Getting the shaft, need help wrapping up PPL

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Jamie Kirk

Line Up and Wait
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JamieK
Here is a long story but I’ll cliff note it at the end for those TLDR.

Started flying with a local school in August 2018 and right before I was signed off to solo at 14 hours I lost my CFI as he got very ill and was out for 6-8 weeks. During that time the school had no plan, kept me flying with different instructors 2-3x a week and I wish I knew then what I knew now but I basically threw thousands away.

When my CFI came back in January I was over 50 in hours and he was thinking we will be doing checkride prep. Nope, I haven’t even soloed and done nothing but pattern work for 50 hours. No XC, no night, no simulated instrument and ZERO ground work.

So in January I actually start being a student and not just an ATM for the school. CFI tried to rush me to be checkride ready in weeks, wasn’t possible. And then he had to have an operation which took him out again. A new CFI stepped in and he had a plan and got me scheduled with a checkride in February.

For the checkride it ended in a continuance. This was in mid February and now it turns to crap. Due to weather, work and the DPE it keeps getting pushed back. DPE is scheduled for a procedure mid March and will be out 2 weeks, not acceptable to me. It’s costing me over $1,000 a week to stay at the top of my skill, I decide to personally reach out to other DPEs and schools to wrap this up.

Apparently this is the worst thing anyone can do. I called a few schools who then gave me DPE contact info and I reached out to them. Told the DPEs my circumstances and about the continuance and they asked for my FTN number which I sent over. One of the DPEs reached out to my original DPEs because the paperwork didn’t make sense. Now apparently I stirred the hornets nest.

Original DPE filled out the continuance wrong, he marked items completed that were not complete. According to the continuance I successfully passed the checkride which confused the other DPE which now made the original DPE have a talk with his FSDO about his paperwork. He then called the school which then contacted me.

School said it was against their policy for me to check with another DPE about a checkride without their approval. They only allow 2 DPEs for students to use. Now the DPE is very upset because his paperwork error was made aware to the FSDO so he light a fire with the school. The school told me now that basically I’m done, can’t fly with them anymore and the DPE won’t finish my checkride. He has also since gone into IACRA and completely edited my continuance, what I was given as recent does not match what I was given on the date of my continuance.

Called other DPE, he won’t help either. Apparently I upset the secret good ol boys club. Wonderful.

So here I am, 80 hours in with no school and no DPE and a continuance that expires and all my endorsements expire within 2 weeks.

Cliff notes:
Started training for PPL
Lost CFI
School has no plan and waste my time and money
Finally get checkride which ends in continuance
DPE filled out checkride paperwork wrong
FSDO finds out
DPE and school shun me
I’m all alone
 
Wow, the only thing I can think of is find another CFI. Give him your logbook and discuss what has happened. Have the new CFI sign you off for the check ride and have fun...:)
edit: that is after you fly with the new CFI and prove your abilities as a PPL.
 
Couldn't hurt to talk to the FSDO. They may or may not help, I don't really have any experience dealing with one so I wouldn't know.

What I do know is you don't need a flight school to get instruction or take a checkride. Under part 61 you just need to check off all the requirements for hours and such, which you've probably already got and find a CFI who you can fly with and demonstrate proficiency to so he will sign you off for a checkride with a different DPE. It will probably take some more hours because you'll be starting off with a new CFI who doesn't know you and will need you to prove yourself and probably teach you a few things his way but it shouldn't take too terribly long if you were already good enough to be signed off once. You can find independent CFIs all over the place, just pick some nearby airports and cold call their FBOs, if they don't have someone on staff they probably know someone they can refer you to.

I have a PPL and Instrument rating and I've never been to anything like a formal flight school. Just met up with CFIs and got my hours/endorsements
 
If you post where you are based, people might chime in with a name or two.
 
Jared V said:
what do you mean by this? and something doesn't sound right...is that the whole story?
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Well trying to fly at minimum an hour 3x plus a week to keep skills up at $185 an hour just for the plane adds up fast.

Everything doesn’t sound right but I see why people never finish. That’s why I said I wish I knew then what I know now.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Well trying to fly at minimum an hour 3x plus a week to keep skills up at $185 an hour just for the plane adds up fast.

