spiderweb
Final Approach
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Ben
In the G2000, I understand you can drag the magenta line with your finger however and to wherever you like.
Got this clearance today
- Thread starter DavidWhite
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roncachamp
Final Approach
Try using "22312" as a fix where V-64 and V-363 cross.
SoCal and LGB, as with all ATC was always fantastic with me. I was coming into LGB over Lake Arrowhead from Vegas in a T-310R smoking down out of altitude from a quick test on my way to maint. It was VFR except the LGB cloud had developed. I was solo, plane was new to me and had a 530w and MX-20 but I didn't have a Low Altitude enroute because they didn't have one in Vegas when I was leaving. So ATC calls me up and tells me LGB just went IFR. Being in severe clear I look out at Signal Hill and sure as s-t, there's the Long Beach Cloud. I ask for an IFR clearance in and he machine gunned me one of those routes that takes you all over to Gorman and was a 'victor victor victor' clearance, one of those ones that uses, IIRC V343 with the doglegged stuff in it; IOW I had about 30 waypoints to input that I would have to scroll through the MX 20 to find. 'F- this'... "310RG, tell ya what, I don't have the paper for this and I've got a radio here that there is no way I'm gonna be able to plug this in on in time, how about vectors to the ILS if it's not too much of an imposition, or I'll just stay VFR and pick up over the harbor for the ILS." "Vectors it is, come right 345 descend and maintain 6000'" No worries, no attitude, no phone number.
My favorite was flying my 310 into LGB a couple years ago for AOPA Summit (what a bad joke) and as I was rolling out the controller said "Welcome home Henning"
Turns out he was one of the guys I used to take with me 20 years ago on the "Fly a Controller" program. Apparently I have a distinctive voice.
My favorite was flying my 310 into LGB a couple years ago for AOPA Summit (what a bad joke) and as I was rolling out the controller said "Welcome home Henning"
Turns out he was one of the guys I used to take with me 20 years ago on the "Fly a Controller" program. Apparently I have a distinctive voice.
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BillTIZ
Final Approach
There is no published intersection where V363 and V64 meet.
Therein lies the rub with FMS systems.
EppyGA
Touchdown! Greaser!
Didn't work in ForeFlight
Alexb2000
En-Route
That would be cool, I'm looking forward to checking it out. I'd also like to see the ability to build unpublished holds and approaches.
Everskyward
Experimenter
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Everskyward
Ours does but I always get the cheat sheet out. We get it so infrequently that I can never remember how.
azure
Final Approach
I assume that's an internal name for the fix that's used in the ATC system? Are those names published anywhere?
On the 480, unless the database knows the waypoint name, the only way (at least, the only documented way) to define a USER wpt is via lat/long or bearing/range from another defined wpt. Because of station declination, I doubt it would work too well to use a radial/DME distance from a VOR.
roncachamp
Final Approach
I was wondering if it was included in a GPS database.
Attachments
I was at 19k
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
There is a somewhat awkward method that works but it takes some practice and to tell the truth I need this so rarely that I have to fumble my way through when it's needed. First you need to add two VORs to the flight plan that are on each of the airways that cross at the undefined intersection (intersections will also work and are required if the airway bends there). Then you need to set up one of the map pages to show airways at a relatively high range setting and use the pan function to get the cursor to the juncture of the two airways. Once the cursor is near that you reduce the range (this requires a cumbersome toggling back and forth between range and cursor control) and recenter the cursor until it's accurately co-located with the crossing of the airways.
Then it gets easy. Just hit "Mark" then "Enter" to create a new user waypoint (you might want to alter the name first), select this waypoint (important and easily missed step), then go to the flight plan and insert it between the two VORs or intersections you put in the plan back at step 1.
If you already have the first airway in the flight plan you can even skip the first part where you add VORs or intersections on the two airways.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Yup, where airways cross or penetrate a facility boundary fixes are established for Flight Data Processing purposes.
They're in the NFDC database, but I don't know how the general public could access them.
