Getting insurance after a crash

Skyrys62 said:
We all have different risk tolerance. Choose yours.

One aspect I really dislike about insurance, is that the companies are becoming better and better at finding ways not to pay, while raising rates.
Plus, they are now forcing people to comply with petty details or they charge higher premiums. One example: neighbors insurance told them they have to paint their garage, and clean their fence. A little peeling paint, and a little green tint from moss on the fence.
Raised their rates until they do so.
Not a joke.
Also, a co-worker said they threatened to cancel his home insurance until he has a new roof put on. The roof is old, but not in disrepair or falling off (according to him).
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We ran into this roof thing. We just bought a house that is only 12 years old. Our insurance company said they will insure us but will limit the policy’s roof coverage because “it is so old”. At the same time the house we just sold, the buyer backed out because their insurance company was going to charge them a high premium because the roof was old, although that one was 20 years old. When we bought that house three years ago it was not an issue, so apparently roofs have become an issue just recently. One agent told me it was because they had a lot of storm damage claims last year.

This is going to have a bad unintended consequence. If insurance companies are requiring roof replacement at 20 years, people are going to put the cheapest shortest life shingles, because why buy 30 year shingles if the insurance company is going to make you rip it off at 20 years?

Also about finding ways not to pay: We are looking to buy long term care insurance and hearing about how the companies try to get out of paying when you have a claim. I am going to consult with an insurance lawyer to look over the policy before we sign, because those policies are a big deal; expensive premiums, and when you need long term care later when you’re old that’s the last thing you need is the company to not pay.

But we had a great experience with our homeowners when our house had a pipe leak. They paid for it all without even blinking, and kept us as a customer without even raising our premium. I asked one of the reps why? And she said “because the leak was not your fault. If you had done something to cause the loss, such as smoking in bed, that would have been different. But you had a fixture burst that you could not have foreseen, therefore you are no higher risk than normal for another event. Plus you have been our loyal customer for 40 years, that helps a lot.”

In fact, they even covered our new house as an exception because they don’t cover any homes in our location (within a certain number of miles from the coast). Again, she said it was because we had been with them 40 years with all our home, car and umbrella insurance with no claims except a couple of windshields and one car vs deer. (Until the $50,000 plumbing leak that is.)
 
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Skyrys62 said:
Also, a co-worker said they threatened to cancel his home insurance until he has a new roof put on. The roof is old, but not in disrepair or falling off (according to him).
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Not unreasonable. Tar shingles get brittle as they age. We had a hailstorm a few years ago. Neighbor across the street had a new roof put on earlier that year and suffered no damage. My roof was at 15 years and pieces of shingles were coming off from the hits. I was heartbroken that the insurance Co had to buy me a new roof ;-)
 
weilke said:
Not unreasonable. Tar shingles get brittle as they age. We had a hailstorm a few years ago. Neighbor across the street had a new roof put on earlier that year and suffered no damage. My roof was at 15 years and pieces of shingles were coming off from the hits. I was heartbroken that the insurance Co had to buy me a new roof ;-)
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I think threatening to cancel the whole policy is a bit nasty. They could just renew with an exception not to cover the roof, or damage from leaks there-from? It’s like I said, forcing you to do the roof today is going to be like, fine, I’m going to put on the cheapest POS roof possible.
 
In his case, they didn't even ask how old it was, they just called him and said that. Again, this is according to him, but I don' think he would be making it up.

couple more scenarios:
Someone backs into our car. Their insurance paid.
Some ran stop sign, hit us. Their insurance paid.
Our insurance dropped us. Said it was two 'incidences' on our record. (State Farm btw).

Hurricane Hugo made it's way up through here.
Some roofs, trees, fences, etc. damaged.
Allstate tells many folks they are not covered, because they didn't have "hurricane" coverage.
After some lawyer/newspaper talk, they ended up paying (at least those who threatened). I think it was technically downgraded to a tropical storm or something, but Allstate was definitely trying, and succeeding in some cases.