Everything doesn’t sound right but I see why people never finish. That’s why I said I wish I knew then what I know now.
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What part of the country are you in? Around here wet rentals on a 172 are in the 115-140/hr range. Instructors are $35-60/hr. I'd really shop around at nearby airports.... it might be you just live in an expensive area and those are the prices but it seems high to me.
 
cowman said:
What part of the country are you in? Around here wet rentals on a 172 are in the 115-140/hr range. Instructors are $35-60/hr. I'd really shop around at nearby airports.... it might be you just live in an expensive area and those are the prices but it seems high to me.
Click to expand...

Southern CA, plane is a G1000 DA40. Yes, it’s high.
 
I thought you'd bought your own plane, and were looking for a freelance CFI to finish training in it?

It does seem clear that your relationship to this school comes with a lot of baggage and bad vibes from your past experience. However you proceed from here (and I'm sure others could advise you better on the details!), I would try to keep your focus on the current problem, work the problem through civil conversations, and keep it separate from all the stuff from the past. I'm not sure what else to say... if you still have your own plane, then there are even more options than most students have.

Best of luck,
 
kath said:
I thought you'd bought your own plane, and were looking for a freelance CFI to finish training in it?

It does seem clear that your relationship to this school comes with a lot of baggage and bad vibes from your past experience. However you proceed from here (and I'm sure others could advise you better on the details!), I would try to keep your focus on the current problem, work the problem through civil conversations, and keep it separate from all the stuff from the past. I'm not sure what else to say... if you still have your own plane, then there are even more options than most students have.

Best of luck,
Click to expand...

I do own a plane but finding a CFI the insurance will sign off was impossible. I was able to find 1 but he is so busy I have only been able to get roughly 8 hours in it.

I have had a horrible experience with the school but I keep sticking it out because I always feel I’m just 1-2 months away from
Finishing. Just finish, say goodbye and move on. But every time I get close I have more and more issues with the school, CFI getting sick, their plane and now their DPE.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Southern CA, plane is a G1000 DA40. Yes, it’s high.
Click to expand...

Ahh, well for that it sounds a little more reasonable but yeah still high.

Hang in there, man. I swear just about everyone I've talked to on the road to getting their PPL seems to run into a stumbling block at the 11th hour like this. Usually some combination of conflict with a CFI/FBO/School/weather. It's a pain but hang in there, there are plenty of paths to victory here you just have to find it.
 
cowman said:
Ahh, well for that it sounds a little more reasonable but yeah still high.

Hang in there, man. I swear just about everyone I've talked to on the road to getting their PPL seems to run into a stumbling block at the 11th hour like this. Usually some combination of conflict with a CFI/FBO/School/weather. It's a pain but hang in there, there are plenty of paths to victory here you just have to find it.
Click to expand...

Non quitting, just frustrating. I’ve spent over $15,000 at the school, I should have changed schools in December when the issues started coming to light. But I thought I was close and said I should rough it out.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Here is a long story but I’ll cliff note it at the end for those TLDR.

Started flying with a local school in August 2018 and right before I was signed off to solo at 14 hours I lost my CFI as he got very ill and was out for 6-8 weeks. During that time the school had no plan, kept me flying with different instructors 2-3x a week and I wish I knew then what I knew now but I basically threw thousands away.

When my CFI came back in January I was over 50 in hours and he was thinking we will be doing checkride prep. Nope, I haven’t even soloed and done nothing but pattern work for 50 hours. No XC, no night, no simulated instrument and ZERO ground work.

So in January I actually start being a student and not just an ATM for the school. CFI tried to rush me to be checkride ready in weeks, wasn’t possible. And then he had to have an operation which took him out again. A new CFI stepped in and he had a plan and got me scheduled with a checkride in February.

For the checkride it ended in a continuance. This was in mid February and now it turns to crap. Due to weather, work and the DPE it keeps getting pushed back. DPE is scheduled for a procedure mid March and will be out 2 weeks, not acceptable to me. It’s costing me over $1,000 a week to stay at the top of my skill, I decide to personally reach out to other DPEs and schools to wrap this up.

Apparently this is the worst thing anyone can do. I called a few schools who then gave me DPE contact info and I reached out to them. Told the DPEs my circumstances and about the continuance and they asked for my FTN number which I sent over. One of the DPEs reached out to my original DPEs because the paperwork didn’t make sense. Now apparently I stirred the hornets nest.

Original DPE filled out the continuance wrong, he marked items completed that were not complete. According to the continuance I successfully passed the checkride which confused the other DPE which now made the original DPE have a talk with his FSDO about his paperwork. He then called the school which then contacted me.

