Getting insurance after a crash

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letadlo

Filing Flight Plan
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Letadlo
I was involved in an accident that I was able to walk away from. I was the sole occupant, and nobody on the ground was hurt, but the crash resulted in a total loss of the airplane. The direct cause of the accident was pilot error, with weather and fatigue as contributing factors. Altogether, the insurance company paid out around $100k.

The insurance company told the club that it will not issue a new policy while I remain a member. The insurance broker said that no other insurance company will issue a policy either, so I went ahead and terminated my membership.

To make matters worse, I let my renter’s insurance lapse after I joined the club and stopped renting airplanes.

Another broker I called, confirmed that no insurance carrier would insure me “after a recent claim”. When I asked what that meant, she said that the underwriters look at the claims history going back 3 to 5 years.

Does this mean that for all intents and purposes I am grounded for the next 3-5 years?

I feel terrible about the loss of the aircraft. The crash had taught me a few hard lessons that will stay with me for the rest of my life, and I would like to get back in the sky. What are my options?
 
I don’t know Much about the aviation side of insurance but imagine if they did that for car insurance??? I get it that the rate should probably go up a bit but to be uninsurable?? Ppl with two dui’s can get insurance.
 
I had an insurance payout (Avemco) a couple of years ago. Liability only, they paid to have the the aircraft removed from the property where it went down, no hull unfortunately. No injuries. When I bought a new plane a year later, they had no problem quoting a new policy (with hull this time), though I eventually went with Falcon because they were considerably cheaper. But mine was mechanical failure, not pilot error, maybe that makes a difference?
 
Got me. Neither of my insurers that I've had changed anything after my two claims. The latter was a substantial payout (me for damages, plus probably nearly $10,000 to recover the plane from the field it was in).
 
Wish you luck the insurance companies make the rules.
 
letadlo said:
I feel terrible about the loss of the aircraft. The crash had taught me a few hard lessons that will stay with me for the rest of my life, and I would like to get back in the sky. What are my options?
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Well, you can rent from a FBO. Their insurance doesn't even know who the pilots on the rental planes are. There is a set of criteria the pilot has to fulfill and the fbo is covered.

If you want to buy, talk to Avemco or US Specialty . They will take on higher risks in exchange for charging higher premiums. We had this issue this year. Our insurer exited the aviation market while we had a substantial hull claim. We also have a partner who is >70. No insurer in the regular market was even willing to quote us. Avemco just wanted to know whether it's going to be Master or Visa for the premium.
 
letadlo said:
Does this mean that for all intents and purposes I am grounded for the next 3-5 years?
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No. You are not required to carry insurance to fly. But I find it hard to believe that no one will insure you at any price. Call another broker. Call AOPA. Call Avemco. Or just fly.
 
flyingron said:
Got me. Neither of my insurers that I've had changed anything after my two claims. The latter was a substantial payout (me for damages, plus probably nearly $10,000 to recover the plane from the field it was in).
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Were either of the two claims attributed to pilot error?
 
1. Who decided it was pilot error?
1.a. Did you have your day in court?
2. I’ve never seen a “was the cause of the claim pilot error?” on an insurance application. How do they even know?
 
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weilke said:
Well, you can rent from a FBO. Their insurance doesn't even know who the pilots on the rental planes are. There is a set of criteria the pilot has to fulfill and the fbo is covered.

If you want to buy, talk to Avemco or US Specialty . They will take on higher risks in exchange for charging higher premiums. We had this issue this year. Our insurer exited the aviation market while we had a substantial hull claim. We also have a partner who is >70. No insurer in the regular market was even willing to quote us. Avemco just wanted to know whether it's going to be Master or Visa for the premium.
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True, but the renter isn’t covered and why there is a renters insurance market. Not like every FBO in his area does already know about the accident and his name
 
Insurance companies stink.(I'd use the vernacular, but I like it here....)

A little drift here. I'll make it short.

Total loss of house (explosion). 6months later, notice of cancellation. 30 days to find replacement policy, preferably not State mandated insurance (mortgage $ only, no liability, 4X premium).

"Any claims in the last 5 years?"

"Sorry, can't help you."

Finally found one. Good coverage, only 2X premium.

I have a real distaste for the insurance companies...
 
letadlo said:
I was involved in an accident that I was able to walk away from. I was the sole occupant, and nobody on the ground was hurt, but the crash resulted in a total loss of the airplane. The direct cause of the accident was pilot error, with weather and fatigue as contributing factors. Altogether, the insurance company paid out around $100k.