We can't actually group all insurance companies together, as some are better than others...but there are a lot of them doing unreasonable things IMO.
12 year roof?
come on...

edit: apologies to OP for somewhat thread drift.
Currently don't own yet, but I do carry renters insurance for now, as a recent subrogation against a renter cost him a lot of money after he geared up a Cutlass. It also shut down the FBO for months as his rates went into another galaxy. He also had a very hard time finding reasonable coverage, but eventually did.
I don't know if the FBO losses were included in the subrogation or not.
He was found to be at fault for the gear up, not a mechanical failure.
Good luck to you. Hopefully you can find coverage and fly again soon.
 
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Rushie said:
I think threatening to cancel the whole policy is a bit nasty. They could just renew with an exception not to cover the roof, or damage from leaks there-from? It’s like I said, forcing you to do the roof today is going to be like, fine, I’m going to put on the cheapest POS roof possible.
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State insurance law is funny. They may not be able to write an exemption for the roof into the policy.

But yes '50 year shingles' are a waste of money if you live in thunderstorm country.
 
weilke said:
State insurance law is funny. They may not be able to write an exemption for the roof into the policy.

But yes '50 year shingles' are a waste of money if you live in thunderstorm country.
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Ah.... didn’t think of state law, you’re right.
 
bluerooster said:
Law requires auto insurance, so underwriters cannot deny coverage.
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Bullpoop. They can and do unless they're operating in a state that mandates that they extend coverage. In NJ, because the legislature was mainly staffed with personal injury lawyers, about a third of the state was uninsured and moved into a state run pool. Of course, it was financed by all the other insurable drivers in the state. My insurance dropped 80% when I moved out of that corrupt state.
 
I don’t have insurance to cover to plane. I have insurance so if something goes wrong my family isn’t living in a cardboard box after.
 
flyingron said:
Bullpoop. They can and do unless they're operating in a state that mandates that they extend coverage. In NJ, because the legislature was mainly staffed with personal injury lawyers, about a third of the state was uninsured and moved into a state run pool. Of course, it was financed by all the other insurable drivers in the state. My insurance dropped 80% when I moved out of that corrupt state.
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Not bullpoop, one company may deny, but there will be a company that will sell you a policy. And what's neat is that under SR-22, the same underwriter that denied your request for insurance, may well end up being the one to write the policy anyway. ;)
 
One company may deny, but there will be a company thatwill sell you a policy.
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Which is not what you said. You said "underwriters can not deny coverage." That's patently false by your own admission. And I disagree on the SR-22 point in a lot of states. SR-22 doesn't change your insurability or even the premium, other than a nuisance fee. People who need SR-22 policies just tend to be worse risks to begin with.

Either that or you don't know the difference between an agent or underwriter.
 
Rushie said:
A good illustration of how insurance companies will find technicalities to try to deny claims.


Also, those living in poor neighborhoods are discriminated against in claims payouts:

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/will-the-insurance-company-pay-when-your-car-is-stolen-1626055467

Don't want to read? An older lady in a poor neighborhood had her car stolen, it was found burned elsewhere and the insurance company tried to claim she pushed it there and burned it herself.
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Aviation insurance is nothing like auto or health insurance. Everyone bases their assumptions about the overall industry on these common sub industries, whereas aviation specific insurance is a small industry and very cutthroat. If a claim is denied without just cause, the insured will just move on to another company. If an aviation insurance company willfully fabricates evidence against the insured, the insured, who usually has a fair amount of money and thus more savvy than the average consumer, will sue and the state insurance commission will sanction them. There are no deep pocketed aviation insurers passing envelopes of cash to politicians at smoky country club bars.

It is difficult to stay profitable in aviation insurance. If you ball up your new $400,000 Cessna 182 which you were paying $1,000 a year in insurance on, the insurance company needs 400 years to make their money back on that. If you and a passenger were killed in that crash, well now the insurance company is paying at least $1,000,000 in wrongful death payouts on top of that $400k for the aircraft. Yet aviation insurance companies pay claim without much fuss, unless the insured’s violations are egregious(flying drunk/no IFR ticket in IMC, etc). So it’s up to underwriting to make sure they write clean accounts, because once the deal is done, they will almost always pay out when the claims happen.