I search that number on WingX and it says something about an SAR grid and opens the map on OSH.
roncachamp
Final Approach
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Hmmm, interesting so obviously it's on some public database correctly.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Yes, but not in a particularly useful manner. You can search on the location identifier but that's the information you're seeking.
At least it gives a lat long that you can enter as a user defined way point. Again as you say, not particularly useful unless you know in advance you'll need it and set it all up.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Here's how you "fix it" in Foreflight without rubber-banding.
DANAH V363 ELB ELB/325/6 COREL V64 TRM V208 TNP EED V12 DRK
The ELB/325/6 syntax is how to do an arbitrary waypoint off of a VOR.
The far more evil syntax is the lat/long but it's what you get after rubber-banding... And adding ELB and COREL.
DANAH ELB 33.764N/117.767W COREL V64 TRM V208 TNP EED V12 DRK
DANAH V363 ELB ELB/325/6 COREL V64 TRM V208 TNP EED V12 DRK
The ELB/325/6 syntax is how to do an arbitrary waypoint off of a VOR.
The far more evil syntax is the lat/long but it's what you get after rubber-banding... And adding ELB and COREL.
DANAH ELB 33.764N/117.767W COREL V64 TRM V208 TNP EED V12 DRK
denverpilot
Tied Down
azure
Final Approach
This doesn't really work. If you zoom in, you can see that the 325 radial diverges from the airway, and 6nm puts you past V64 a little anyway.
Besides, you're not supposed to use FF for primary navigation.
Lance's method for the 480 should work -- I forgot about PAN
-- but God it would be a hassle.The G-x000 Garmins are sounding nicer and nicer. Wish I could afford one. Actually I take that back, when I bought my plane I swore I wouldn't upgrade the avionics for at least 5 years.
How often does ATC give clearances like that?
Captain
Final Approach
The bold bit is how I enter it into the FMS, except I define the intersection by radial off the two points instead of bearing DME as you did.
I'd use ELB ELB325/COREL255 COREL V64 ... (I guessed at the COREL radial rather than look it up but you get the idea)
With it exact in the FMS I'd just use my finger to drag the course in Foreflight to the approx right spot.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I didn't zoom in that close, but it's airway to airway so you're in protected airspace at least 4nm on either side of both of them. (I didn't go measure how far apart the VORs are)
With as slow as my TO/FROM flag flips, if you're slightly abeam, it's a darn good thing it's that wide, too.
Folks forget how "sloppy" VOR is compared to GPS. The airways are wide for a reason. How far off can those Nav heads be from each other in a in-flight VOR check?
Besides, you're not supposed to use FF for primary navigation.
Never said I would.
I'd fly the airway with the VOR, but since he was given this clearance on the ground, it makes sense to fix the magenta line on FF before takeoff, just so your "situational awareness" tool isn't giving you conflicting information.
Flying from one airway to another is 100% SOP in my ol' bird. In fact, I'm kinda used to it.
All the way to Arkansas the controllers kept asking me if I wanted "Vector to XXX, Direct when receiving". I turned it down once, and accepted another time. Why buck the system. (Plus it was VMC on top...). Using all available resources, I might as well beeline and set up the Nav 1 head to eventually receive something and use Nav 2 to check cross-radials to confirm the iPad's thoughts.
[/QUOTE]
Clueful older ones that notice the /A in my type do it all the time. Not always a crossing of airways, but "Intercept the DEN XXX radial outbound, until receiving YYY, then intercept Victor ZZZ, rest of course, as filed."
Clueless ones ask "What are you Direct to now" after reading VXXX on the strip in front of them. They don't have the airway system thought process in their heads... everyone has GPS. Then they issue vectors. They're not used to pilots being able to navigate the above way anymore at all.
Center controllers all seem to get it. TRACON folks are utterly confused as to why you're headed for the VOR to turn outbound on a published transition route to the approach, as filed.
I've already worn out the joke posted here a while back, but it turns out its the best and friendliest way to remind 'em...
