than 500 new piston singles a year (and Cirrus is 2/3 of that) then there's just no money in building and certifying a "modern" engine.. plus with thousands of Lycos and Contis out there there is no real big mystery around them when it comes to troubleshooting a problem and finding parts, support, etc. But I agree, I would love to see the whole "I'm a chemist" thing go away with operating GA engines. Frankly though, as much as I would support diesel I think we'll quicker see more VLJs like the SF50 than diesels really catch on in any volume in the market.. EVEN THOUGH Continental makes a shoe in product for our GA planes.. check this out: http://continentaldiesel.com/typo3/index.php?id=102&L=1

Brad Smith said:
Much easier to buy a Mooney for the performance you are asking than pursue a kit aircraft. A Mooney does all you're asking and is certified to a standard that has worked over time. Probably cheaper in the long run also. But if you have to have a kit plane, then I would agree that the RV best fits your requirements.
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Yeah, in the other thread I said an old PA28 was the best all around "bang for the buck" - and I still agree with that... but what a Mooney gives you for speed and performance and the price they're asking for it's a no brainer if your machine fits it... IE, 1-2 people and looking for speed. There are Mooneys out there for $100K and **well** under that will give you awesome performance.. in a certified aircraft with an existing support network. But I do get the appeal of wanting to build your own plane, so I can't blame the OP!!
 
Fearless Tower said:
He said he wanted a ‘safe’ airplane. Lancairs Are not for the faint of heart.

I think an RV is the best option for the OP.

Forget the diesel. They just haven’t caught on in GA any better than they did in the 1980s for passenger cars.
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Plenty safe if you're a good pilot with a sharp mind and decent level of physical fitness.
 
Range speed payload. Pick any two.

Or, if 160 knots works:
Comanche 260 B or C
Bonanza's
210
182.

Enjoy./
 
Tantalum said:
EVEN THOUGH Continental makes a shoe in product for our GA planes.. check this out: http://continentaldiesel.com/typo3/index.php?id=102&L=1
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Continental makes not just one, but two products: CD-230 is derived from the SMA and CD-155 is derived from Thielert. That's basically all of the two more or less successful diesels. If anyone made a third, Continental might license that one too. :) For the OP, the CD-230 is more suitable, I suspect. It's hard to imagine a 180 kt airplane on 155 hp, no matter what the enthusiasts of canard religion tell us. Well, maybe a V-twin with two CD-155s. That could be sweet and may just break 180 (it's specified for 182 with IO-320 160 hp).
 
What's your budget? Also, if you go E-AB are you looking to build or buy an already flying plane?
 
A budget would be in order to provide any aircraft recommendation.
 
Brad Smith said:
Much easier to buy a Mooney for the performance you are asking than pursue a kit aircraft. A Mooney does all you're asking and is certified to a standard that has worked over time. Probably cheaper in the long run also. But if you have to have a kit plane, then I would agree that the RV best fits your requirements.
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cheaper in the long run? yea right. certified aircraft will never be cheaper in the long run unless the owner is an IA AP. the annuals on a mooney will far outpace the annuals on any homebuilt, including glassair and lancair. no comparison if you are talking RV's. with a experimental you get modern avionics, much cheaper parts, and a newer airframe.

bob
 
Tantalum said:
no money in building and certifying a "modern" engine..
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Someone tell these guys... https://eps.aero/ So everything that I have found about these guys is pretty spot on. Seems like something that could actually happen this year, a certified engine with the FAA with the HP that everyone wants.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
 
Velocity173 said:
A budget would be in order to provide any aircraft recommendation.
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So the budget is something that I am very aware of and I'm a Dave Ramsey fan so I would like to cash flow it, which is one of the major appeals to building my own. Plus I really like the idea of knowing everything about it and not relying on a IA / AP for a signature, which I have to pay to get...

I will say I love the Mooney and it would fit me perfect. However...
unsafervguy said:
with a experimental you get modern avionics, much cheaper parts, and a newer airframe
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No to mention you can usually find a kit that someone purchased and didn't finish or even start and get it for half of the original price. I get that the expensive stuff is the engine and avionics not to mention the time to put it together, but I have two years before I HAVE to have it. I would like it sooner but I have time to save (and buy in two years) or build and save, whatever seems to make the most sense.

If the right deal came along on a Mooney and it had everything with most of the stuff I want on it I would confidently buy it.
 
flyingcasey67 said:
Someone tell these guys... https://eps.aero/ So everything that I have found about these guys is pretty spot on. Seems like something that could actually happen this year, a certified engine with the FAA with the HP that everyone wants.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

Anything esoteric: That thing or anything else...

Where you going to get it repaired when it breaks?

The mechanics on the airfield, any airfield, know standard piston engines. And you don’t always break down at home...

Simple and well known is going to be better if it breaks.
 
You can't beat the Van's RV series for ease of building, speed and good flying manners. With over 10,000 flying it is the best supported homebuilt out there. If you have good basic mechanical skills you can build the quickbuild kits in 1-2years. The 6,7,8 and 14 cruise in the 185 kt range on 10 gph. A really nice equipped IFR airplane will cost about $100,000 to build. I have built two 7s and helped build several more so I know from experience.
 
