Getting Multi in...a Skymaster?

flyingpreacher

flyingpreacher

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So, I'm poking around Dan Howard Aircraft Sales today because a local 210 is listed there.
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Pass on the Aeronca
Pass on the Mooney
Pass on the...Hold on, let me look at this goofy skymaster again.
Google Cessna Skymaster
Wait, there's a little prop in the back?
Wikipedia Skymaster "The Cessna Skymaster is an American twin-engine..."

So you're telling me, I could get my multi in this, do my single engine ops with the rear engine failed, and basically just fly a single engine high wing?

Something smells fishy about this. Talk to me...
 
There is a special Centerline Thrust rating for the MixMaster (aka the Push me-Pull you). It’s an easy rating to get (finding an instructor is the hard part). It seems more than one pilot has taken off with the rear engine not spinning, so the training seems to center on “start the rear engine first.”

You’d still need a multi-engine rating to fly other twins.

While never popular in civil aviation, the O2 was quite well-regarded by pilot I knew who flew them in Vietnam. I aspired to move up from the L-19 Birddog, but it never happened. Frankly, I think the 337 is a brilliant, if quirky, design. The early models were fixed gear. Rear engine over heating & rear prop gravel damage were the faults I remember. Pros include going anywhere a Cessna 182 would go.

The sound of a Skymaster is quite distinctive.
 
rhkennerly said:
There is a special Centerline Thrust rating for the MixMaster (aka the Push me-Pull you). It’s an easy rating to get (finding an instructor is the hard part). It seems more than one pilot has taken off with the rear engine not spinning, so the training seems to center on “start the rear engine first.”

You’d still need a multi-engine rating to fly other twins.

While never popular in civil aviation, the O2 was quite well-regarded by pilot I knew who flew them in Vietnam. I aspired to move up from the L-19 Birddog, but it never happened. Frankly, I think the 337 is a brilliant, if quirky, design. The early models were fixed gear. Rear engine over heating & rear prop gravel damage were the faults I remember. Pros include going anywhere a Cessna 182 would go.

The sound of a Skymaster is quite distinctive.
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Not a special rating, a multi-engine rating with a center-line thrust limitation if you take your ride in the skymaster. And the limitation can be removed with an abbreviated checkride.
 
Nothing fishy. Doing your multi engine rating checkride in a Cessna 336/337 will result in a centerline thrust restriction on your pilot certificate, limiting you to basically only flying skymasters. Most skymaster pilots got their multi in something with engines on the wings so they can fly a variety of multi engine aircraft.

Also, the rear prop on a skymaster is the same size as the front prop, both 76" diameter.
 
Clip4 said:
The configuration of inline propellers is not very efficient.
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I imagine that is true. OTOH, the fixed-gear 336 was introduced in 1965 to fix a specific problem, twin crashes by pilots moving up from singles. I flew with an instructor recently who derided pilots getting twin instruction in the Diamond DA42 because it was so docile on a single engine that students weren’t getting a real “twin” experience. Modern twins have evolved considerably since 1965.

We were coming out of the era of fat-winged, big-engined, draggy beasts, like the Cessna T-50 & the old recip Beech King & Queen Airs, Beech 18s, piper Apaches, underpowered twin Comanches, Dukes & Dutchesses. All could be yaw monsters in the wrong hands. Engines were less reliable. Counter rotating props were a novelty.

Better wing & engine design, CR props, but especially, better training turned out to the answer. But the MixMaster was an interesting take on solving a specific problem.
 
No direct experience, but that back engine looks like a real PITA to work on.

My cfii friend has some experience in them. Rear engine getting hot was an issue.

I always thought they were cool, but I like anything weird.
 
They fly great from what I understand, but the rear prop is extremely prone to FOD. Take offs are front engine first until you have some ground speed, then roll in the rear engine. Aaaaaand the opposite of that on landing.

Also, I think they have unique engine out procedures as it’s extremely difficult to know one has lost an engine (for example in cruise).
 
Jim K said:
No direct experience, but that back engine looks like a real PITA to work on.

My cfii friend has some experience in them. Rear engine getting hot was an issue.

I always thought they were cool, but I like anything weird.
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it is. They have a reputation as a maintenance hog, especially because all the systems ended up back there. Otoh, there is an active owners group & a large number of mods are available, so a heavily modded airplane could be a “find.”

The boxy cabin & rear door mod makes the Skymaster an good load hauler for bulky stuff. Some wing cuffs, stall fences, & such would make it a great backcountry cabin or fish camp plane. I see a few in short haul cargo work.
 
If one does their multi in a T-2 Buckeye you’ll get the same centerline thrust restriction…

It’s a “thing”, just rather uncommon.

I think the 336/337s are super cool. Like geared engines, and other things, just different. Nothing particularly bad if you pay proper attention to the proper things, it’s just that finding someone to teach you the proper things is not the easiest.