If you can provide an example of an aviation insurer denying a LEGITIMATE aviation claim, please share.
 
Geosync said:
Aviation insurance is nothing like auto or health insurance. Everyone bases their assumptions about the overall industry on these common sub industries, whereas aviation specific insurance is a small industry and very cutthroat. If a claim is denied without just cause, the insured will just move on to another company. If an aviation insurance company willfully fabricates evidence against the insured, the insured, who usually has a fair amount of money and thus more savvy than the average consumer, will sue and the state insurance commission will sanction them. There are no deep pocketed aviation insurers passing envelopes of cash to politicians at smoky country club bars.

It is difficult to stay profitable in aviation insurance. If you ball up your new $400,000 Cessna 182 which you were paying $1,000 a year in insurance on, the insurance company needs 400 years to make their money back on that. If you and a passenger were killed in that crash, well now the insurance company is paying at least $1,000,000 in wrongful death payouts on top of that $400k for the aircraft. Yet aviation insurance companies pay claim without much fuss, unless the insured’s violations are egregious(flying drunk/no IFR ticket in IMC, etc). So it’s up to underwriting to make sure they write clean accounts, because once the deal is done, they will almost always pay out when the claims happen.

If you can provide an example of an aviation insurer denying a LEGITIMATE aviation claim, please share.
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I thought the conversation had expanded to insurance in general. I wasn't trying to imply aviation insurance was, or was not, as bad as other categories, but I'm glad to hear it isn't!
 
I’m really curious what my best course of action is as a sub 100hr new pilot who might have ground loop totaled my experimental day of check out. Ideally I can just buy a non tail wheel plane and get insured but I’m somewhat scared I might be in plane jail insurance wise for a while.

Words of wisdom: when you are consistently losing directional control on your take off run “don’t do that again” is an insufficient response from your instructor. Do 10 more fast taxis.
 
I totaled a plane about 25 years ago. I bought a replacement even before I had the pay off check in hand. My insurance didn't even go up a penny.
Today pushing 84, I think my luck would be a bit different.
 
weilke said:
Not unreasonable. Tar shingles get brittle as they age. We had a hailstorm a few years ago. Neighbor across the street had a new roof put on earlier that year and suffered no damage.
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Had a similar thing happen when a hurricane came close a few years ago. Blew a few tabs off of the roof. Insurance inspector came by and looked (I don't think he even went on the roof) and said he would figure up the damages and let us know. After he left I went up and replaced about a 1/2 dozen shingles and found the shingles were still very pliable and that that we had no leaks.

To my surprise they sent a nice check to replace the entire roof. That money and a bit more from our little pile had a nice metal roof installed. Man said metal would last for 40 years. Told him that was fine but in 40 years if I was still here, I wouldn't care.

To the OP ... give these folks a call about insurance. They are amazing:

https://air-pros.com/
 
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pmanton said:
I totaled a plane about 25 years ago. I bought a replacement even before I had the pay off check in hand. My insurance didn't even go up a penny.
Today pushing 84, I think my luck would be a bit different.
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A little story about age and aircraft insurance. My Dad sold his 182 when he was 87, and of course canceled the insurance. A few years later we went in together and bought the Cherokee. He could not be a "named insured" on the policy, due to his age 91. They told us that the cut off was 85; But had he not cancelled the insurance on his 182, he could simply add the Cherokee, and drop the Cessna. Now what's the kicker is he could still fly under the "open pilot clause" as he met the requirements for that, and be covered.
 
It might be cheaper to rent with an instructor for the next few years. There are some instructors that will come in on their off-day just to go get a free $100 hamburger with a pure pleasure flight. It gets logged as 'dual x-country', but the CFI is really just chilling out. He may not even charge if there is no real instruction. If something happens, he is the highest rated pilot and they will go after him.

The other option, if you want to purchase a plane, is a 'dual instruction only' insurance restriction.
 
geezer said:
There is risk to others, and going self insured on liability for your actions is not acceptable.