The insurance company told the club that it will not issue a new policy while I remain a member. The insurance broker said that no other insurance company will issue a policy either, so I went ahead and terminated my membership.

To make matters worse, I let my renter’s insurance lapse after I joined the club and stopped renting airplanes.

Another broker I called, confirmed that no insurance carrier would insure me “after a recent claim”. When I asked what that meant, she said that the underwriters look at the claims history going back 3 to 5 years.

Does this mean that for all intents and purposes I am grounded for the next 3-5 years?

I feel terrible about the loss of the aircraft. The crash had taught me a few hard lessons that will stay with me for the rest of my life, and I would like to get back in the sky. What are my options?
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Interesting, you have learned your hard lessons, no mention of additional training, all you need now is insurance so you can get back in the air.

Do have an instrument rating or commercial certificate? You can complete additional training for both over the next 3 years at a school and not need insurance. This time understand the importance of ground school.

Then go back for insurance.
 
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Salty said:
1. Who decided it was pilot error?
1.a. Did you have your day in court?
2. I’ve never seen a “was the cause of the claim pilot error?” on an insurance application. How do they even know?
Click to expand...

Ever hear of the NTSB?
 
Clip4 said:
True, but the renter isn’t covered and why there is a renters insurance market.
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There is a small risk of subrogation with a FBO rental. He wasn't asking how he could fly risk-free, he was asking how he can continue to fly at all.

Not like every FBO in his area does already know about the accident and his name
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That's a sweeping assumption, possibly correct, probably incorrect.
 
Dana said:
I had an insurance payout (Avemco) a couple of years ago. Liability only, they paid to have the the aircraft removed from the property where it went down, no hull unfortunately. No injuries. When I bought a new plane a year later, they had no problem quoting a new policy (with hull this time), though I eventually went with Falcon because they were considerably cheaper. But mine was mechanical failure, not pilot error, maybe that makes a difference?
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Almost the same story for me. I crashed (mechanical error, not mine) and the plane was totaled. Avemco paid me and then when I got a new plane (Luscombe crashed, bought a Cessna 140) they tried to raise my rates about $200/year. Just based on principle, I went to Falcon and saved quite a bit of money.
 
weilke said:
There is a small risk of subrogation with a FBO rental. He wasn't asking how he could fly risk-free, he was asking how he can continue to fly at all.



That's a sweeping assumption, possibly correct, probably incorrect.
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His name was probably on the evening news and definitely in the local newspaper and you don’t think the local FBOs know who crashed the plane at XXX. Got it.
 
letadlo said:
The insurance company told the club that it will not issue a new policy while I remain a member.
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Pernicious nonsense. I know a club with a plane that has landed gear up THREE times, TWICE by the same pilot, and the guy is still a member.

I think your club thought they could get a better rate without you. Which is also dubious because they set rates as if EVERY potential member is minimally qualified. They don't send it back to underwriting every time a member name changes.
 
I had no significant problem with my personal policy after a pilot error claim(about 80% of hull value), premium went up about 10% the next year.
 
Once again, I don't think there is such a distinction as a "pilot error claim". Claims are claims. I don't think insurance adjusts based on the nature of the claim. They adjust by virtue of the existence of a claim in the first place. At least every renewal I've filled out has asked me if there was a prior claim. Never have I read a question asking if the claim was "my fault" as determined by NTSB/some-POA-guy-said/potato.

The only time I've heard issues of "culpability" affecting an insurance claim, they have dealt with questions as to whether the insurer wishes to honor the claim in the first place, on the basis of malfeasance. That's a whole different topic than this notion of getting non-renewed on the basis of the "nature" of a claim.
 
Ravioli said:
Pernicious nonsense. I know a club with a plane that has landed gear up THREE times, TWICE by the same pilot, and the guy is still a member.

I think your club thought they could get a better rate without you. Which is also dubious because they set rates as if EVERY potential member is minimally qualified. They don't send it back to underwriting every time a member name changes.
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The club does lose any safe flying discounts when an in motion claim is made and can be dropped if they have too many accidents. I agree the Club Board decided to cut their future risk by tossing the OP. Probably more to the story than we know here.
 
benyflyguy said:
I don’t know Much about the aviation side of insurance but imagine if they did that for car insurance??? I get it that the rate should probably go up a bit but to be uninsurable?? Ppl with two dui’s can get insurance.
Click to expand...

They do also do this for car insurance. If your claim or claims exceed certain limits, the insurance will drop you and you may have a difficult time finding new insurance. That limit is also much lower than you might expect as it is much lower than the coverage specified in your policy.