Losing an engine and only being able to tell by the gages isn’t unusual either, like in the world of MD-88s. It’s far away from you, can’t hear it, blah blah. But it IS a VERY unusual thing in the world of Cessnas (and other light civil twins). And so on…
 
rhkennerly said:
There is a special Centerline Thrust rating for the MixMaster (aka the Push me-Pull you). It’s an easy rating to get (finding an instructor is the hard part). It seems more than one pilot has taken off with the rear engine not spinning, so the training seems to center on “start the rear engine first.”

You’d still need a multi-engine rating to fly other twins.

While never popular in civil aviation, the O2 was quite well-regarded by pilot I knew who flew them in Vietnam. I aspired to move up from the L-19 Birddog, but it never happened. Frankly, I think the 337 is a brilliant, if quirky, design. The early models were fixed gear. Rear engine over heating & rear prop gravel damage were the faults I remember. Pros include going anywhere a Cessna 182 would go.

The sound of a Skymaster is quite distinctive.
Click to expand...
not just for the 337. guys coming out of the military that only flew the centerline fighters also get the restriction. i would guess there were guys that came out of fighters, went to the airlines and flew the mad dog and never did get the restriction removed.
 
unsafervguy said:
not just for the 337. guys coming out of the military that only flew the centerline fighters also get the restriction. i would guess there were guys that came out of fighters, went to the airlines and flew the mad dog and never did get the restriction removed.
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The MD-88 (DC9) is not limited to centerline thrust. Requires a regular multi engine rating to fly.
 
Doc Holliday said:
The MD-88 (DC9) is not limited to centerline thrust. Requires a regular multi engine rating to fly.
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thans doc, i stand corrected, i thought it was considered centerline thrust by the faa. you made me dig deeper to find out why, here what i found.
For FAA purposes, a multiengine airplane with a minimum stall speed higher than Vmca is considered to be centerline thrust. The location of the engines is not a consideration. The DC-9 and B-727 are not centerline thrust airplanes.
 
I just mentioned it can be hard to tell you lost an engine in a MD-88. And it can be! Or worse, going from 2 to 1 in a 727.
 
So… can you do single engine stuff in a 337?

I know guys who COULD NOT get a CFI (military competency) because they flew T2s. Instead they got MEI, centerline thrust. Exactly not a useful thing!

Some FSDOs saw the futility of it and issued CFIs to those guys, AND MEI centerline thrust.

It’s ALL administrative. I got a CFI having taught kids how to drop bombs in a A4, one motor. Not exactly useful experience for teaching someone how to fly a Cessna 150!
 
unsafervguy said:
not just for the 337. guys coming out of the military that only flew the centerline fighters also get the restriction. i would guess there were guys that came out of fighters, went to the airlines and flew the mad dog and never did get the restriction removed.
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Military equivalents no longer get centerline-thrust limitations.
 
unsafervguy said:
thans doc, i stand corrected, i thought it was considered centerline thrust by the faa. you made me dig deeper to find out why, here what i found.
For FAA purposes, a multiengine airplane with a minimum stall speed higher than Vmca is considered to be centerline thrust. The location of the engines is not a consideration. The DC-9 and B-727 are not centerline thrust airplanes.
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Hmm. Don't Seminoles have a higher stall than Vmca?
 
Being a believer in the Cessna 336/337 aircraft,there are several points to consider.as already stated . The 336/337 qualify for center line thrust multi rating. If the airplane hasn’t been well maintained it could get quite expensive. Also the insurance company’s are not very favorable to the aircraft. The rates are usually high if you can get it insured. I tried to get quotes on a 336 fixed gear and only one company would offer insurance at over 4K for low hull value. I have a multi rating with over 900 hours in multi engine airplanes.
 
Tools said:
If one does their multi in a T-2 Buckeye you’ll get the same centerline thrust restriction…
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Also T-38. And any jet with fuselage mounted engines. So if you did your multi in a Lear, Citation, Gulfstream, MD-88, you would still have a CLT restriction.
 
unsafervguy said:
thans doc, i stand corrected, i thought it was considered centerline thrust by the faa. you made me dig deeper to find out why, here what i found.
For FAA purposes, a multiengine airplane with a minimum stall speed higher than Vmca is considered to be centerline thrust. The location of the engines is not a consideration. The DC-9 and B-727 are not centerline thrust airplanes.
Click to expand...

This came up on AVSIG a lot of years ago, and two people who were FAA employees stated that any fuselage mounted engines WERE CLT.

This could have changed, but it was the case in the 90s.

Oh, and the GA-7 Cougar is not CLT and the Vmc is lower than Vso
 
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Doc Holliday said:
The “OWT” and myths are coming in fast and furious. ;)

“No experience, but…..,”. “I heard”…..”I have a friend”………:eek::rolleyes:
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And I heard from a couple different Skymaster owners that the maintenance isn’t all that bad, that the rear engine doesn’t overheat, and that the landing gear maintenance is no worse than any other retract, you just need to keep it clean and maintain it by the book.
 