You could spend many years building an airplane or you could buy a used production aircraft for similar money and be flying today. This is just a hard, cold fact. Are you mechanically inclined? Do you like to do projects around the house? Do you like to maintain all your vehicles? Do you have patience? Do you have the time and space to build an airplane? If you answered yes to those questions then you're probably a good candidate for rolling your own. True, some guys can complete a project like an RV in a couple years and $100,000 and others might take 10 years to do it. All I'm saying is do an honest evaluation of yourself and your needs. I know I'll take a lot of flack for giving this advise, but there is a lot of truth in it. There is no shame in admitting you're not the builder type as most folks aren't. They would rather spend their time flying than reading blueprints or banging rivets. But if you truly realize what building an aircraft entails and are ready to make the sacrifice, then more power to you!
 
All points are well taken. I appreciate the guidance and will continue to ask myself some of the questions noted above. Honestly, the Mooney is looking better and better. haha
 
There are some very nice flying RVs out there for sale. As for building time, I'm a very experienced builder and mechanic and the last RV took me 14 months and 1400 hours to build. To do a project like this you have to work on it every day even if only 1/2 hour to keep the momentum going. The other reason the RV is the best bet is the support community out there. If you have any questions there is somebody that could answer it.There is nothing like flying an airplane you built for the first flight.
 
At 150 kt I would say the Glasair Sportsman, but since you threw down the 180 Kt gauntlet, I have to go with the the RV-8. It will pass most Mooneys (without the additional insurance expense that comes with retractable gear - and the possibility of belly landing...) and Van's planes are lot of fun to fly, but they are all masses of rivets held in place by small pieces of sheet metal.

A Mooney is a nice plane, but "my" plane. Apparently Al's wife was messing around with the local mechanic, so in an act of vengeance he designed a plane that pilots would love, but was a pain to work on.
 
Get yourself a nice Velocity. Meets all the requirements, they're a blast to fly, they're comfortable, and they're much better looking the RVs. It might also be worth looking into the Long EZ, but I'm not sure it would meet the baggage requirement. Both do require a longer airport than the other suggestions you've received.

Plus, you can always fly these on Mogas if you want to avoid 100LL
 
Like Stevie suggested, the Tango should fit your requirements. I can get about 1800 with my Tango. It has the ER tanks. I suggest carrying piddle packs or empty Gatorade bottles if you go full range.

I get an honest 180 knots. In the mid teens where I like to cruise, I can get the GPH down to 8 or a bit less with that speed. With full tanks and two normal (not fat) people, you can get 100 pounds of baggage.

And it took me two years to build. Depending on money and time, you should be able to do the same.

Air to air shots here...

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/air-to-air-tango.105341/

Also, page 98-99 of the March '18 issue of EAA's SportAviation. (Copy is in the link above.)

As far as a diesel engine goes, they're out there, but they're pricey. 2-3 times what a comparable piston would cost.
 
flyingcasey67 said:
Someone tell these guys... https://eps.aero/ So everything that I have found about these guys is pretty spot on. Seems like something that could actually happen this year, a certified engine with the FAA with the HP that everyone wants.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

Just one. This brand new engine design will be subjected to the same reality that Lycoming, Continental, Rotax,Pratt and Whitney - and the Wright Brothers were. The reality is, no one knows what the engine failure points are until they start failing. All of the above engine manufacturers have had catastrophic engine flaws in the early years that
led to pilots dying.

These engines are not another proven engine, modified by an aftermarket company. These are designed and built from the ground up.

The first owners of this engine will have unanticipated failures. Some may be minor but some will be catastrophic, stop-in-flight, issues.

They may happen at the 20 hour mark, the 200 hour mark - or the 800 hour mark, but they will happen. Developing an aircraft engine takes years of in-service operation to weed out all of the inherent material, construction, systems or design flaws.

After years and years, and thousands of hours building your aircraft, do you really want to become a test pilot for an unproven engine?

Some people would answer in the affirmative, due to the apparent benefits, but most would probably say no.
 
flyingcasey67 said:
Honestly, the Mooney is looking better and better. haha
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I cannot help noticing that you deflected the questions of your budget. The "would like to cash flow it" is not an answer with a number (per month or per year). I bought a Mooney because it was cheap at $48k {it's not the same performance bracket as yours: about 145 knots}. If I had the money for it, I would've bought an RV. A decent RV-7 is $75k+ and RV-8 is $110k+. Either of these is going to be closer to your 180 kts target.
 
donjohnston said:
If you're interested in waiting a long time before you can get a plane at 2, 3 or 4 times the announced price which will come in overweight with a 100LL Continental engine, then that's a great choice. ;)
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Don hit a homerun. Disclaimer - he and I are both Velocity owners.
 
Personally I think first time aircraft buyers should stay away from the experimentals. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with an Ex/Ab aircraft, but buying an airplane has issues and a learning curve. ExAb aircraft have lots of issues of their own.
 
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