A friend was hit by an uninsured motorist (no license and no legal tags on the car, either).

The victim never walked again, the hospital bills were horrific, and the victim was walking on the sidewalk when hit.

The victim got a court judgement taking all the perpetrators assets except his house, plus a percentage of his after tax income, for the rest of his life. The perpetrator made several moves to other states to try to escape the wage issue, and failed.

That is one of the risks that anybody without insurance takes, whether they realize it or not. It means a life without the money for ANY toys, or even a car. The victim was much younger than the perpetrator, and lived beyond the death of the perpetrator, in a one room apartment. He had found work that he could do in his wheel chair with just one hand, but the pay was small, and the only retirement was social security.

Without insurance, you are saying that you are personally comfortable with the possibility that you will cause such a chain of events.
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OTOH, the human race survived for thousands of years without this insurance racket, and no, the absence of insurance doesn’t mean you don’t care. That’s a false presumption.
 
I had an incident that was entirely my fault and quite expensive. My insurance premium went up somewhat the next year, but not bad at all. That said this was a few years ago. I think the aviation insurance industry has hardened since then, with fewer players and higher premiums. I'm genuinely surprised they'll insure retractable aircraft at all. One summer we tracked all the Mooneys that had gear collapses and gear up accidents. There were so many, no way our premiums covered all that.
 
Jeff767 said:
If the OP can pay cash for another aircraft he probably has assets. Flying uninsured in that case is very bad advice.
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For sure such a pilot needs liability insurance.

But insurance for the hull, maybe or maybe not.
 
RyanShort1 said:
OTOH, the human race survived for thousands of years without this insurance racket, and no, the absence of insurance doesn’t mean you don’t care. That’s a false presumption.
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So the failure of the driver to pay a single cent of the medical bills of a person he confined to crutches for the rest of his life, is just "life happens"? The victims lost his job, as he was physically unable to do it, moved in with friends, and never found employment that paid enough to allow living alone again.

The driver moved far away to avoid court action, and presumably continued to drive.

If you are opposed to insurance, do you fly without hull insurance? I doubt it, most people are unwilling to loose the value of their plane in an accident.
 
geezer said:
So the failure of the driver to pay a single cent of the medical bills of a person he confined to crutches for the rest of his life, is just "life happens"? The victims lost his job, as he was physically unable to do it, moved in with friends, and never found employment that paid enough to allow living alone again.

The driver moved far away to avoid court action, and presumably continued to drive.

If you are opposed to insurance, do you fly without hull insurance? I doubt it, most people are unwilling to loose the value of their plane in an accident.
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There used to be a thing called restitution… and honestly, if we shifted the entire insurance industry into productive labor, reduced regulatory costs and payouts, there would be other shifts as well. Your medical bills might be actually affordable and a person could indeed pay for another’s care. There is a bit of evil built into the system.
 
RyanShort1 said:
There used to be a thing called restitution… and honestly, if we shifted the entire insurance industry into productive labor, reduced regulatory costs and payouts, there would be other shifts as well. Your medical bills might be actually affordable and a person could indeed pay for another’s care. There is a bit of evil built into the system.
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You go first, and tell surgeons their salary will be, say, $75K.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
You go first, and tell surgeons their salary will be, say, $75K.
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I have surgeon friends. They aren't any better off today than they were 30 years ago. Insurance costs for THEM, and all kinds of other stupid overhead eat into that nice fat check. It just shifts the burden, it doesn't actually change the realities. In a way, I'd suggest it actually relieves the idiots of a more severe, and appropriate punishment, by spreading out the costs to those who play in the system...
 
RyanShort1
I asked above if, since you are so concerned that the insurance companies are ripping everybody off, are you self insured for hull?

Liability should not be a choice, but many do not carry it. I have had two friends crippled for life by uninsured drivers. The one not described above, his mom had to sell her house to get his medical bills paid, no restitution, as the driver disappeared, abandoning his truck. This was back when you could get drivers licenses in many states at the same time, with small changes in your name. He presumably went to another state, and started a new life.
 
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