School said it was against their policy for me to check with another DPE about a checkride without their approval. They only allow 2 DPEs for students to use. Now the DPE is very upset because his paperwork error was made aware to the FSDO so he light a fire with the school. The school told me now that basically I’m done, can’t fly with them anymore and the DPE won’t finish my checkride. He has also since gone into IACRA and completely edited my continuance, what I was given as recent does not match what I was given on the date of my continuance.

Called other DPE, he won’t help either. Apparently I upset the secret good ol boys club. Wonderful.

So here I am, 80 hours in with no school and no DPE and a continuance that expires and all my endorsements expire within 2 weeks.

Cliff notes:
Started training for PPL
Lost CFI
School has no plan and waste my time and money
Finally get checkride which ends in continuance
DPE filled out checkride paperwork wrong
FSDO finds out
DPE and school shun me
I’m all alone
Click to expand...
Not sure if this is an option for you or not...... stay away from ALL flight schools. Stay FAR AWAY. Find a flying club and join it, then get an instructor who is known to other club members and finish your training that way. Flying schools are a RIPOFF.
 
Walboy said:
An overly broad generalization. SOME flying schools may be a ripoff.
Click to expand...
Compared to learning to fly in a flying club, they are all ripoffs. In addition, many of the CFIs who teach at flying schools are just time builders. The best instructors are those that teach flying because they love to teach people to fly.....you generally will not find those individuals at flight schools.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Southern CA, plane is a G1000 DA40. Yes, it’s high.
Click to expand...

I know and have flown with a few CFI's at El Monte Great guys.,.... If you are in that area let me know and I can PM there contact info.
 
What kind of plane do you own, and why is it difficult to get a CFI on the insurance?

If you are pretty much ready to go there may be another option.
 
EdFred said:
What kind of plane do you own, and why is it difficult to get a CFI on the insurance?

If you are pretty much ready to go there may be another option.
Click to expand...

Commander 112, Insurance requires someone with at least 10 hours in type.
 
What if an instructor brings their own insurance because they own their own aircraft, and their policy covers them in any aircraft they fly?
 
I’ll assume you’ve checked, but my policy has an “open pilot clause” that allows anyone that meets the minimum to be PIC, but it also states that an A&P and CFI are also allowed as long as they are checking out for maint or instructing you...I don’t believe the time in type requirement applies to the A&P and CFI...could be wrong, will check tonight.
 
EdFred said:
What if an instructor brings their own insurance because they own their own aircraft, and their policy covers them in any aircraft they fly?
Click to expand...

Works perfectly, that option has never been offered. Every CFI I have spoken too wanted to be added to my policy before instruction could begin.
 
Rgbeard said:
He seems to be dodging the question on location.

Southern California could mean anything from Santa Barbara to Chula Vista. Who knows.
Click to expand...

Greater LA area, not very interested in disclosing the school since the FSDO is now involved.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I’ll assume you’ve checked, but my policy has an “open pilot clause” that allows anyone that meets the minimum to be PIC, but it also states that an A&P and CFI are also allowed as long as they are checking out for maint or instructing you...I don’t believe the time in type requirement applies to the A&P and CFI...could be wrong, will check tonight.
Click to expand...

My open pilot clause specifically states any pilot that meets the following requirements:
10 hours in type

It does not say anything about an A&P or CFI. I will email my broker.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Works perfectly, that option has never been offered. Every CFI I have spoken too wanted to be added to my policy before instruction could begin.
Click to expand...

Man, if I wasn't already booked solid with trips this year, I'd say fly me out there, let me crash on your couch, we'll knock it out in a couple days, and I'll sign ya off. $0/hr.
 
EdFred said:
Man, if I wasn't already booked solid with trips this year, I'd say fly me out there, let me crash on your couch, we'll knock it out in a couple days, and I'll sign ya off. $0/hr.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't let ya do it for free and I'd give you a bed and 3 warm meals a day :)

I called 3 other local schools/CFI who advertise as come to you. They all stated they must be added to my insurance.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I wouldn't let ya do it for free and I'd give you a bed and 3 warm meals a day :)

I called 3 other local schools/CFI who advertise as come to you. They all stated they must be added to my insurance.
Click to expand...

As a named insured or will a CFI clause work?
 
DPE screwed up the paperwork.?? IACRA paperwork no longer matches.?? Are you suggesting the DPE went and intentionally falsified information on the IACRA after he entered information previously.??

DPE problem, you didn't cause it. Visit the local FSDO and inform them of your experience. Let them help the first DPE fix the little paperwork problem that he made.