"Unable, we're Slant Alpha, but we are vector-qualified! Looks like a heading of about 235 from here."
I've already used that silly line now three times. It actually works, and doesn't make the controller cranky with just an "unable".
Then there's something wrong in Foreflight. The 325 radial can't diverge from the airway. That is what defines it.
As for the 480, I'd be tempted to enter it as
DANA V363 JOGIT TUSTI V64...
You then just FLYLEG the TUSTI-COREL when it shows you close.
(If I was going to do it with the autopilot, I'd just hit HDG when close, do the FLYLEG, and tell the autopilot to intercept).
Captain
Final Approach
Sure it can. Earth curvature and changing variation along the airway do cause the course to change. When you over lay a GPS track over an airway the numbers don't match up exactly. Close, but not exact.
Say the airway is 027 off ABC VOR and the first fix is CAPTN 80 miles away. When I go from ABC to CAPTN it may be 024 to 030 to get there and that's normal.
No it CAN NOT. The earth's curvature and variation does NOT have any effect on the airway. The airway is ALREADY defined as a VOR radial which is a straight line in space. The airway is the 325 RADIAL from ELB until you get to the changeover point (which is JOGIT in this case). It can't be anything else, this is how it is defined. A straight line form ELB to JOGIT is the 325 RADIAL
If your line on your echart or GPS diverges, that is a defect in your system.
You are confusing the heading to fly a course with the course definition itself.
Yes, the bearing (both to true and magnetic north) will change along the course, but the radial will remain the same.
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Captain
Final Approach
I am most certianly NOT confusing heading with bearing.
The radial defines the airway. Okay so far. Dial up 325 from ELB on your VOR and track it. It's close enough to keep you within 4 miles (to a point). BUT overlay that same course to JOGIT in a GPS or FMS and it will be off a degree or two and its because of earth curvature and magnetic variation along the course.
Want proof? Y'all know I like to make examples by using the extreme...
Dial up the 180 radial of any VOR and fly for ever away from the station. At some point you'll be flying North. This is earth curvature. Draw a circle around the globe and start going NorthEast. Go all the way around and see how the course changes.
Every single FMS I've ever flown has a degree or two difference when overlaying a course from any VOR to any fix on the airway from what's charted. They aren't all broke.
Is a VOR radial a Rhumb Line or Great Circle? 
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
22312 - hmmm... a zip code in Northern Virginia... 
While I can only remember one airway/airway clearance (w/o an intersection name, and I think the clearance was "Vxxx until it intersects Vyyy, then Vyyy"), I have received clearances multiple times that involve something like "Direct Elkins, Elkins xxx radial until it intersects V128, V128....". Seems to me that I've received that kind of clearance in ZDC (similar to above) and also in lieu of a DP/SID on departure out of Wichita. Easier just to fly using the VOR than try and set it up in a Garmin.
While I can only remember one airway/airway clearance (w/o an intersection name, and I think the clearance was "Vxxx until it intersects Vyyy, then Vyyy"), I have received clearances multiple times that involve something like "Direct Elkins, Elkins xxx radial until it intersects V128, V128....". Seems to me that I've received that kind of clearance in ZDC (similar to above) and also in lieu of a DP/SID on departure out of Wichita. Easier just to fly using the VOR than try and set it up in a Garmin.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Is a VOR radial a Rhumb Line or Great Circle?
Great circle, as a VOR radial is effectively a plane that would pass through the center of the Earth if not for the Earth itself.
Can you fly a GC route on a heading of 325?
roncachamp
Final Approach
Sure. For a while.
Alexb2000
En-Route
This is an interesting topic. I have noticed the exact same thing, there always seems to be a difference VOR to GPS. I generally just use the GPS since mixing them doesn't always work smoothly. I always just attributed that to VOR magnetic field shift.
You're speaking gibberish. A VOR bearing is a straight line and is unaffected by magentic variation (and the earth's curvature is largely immaterial over the distances we're talking about). I do this for a living. My software is used to deliver precision ordinance to the target which is a damn site more precise than trying to remain with a four mile airway 10 miles from the station.
