Got yelled at by ATC....

B

bahama flier

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bahama flier
I had flight following from Miami and was handed off to Orlando. I checked in with Orlando after hand off,,, I was acknowledged by Orlando,,, then... I was yelled at for not being cleared into Bravo airspace.

When Orlando accepted me, I PRESUMED I was cleared although I did not specifically asked for the clearance after they accepted the hand off.

Lesson learned,,, but I have been handed off before and not had to ask specifically for clearance, when I ask for clearance now, I am sometimes been told I was already cleared.... I ask anyway

Does other Bravo ATC's require specific request after hand off in different part of the country?
 
Did the prior controller clear you in?

Sounds like you busted.
Someone HAS to clear you in.
 
If I'm not talking to the correct site, they won't clear me.

Flying over the South Bay talking to NorCal, if I ask for B clearance through the SFO surface area, they will tell me the next controller does that. And usually just hand me off right then.

If you were actually cleared through ORL Class B by the previous controller, someone on the other end screwed up.
 
Miami Center won't issue a Bravo clearance for Orlando.... Unlike class Charlie, a simple flight following hand off without a clearance is not enough to penetrate ANY Bravo. Simply put, you busted Bravo airspace. I would file a NASA report right away.
 
You have to be cleared into the bravo,the hand off is basically just a handoff from one controller to another. In the NY area the controller may tell you on a handoff that the next controller will be the one giving clearance into the Bravo.
 
As I see it, IFR the bravo clearance is included in the routing. On VFR advisories you need to ask for it.

File an ASRS and hope for the best.
 
Interestingly enough, a few years ago I was flying home to Orlando Exec from the keys. I called Miami approach for clearance through the MIA Bravo, which they granted. At that point, I had flight following (which I had not requested, but hey, I'll take it.) all the way up the coast. They handed me off to Orlando Approach (via a couple of changes). Orlando vectored me to take me directly over MCO through the Bravo. Because of clouds, I declined, dropped radar as I dropped out of the Bravo and navigated to ORL. At no time id I ever hear "cleared into the Bravo" but neither did they get mad at me.

Just another data point...
John
 
weilke said:
As I see it, IFR the bravo clearance is included in the routing. On VFR advisories you need to ask for it.

File an ASRS and hope for the best.
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
jsstevens said:
Interestingly enough, a few years ago I was flying home to Orlando Exec from the keys. I called Miami approach for clearance through the MIA Bravo, which they granted. At that point, I had flight following (which I had not requested, but hey, I'll take it.) all the way up the coast. They handed me off to Orlando Approach (via a couple of changes). Orlando vectored me to take me directly over MCO through the Bravo. Because of clouds, I declined, dropped radar as I dropped out of the Bravo and navigated to ORL. At no time id I ever hear "cleared into the Bravo" but neither did they get mad at me.

Just another data point...
John
Click to expand...
But if Orlando gave you an altitude and course that took you through the B, that is indeed a Bravo clearance.
 
Kritchlow said:
But if Orlando gave you an altitude and course that took you through the B, that is indeed a Bravo clearance.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I never heard the "magic" words "cleared into the bravo".

John
 
bahama flier said:
I had flight following from Miami and was handed off to Orlando. I checked in with Orlando after hand off,,, I was acknowledged by Orlando,,, then... I was yelled at for not being cleared into Bravo airspace.

When Orlando accepted me, I PRESUMED I was cleared although I did not specifically asked for the clearance after they accepted the hand off.

Lesson learned,,, but I have been handed off before and not had to ask specifically for clearance, when I ask for clearance now, I am sometimes been told I was already cleared.... I ask anyway

Does other Bravo ATC's require specific request after hand off in different part of the country?
Click to expand...

Yeah flight following per se doesn't carry any airspace clearances with it, even when handed off, and even if they are lax about using the proper phrasing.

You still have to hear some controller use the word "cleared" in such a way that clearance into the B is unambiguous - and you have to hear that each time you leave and reenter bravo airspace.
 
It was a long time ago but I was making a VFR trip to Kissimmee, FL from Michigan. After a stop for fuel at Greenville-Spartanburg I headed for Kissimmee with flight following. When Daytona handed me off to Orlando I had a hard time getting them to acknowledge my transmissions. Then finally after calling them several times I was simply told to stay clear of the class B. No one said anything about discontinuing my flight following just remain clear of the class B. So I made my way around the class B and ducked under the southern approach corridor while maintaining a watchful eye for big birds.

I realize they had no obligation to me as I was not IFR but I thought the way they ignored me was rather rude and not in the best interest of flight safety. Once I obtained my instrument rating I always filed IFR when making a long trip.

Jean
 
Further except for the fact that you have a clear cut serious violation of the regs, I'd be contacting the ATC QA person/sup. Yelling at people for ANY reason over the air is unprofessional and contrary to safety. I won't stand for it.
 
FlySince9 said:
Really? Where does it say that a vector into the Bravo automatically gives you clearance?
Click to expand...