School said it was against their ''policy'' for you to check with another DPE about a checkride without their approval.?? Ask to see their policy book. Ask them to show you where what you did violates and local, state or federal regulations.
 
Zeldman said:
DPE screwed up the paperwork.?? IACRA paperwork no longer matches.?? Are you suggesting the DPE went and intentionally falsified information on the IACRA after he entered information previously.??

DPE problem, you didn't cause it. Visit the local FSDO and inform them of your experience. Let them help the first DPE fix the little paperwork problem that he made.

School said it was against their ''policy'' for you to check with another DPE about a checkride without their approval.?? Ask to see their policy book. Ask them to show you where what you did violates and local, state or federal regulations.
Click to expand...

I do not want to bash, assume nor cause anymore issues than I apparently already have. I learned real fast that there is a good ol boys club and you don't upset the good ol boys or they make your process more difficult.

Checkride ended in Continuance
DPE filled out continuance paperwork which showed we completed sections 1-9 successfully when we did not. I have the original Continuance paperwork that shows this
DPE and school could not get me in to finish for almost a month, I didn't want to wait so I called other schools/DPEs to try and find an open spot in the next week or two
I sent FTN number and continuance paperwork to DPE
Continuance paperwork didn't look correct since it says I successfully passed items 1-9. New DPE called FSDO and original DPE to figure out the problem since it shows all items completed
Original DPE had to tell FSDO he incorrectly filled out the Continuance paperwork
Original DPE did not like that the FSDO reprimanded him on paperwork and called the school
School then informs me I broke their rules, the original DPE will not finish my checkride and informs me I now must go elsewhere

I called the DPE and he would not answer. I left a message, no return call yet. According to my CFI the school solely uses 2 DPEs, my assumption is that my $800 checkride is that expensive because the school or CFI gets a kickback. CFI said I had no right to look elsewhere and that his endorsement was not for any other DPE.
 
EdFred said:
Uh, there is nothing in any checkride endorsement I've ever given or received that says you must use a certain DPE. Something seriously shady going on there.
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There isn't, I have calls into the FSDO with these questions.

My assumptions (THESE ARE ASSUMPTIONS!)
I upset the DPE because his error was brought to light with the FSDO
DPE devotes himself to the school for all their checkrides
DPE then lights up the school and says he will not finish my checkride
School is a coward and is afraid to lose their DPE and finds it easier to just take his side and tells me to go away
 
If everything you said is factual, that definitely sounds like whats going on.

If I knew we had 3 good weather days, I'd make a long weekend out of it.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
There isn't, I have calls into the FSDO with these questions.

My assumptions (THESE ARE ASSUMPTIONS!)
I upset the DPE because his error was brought to light with the FSDO
DPE devotes himself to the school for all their checkrides
DPE then lights up the school and says he will not finish my checkride
School is a coward and is afraid to lose their DPE and finds it easier to just take his side and tells me to go away
Click to expand...
For the most part, probably accurate.
 
EdFred said:
If everything you said is factual, that definitely sounds like whats going on.

If I knew we had 3 good weather days, I'd make a long weekend out of it.
Click to expand...

I can't get anyone to call me back and when I just went to login to get my accounting to tally up what I have paid the school they locked my account.

I called CFI and the DPE, no answer and no calls returned.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
There isn't, I have calls into the FSDO with these questions.

My assumptions (THESE ARE ASSUMPTIONS!)
I upset the DPE because his error was brought to light with the FSDO
DPE devotes himself to the school for all their checkrides
DPE then lights up the school and says he will not finish my checkride
School is a coward and is afraid to lose their DPE and finds it easier to just take his side and tells me to go away
Click to expand...
You forgot:
School figures they have gotten all the money out of you that they're going to, and there's now no reason to do anything further for you.
 
Definitely call the FSDO and get someone to look into this. A call to the BBB, or whatever California might have to look into this might also be in order.
 
DaleB said:
You forgot:
School figures they have gotten all the money out of you that they're going to, and there's now no reason to do anything further for you.
Click to expand...

Yea, good point. Didn't think of that
 
Sorry to hear what happened to you.
Have your tried Mark Boss (DPE) out of VNY? He doesn't care what CFI signs you off, he cares about whether you can pass the CR or not.

Unless... it was Mark Boss who did this to you, although I hope not, I got to know him as a straight up guy.

"CFI said I had no right to look elsewhere and that his endorsement was not for any other DPE." - this is wrong on so many levels.
 
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