They'll drop you and/or deny you insurance for other reasons too... DUIs, too many tickets, too many claims (even if they were all small, more claims is seen as more risky than a single large claim), lapses in coverage (even if you dont own a car, if you dont carry car insurance, some insurers will refuse to cover you or charge exorbitant amounts for your coverage), the list goes on.

"The General" and other cheap auto insurers that you often see cheesy TV commercials for make a market out of offering state-mandated minimum insurance to these "high-risk" individuals. Progressive is one of the few "big insurers" that will insure them (Progressive got their start as a haven for high-risk drivers).
 
This was not my experience after totalling a plane.

I'd be interested in OP's NTSB report for his incident, to understand better why he's seen as underwriter kryptonite.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Once again, I don't think there is such a distinction as a "pilot error claim". Claims are claims. I don't think insurance adjusts based on the nature of the claim. They adjust by virtue of the existence of a claim in the first place. At least every renewal I've filled out has asked me if there was a prior claim. Never have I read a question asking if the claim was "my fault" as determined by NTSB/some-POA-guy-said/potato.

The only time I've heard issues of "culpability" affecting an insurance claim, they have dealt with questions as to whether the insurer wishes to honor the claim in the first place, on the basis of malfeasance. That's a whole different topic than this notion of getting non-renewed on the basis of the "nature" of a claim.
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That’s what I thought too but perhaps the “claim is a claim” notion factors more in the overall cost of insuring a particular airframe ( meaning your claim makes it just a tiny bit more expensive for everyone ) but don’t they factor your individual circumstances as well when renewing your coverage ? I mean, having a plane totaled because someone else ran into it while parked on a tarmac is different than having it totaled because you have a habit of attempting landings on , say, river banks ...
 
Salty said:
1. Who decided it was pilot error?
1.a. Did you have your day in court?
2. I’ve never seen a “was the cause of the claim pilot error?” on an insurance application. How do they even know?
Click to expand...

Very possibly the underwriters looked at the NTSB report.
 
Buy a plane and fly sans insurance for 3-5 years?
 
As a claims guy In the hated insurance industry, I’d consider speaking with other brokers who can go to the underwriters and ask about options to getting coverage, like adding a training requirement, deductible, exclusions like night/IMC, etc.. there are ways but some haggling will be needed. Small GA brokers don’t always like to/know to do that like those that deal in corporate iron where haggling is part of the process.

Do NOT fly without insurance. If you injure someone or damage property are you willing to expose yourself(your family if you’re dead) to a legal disaster where the attorneys take everything you own?

Keep in mind that aviation insurance is not like other insurance industries. The competition is fierce and profits are razor thin. A $100k loss wipes out the premium of over 50 policies, so it’s tough on the bottom line, even though “pilot error” is a covered loss(generally speaking).

And underwriting does recognize a pure accident-(birdstrike) vs. something avoidable(forgot to lower the landing gear). They will pay both claims, but they penalty for a gear up will be more severe.
 
Geosync said:
Do NOT fly without insurance. If you injure someone or damage property are you willing to expose yourself(your family if you’re dead) to a legal disaster where the attorneys take everything you own?
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Nice pitch.


But what happens if NOTHING happens?

I mean it’s a big push now that you’re a horrible human if you’re not insuring everything from your car to your cat to your pizza delivery, that ends up as a TON of money and unless you crash or something it’s just flushed.

Maybe just do a risk assement, personally I choose to buy insurance for some things and choose to not buy insurance for other things.

It’s just like any other product, sometimes there is a need others times the need doesn’t match the price.
 
benyflyguy said:
I don’t know Much about the aviation side of insurance but imagine if they did that for car insurance??? I get it that the rate should probably go up a bit but to be uninsurable?? Ppl with two dui’s can get insurance.
Click to expand...
Law requires auto insurance, so underwriters cannot deny coverage. In the aviation world insurance is a luxury, not a requirement, so underwriters can deny coverage.
 
letadlo said:
What are my options?
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FWIW: in my dealings with insurance companies and attorneys I've never seen someone not be able to obtain future insurance after an incident/accident unless there was a certificate action by the FAA or a criminal action by local authorities. Now what you may have to pay for that insurance may be a different matter.
 
pigpenracing said:
All my airplanes are paid for and I fly them without insurance.
Screw insurance!
If I had to insure everything I own I wouldn't have anything because my whole paycheck would go to insurance.
I take my chances...
If I wreck one of the planes and survive I will just part out what is left of it.
Click to expand...