Here is the FAA definition:

REMOVAL OF LIMITED TO CENTER THRUST LIMITATION. The “Limited to Center Thrust” limitation is issued to applicants who complete a practical test for the AMEL or AMES rating in an aircraft that does not have a manufacturer’s published VMC. To remove the “Limited to Center Thrust” limitation, the applicant must complete a practical test composed of certain specific multiengine tasks. Those tasks are identified for the removal of “Limited to Center Thrust” in the current edition of the ACS or PTS appropriate to the certificate level sought. An applicant may use an FSTD that is representative of a multiengine airplane that has a manufacturer’s published VMC and used in accordance with a program approved for a 14 CFR part 142 certificate holder.
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If you do a quick search you will see military pilots not being able to get the CLT restriction removed for flying any of the twin engine military fighters. Even though many of those aircraft do have a statement in the Dash 1 with a Warning that operating a low airspeed with one engine at full power and the other not operating or at idle, could cause loss of control. But no published speed. T-38 is CLT (every USAF pilot that gets their Commercial MEL based on AF time gets CLT). I have seen reports of F-15 also being limited to CLT.

What is the Vmc of a DC-9? Is there a published speed?
 
Pinecone said:
You can argue with Rick Cremer of the FAA.

He posted the relevant standards at that time.
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i don’t need to go argue with anyone. You failed to post the document to back up your claims and resorted to silly name dropping in hopes of bolstering your ridiculous assumption.
 
Pinecone said:
Here is the FAA definition:



If you do a quick search you will see military pilots not being able to get the CLT restriction removed for flying any of the twin engine military fighters. Even though many of those aircraft do have a statement in the Dash 1 with a Warning that operating a low airspeed with one engine at full power and the other not operating or at idle, could cause loss of control. But no published speed. T-38 is CLT (every USAF pilot that gets their Commercial MEL based on AF time gets CLT). I have seen reports of F-15 also being limited to CLT.

What is the Vmc of a DC-9? Is there a published speed?
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You clearly don’t understand the topic at hand and are trying to intermix two different things based upon your lack of knowledge in the subject area.

You falsely claimed “And any jet with fuselage mounted engines. So if you did your multi in a Lear, Citation, Gulfstream, MD-88, you would still have a CLT restriction ” which is laughable on its face.

Yes, the 8900.1 still references various military types considered Center Line Thrust. You are trying to inject something with no basis in fact.
 
Doc Holliday said:
i don’t need to go argue with anyone. You failed to post the document to back up your claims and resorted to silly name dropping in hopes of bolstering your ridiculous assumption.
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Not to mention that none of the transport category aircraft he initially mentioned are centerline thrust. All of those aircraft require a center line thrust restriction to be removed. Plus. I actually was certified for an initial certificate in one of his example airframes and I never had a centerline thrust restriction.

Ifs like arguing with a rock.
 
I didn't see you post anything from the FAA.

I am going by a discussion with an person who was well up in the FAA in that area at the time.

I did post the criteria from the FAA for removal of CLT, which states that it is CLT if it does not have a published Vmc.

So what is the Vmc for the DC-9? Or Lear? I do not fly them, so have no idea.
 
Pinecone said:
I didn't see you post anything from the FAA.
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The current Order 8900.1 is very clear on the matter. And I believe the Order 8900.2 addresses it as well.

Pinecone said:
I am going by a discussion with an person who was well up in the FAA in that area at the time.
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Meaningless. Unless that person put out a Notice or Policy Letter on a FAA Letterhead and signed it, it's just an opinion, nothing more.

Pinecone said:
I did post the criteria from the FAA for removal of CLT, which states that it is CLT if it does not have a published Vmc.
Click to expand...

And.........?

Pinecone said:
So what is the Vmc for the DC-9? Or Lear? I do not fly them, so have no idea.
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Not sure for those two, but the Gulfstream GIV has a VMC on the ground of 111 and in flight of 104. And it has tail mounted engines.

And it's definitely not a CLT aircraft. A V1 cut will result in the rudder pedal all the way to the floor and a "Rudder Limit" advisory.
 
FOD is always an issue in pushers. Ask me how I know.

Losing the front engine is not nearly as big a deal since A) it's easy to see that you've lost the engine and B) it's the least efficient of the two. IIRC, the climb rate on the front only is about 100fpm less that just the rear engine.

The Navy actually converted a 337 to a single engine.
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Brad Z said:
Nothing fishy. Doing your multi engine rating checkride in a Cessna 336/337 will result in a centerline thrust restriction on your pilot certificate, limiting you to basically only flying skymasters.
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Pretty sure you would also be able to fly a Defiant or A500. If you could find one. LOL
 
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