I agree that getting a clearance (or technically "instruction" in some cases) from ATC (in charge of the airspace in question) that includes altitude and a fix or heading supersedes any magic words.
 
bahama flier said:
I had flight following from Miami and was handed off to Orlando. I checked in with Orlando after hand off,,, I was acknowledged by Orlando,,, then... I was yelled at for not being cleared into Bravo airspace.

When Orlando accepted me, I PRESUMED I was cleared although I did not specifically asked for the clearance after they accepted the hand off.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity how far from the bravo were you when Orlando acknowledged your check-in? And did your previous heading already have you going at the bravo or did you make a turn that they maybe didn't expect?
 
flyingron said:
Further except for the fact that you have a clear cut serious violation of the regs, I'd be contacting the ATC QA person/sup. Yelling at people for ANY reason over the air is unprofessional and contrary to safety. I won't stand for it.
Click to expand...

Not sure if stirring up a chit storm is a good idea when he clearly busted bravo. :dunno:
 
Kritchlow said:
But if Orlando gave you an altitude and course that took you through the B, that is indeed a Bravo clearance.
Click to expand...

No, it isn't. There was a post on this a day or two ago. There are two magic phrases that ATC is trained to use

Cleared into the Bravo
or
Cleared as Requested

If you heard neither then you did not have clearance.
 
bflynn said:
No, it isn't. There was a post on this a day or two ago. There are two magic phrases that ATC is trained to use

Cleared into the Bravo
or
Cleared as Requested

If you heard neither then you did not have clearance.
Click to expand...

BS. A heading and altitude is indeed a clearance.
 
Kritchlow said:
BS. A heading and altitude is indeed a clearance.
Click to expand...

Not from what I understand.

If the word "cleared" isn't spoken I'm not going into Bravo (VFR), just not playing that game.
 
James331 said:
Not from what I understand.

If the word "cleared" isn't spoken I'm not going into Bravo (VFR), just not playing that game.
Click to expand...

Please show me the regulation, and I will admit I'm wrong.
 
I have been given a heading and altitude from MCO and was not given the "magic phrase". I was a student out of Titusville at the time. I did not incur a penalty. I realized it after the flight, my instructor shrugged his shoulders.

At the time I agreed a heading and altitude 'infers' a clearance. ATC is supposed to say the words per their order however.

To CYA, I now make sure to ask if the "magic words" aren't used.
 
An assigned heading and altitude is a good excuse and ATC really ought to have said something or given some kind of instruction. I would think any reasonable FAA official would take this into account and not go after your ticket for this.... but...

The responsibility for making sure the aircraft is cleared lies with the pilot. Key the mic, say something... get them to either clear you or vector you.
 

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bflynn said:
No, it isn't. There was a post on this a day or two ago. There are two magic phrases that ATC is trained to use

Cleared into the Bravo
or
Cleared as Requested

If you heard neither then you did not have clearance.
Click to expand...

If you heard neither then the clearance did not use standard phraseology, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a clearance. According to FAR 1.1, a clearance is just "an authorization by air traffic control, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace".
 
Kritchlow said:
BS. A heading and altitude is indeed a clearance.
Click to expand...

Been over this before. A vector is an instruction not a clearance. A specific clearance is still required to enter the B.
 
Velocity173 said:
Been over this before. A vector is an instruction not a clearance. A specific clearance is still required to enter the B.
Click to expand...

You guys can but pick this all you want. If ATC says proceed direct XYZ at 4,000', that's a clearance in my book. I truly think everyone is over paranoid.
 
mtuomi said:
I would highly recommend going with the FAA interpretation instead of your own.
Saves alot of paperwork.
Click to expand...

Lol!!! Doesn't affect me either way. I just put my two cents in for fun. I haven't flown VFR in nearly 20 years.
 
Kritchlow said:
You guys can but pick this all you want. If ATC says proceed direct XYZ at 4,000', that's a clearance in my book. I truly think everyone is over paranoid.
Click to expand...

When was the last time you navigated VFR?
In VFR, direct XYZ at 4000 is not something you hear outside B/C airspace. I also don't think that is a "clearance" in VFR, it is an ATC instruction. FAA seems to think this way too in that letter above.
 
Maverick said:
It was a long time ago but I was making a VFR trip to Kissimmee, FL from Michigan. After a stop for fuel at Greenville-Spartanburg I headed for Kissimmee with flight following. When Daytona handed me off to Orlando I had a hard time getting them to acknowledge my transmissions. Then finally after calling them several times I was simply told to stay clear of the class B. No one said anything about discontinuing my flight following just remain clear of the class B. So I made my way around the class B and ducked under the southern approach corridor while maintaining a watchful eye for big birds.

I realize they had no obligation to me as I was not IFR but I thought the way they ignored me was rather rude and not in the best interest of flight safety. Once I obtained my instrument rating I always filed IFR when making a long trip.

Jean
Click to expand...
Wow, nice to see you back, Jean!
 
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