Oh indeed. It certainly isn't about the hull value for me, I can afford the total loss (which is why I don't pay six figures for a toy as a matter of principle, but that's for another day). It's the liability for collateral property damage for whatever I strike when I go three-wheeling that would concern me. Pedestrians and their stuff are expensive to hit. For what I pay in premium, 1MM worth of property damage is well in excess of what my net worth is, so the premium is worth it to me.

In fairness I have hull coverage because it's cheap enough why not. But if I was looking at twins, taildraggers or experimentals, where they penalize me for not having "time in type" regardless of my total experience, I would absolutely go liability only, as that is the part of an accident that could legally drain me of my liquidity and put my family in peril. Other than that I wholeheartedly agree with your approach.
 
pigpenracing said:
All my airplanes are paid for and I fly them without insurance.
Screw insurance!
If I had to insure everything I own I wouldn't have anything because my whole paycheck would go to insurance.
I take my chances...
If I wreck one of the planes and survive I will just part out what is left of it.
Click to expand...

^that


What is > What ifs

Take a deep breath and just live life.
 
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↑pigpenracing said: [URL='https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/goto/post?id=2809281#post-2809281']↑[/URL]
All my airplanes are paid for and I fly them without insurance.
Screw insurance!
If I had to insure everything I own I wouldn't have anything because my whole paycheck would go to insurance.
I take my chances...
If I wreck one of the planes and survive I will just part out what is left of it.

There is risk to self, and going self insured is fine with me.

There is risk to others, and going self insured on liability for your actions is not acceptable.

A friend was hit by an uninsured motorist (no license and no legal tags on the car, either).

The victim never walked again, the hospital bills were horrific, and the victim was walking on the sidewalk when hit.

The victim got a court judgement taking all the perpetrators assets except his house, plus a percentage of his after tax income, for the rest of his life. The perpetrator made several moves to other states to try to escape the wage issue, and failed.

That is one of the risks that anybody without insurance takes, whether they realize it or not. It means a life without the money for ANY toys, or even a car. The victim was much younger than the perpetrator, and lived beyond the death of the perpetrator, in a one room apartment. He had found work that he could do in his wheel chair with just one hand, but the pay was small, and the only retirement was social security.

Without insurance, you are saying that you are personally comfortable with the possibility that you will cause such a chain of events.
 
geezer said:
↑pigpenracing said: ↑
All my airplanes are paid for and I fly them without insurance.
Screw insurance!
If I had to insure everything I own I wouldn't have anything because my whole paycheck would go to insurance.
I take my chances...
If I wreck one of the planes and survive I will just part out what is left of it.

There is risk to self, and going self insured is fine with me.

There is risk to others, and going self insured on liability for your actions is not acceptable.

A friend was hit by an uninsured motorist (no license and no legal tags on the car, either).

The victim never walked again, the hospital bills were horrific, and the victim was walking on the sidewalk when hit.

The victim got a court judgement taking all the perpetrators assets except his house, plus a percentage of his after tax income, for the rest of his life. The perpetrator made several moves to other states to try to escape the wage issue, and failed.

That is one of the risks that anybody without insurance takes, whether they realize it or not. It means a life without the money for ANY toys, or even a car. The victim was much younger than the perpetrator, and lived beyond the death of the perpetrator, in a one room apartment. He had found work that he could do in his wheel chair with just one hand, but the pay was small, and the only retirement was social security.

Without insurance, you are saying that you are personally comfortable with the possibility that you will cause such a chain of events.
Click to expand...

This. People who don’t have many assets falsely believe they are “judgment proof”. But that judgment can follow you for life and take whatever crumbs you manage to earn, or even come in your house and start hauling away your furniture.
 
We all have different risk tolerance. Choose yours.

One aspect I really dislike about insurance, is that the companies are becoming better and better at finding ways not to pay, while raising rates.
Plus, they are now forcing people to comply with petty details or they charge higher premiums. One example: neighbors insurance told them they have to paint their garage, and clean their fence. A little peeling paint, and a little green tint from moss on the fence.
Raised their rates until they do so.
Not a joke.

Also, a co-worker said they threatened to cancel his home insurance until he has a new roof put on. The roof is old, but not in disrepair or falling off (according to him).
 
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Depending on what you fly and what liability limits you choose, hull coverage can turn into the smaller part of the insurance bill. Compared with the size of the asset at risk, the amount we pay for hull coverage seems modest.
 
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