OF course the course changes. I already told you that except in degenerate cases, the bearing along a straight line compared to any other arbitrary point (be it the the a pole or whatever) changes. However, that doesn't change the fact that Every point along that segment of V363 is on the 225 radial (the needle will be centered). If your FMS shows the line elsewhere it is just plane wrong.
Note there is a difference in what the FMS (will show as the bearing to the station) and what RADIAL you are on. These are different concepts. When someone says that they are 6 miles out on the 225 radial they ARE ON THE AIRWAY. They aren't saying they are at a 225 bearing to ELB, they are saying they are ON THE 225 RADIAL. Do you understand the difference? Apparently not.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ah, something for me to try in the G1000 sim... haven't tried entering a manual hold, nor know if it's possible other than pressing SUSP and flying it manually. Of course, if it's the last fix on your Flight Plan, SUSP isn't going to do much!
Another thing for me to test on the sim; it's been a couple weeks on my to-do list after my IFR departure for Gastons, where I received this clearance route:
RV TTT074 TRISS TTT074 TXK244 TXK
As you describe below, I flew raw needles for the TTT074 - TXK244 route, as there's not a fix at those locations. I read the manual later and found that I can add a User Waypoint as the intersection of two radials, but I think you have to do that FIRST before you can use it in a Flight Plan route. I don't think there's a way to do it "on the fly" while entering a flight plan. Another thing for me to try today.
Are you with Chautauqua or American Eagle?
azure
Final Approach
The question is whether the FMS or FF uses the local magnetic variation to define radials, or the station declination. My guess is it uses magnetic variation (at least FF probably does). The airway is defined in terms of station declination. I've seen VORs around here where there was a 4 degree difference between the station's compass rose on the chart and actual current magnetic north. They don't recalibrate VORs all that often, and the magnetic north pole keeps moving. A few years back I asked about this and someone explained that if they did, they'd either have to move the airways and intersections or define them in terms of new radials, too much expense to be worth it. Makes sense to me.
As Nate says, there's not enough divergence in this case to put you outside the airway boundaries, because it's only a 1.5 degree difference and the intersection is close to the VOR. But I'd still be loth to use that technique in general.
Alexb2000
En-Route
Ah, something for me to try in the G1000 sim... haven't tried entering a manual hold, nor know if it's possible other than pressing SUSP and flying it manually. Of course, if it's the last fix on your Flight Plan, SUSP isn't going to do much!
Another thing for me to test on the sim; it's been a couple weeks on my to-do list after my IFR departure for Gastons, where I received this clearance route:
RV TTT074 TRISS TTT074 TXK244 TXK
As you describe below, I flew raw needles for the TTT074 - TXK244 route, as there's not a fix at those locations. I read the manual later and found that I can add a User Waypoint as the intersection of two radials, but I think you have to do that FIRST before you can use it in a Flight Plan route. I don't think there's a way to do it "on the fly" while entering a flight plan. Another thing for me to try today.
Are you with Chautauqua or American Eagle?
You can't build an unpublished hold on the G1000 (I wish). Maybe G2000.
I have tried that user waypoint thing, but it's just to much of a pain since you have to use LAT/LONG to define it. On the G1000 I just fly the first radial on Nav 1, have Nav 2 on the intersecting radial (TXK). Then switch from Nav1 to heading mode prior to the intercept, CDI to Nav2, then rearm the NAV function so it will intercept automatically and I don't have to sit there and watch it.
If you come up with a better way let me know.
I guess you could rack it into 2 flight plans, capture the crossing radial on the NAV set needle and then switch plans in the box...
Actually, some VORs were never aligned to precise magnetic north even without having to worry about the poles wandering.
Captain
Final Approach
I understand fully.
I feel like I'm being punished by having to tolerate these snarky attacks while others fell slighted by the most innocent thing and everyone runs to their defense.
Whatever, just an observation.