Gear Up Landing Right in Front of Me

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rt4388

Pre-takeoff checklist
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rt4388
Was number two to land today when a Mooney landed gear up right in front of me... I heard the gear warning horn over the radios and didn't say anything. Looking back, I should have given a "hey, just want to make sure you know you might have your gear warning horn going off" call, but I was too focused on instructing.
Listening to ATC it sounds like it was on for a solid two minutes before he touched down. Anyone remember the technical term for when you tune noises out? Seems like a good teaching moment for my students.
 
Airport?? Tail number?.


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Well, your attention was where it belonged, with the student that's paying for your full attention.

I'm sorry to hear about the event. Money fixes the Mooney.
 
If you were number 2, and had any sort of idea that the plane in front of you might have an issue. Were you really focused on instruction. I teach my students they should be paying attention to what the plane in front of them on final is doing or might possibly do. You should be aware of any possible plane in the pattern, on the runway, entering the pattern.
 
TommyG said:
If you were number 2, and had any sort of idea that the plane in front of you might have an issue. Were you really focused on instruction. I teach my students they should be paying attention to what the plane in front of them on final is doing or might possibly do. You should be aware of any possible plane in the pattern, on the runway, entering the pattern.
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It’s a good goal but you’ll never achieve perfection.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It’s a good goal but you’ll never achieve perfection.
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It’s a goal. But at least know what the plane in front of you is gonna do. Plan on a go around on every landing.
 
TommyG said:
If you were number 2, and had any sort of idea that the plane in front of you might have an issue. Were you really focused on instruction. I teach my students they should be paying attention to what the plane in front of them on final is doing or might possibly do. You should be aware of any possible plane in the pattern, on the runway, entering the pattern.
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Not quite sure what you’re getting at here. Can you rephrase?
 
Don’t kick yourself over their mistake.

Best you could probably do would be to say “gear down” and no guarantees it would have worked.

It’s a pretty good example of why one of my instructors wouldn’t allow an expected gear horn (slow, doing air work at idle) go unacknowledged.

“Gear warning, expected. Continue.”

You either said that or you put the gear down.

The idea was someday on short final you’d start to say it and your brain would trip over “expected”. Oh crap. “Go around.”
 
rt4388 said:
Anyone remember the technical term for when you tune noises out?
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ANR. Between auditory exclusion, hearing loss, and expensive headsets, I think there are a lot of pilots out there totally unable to hear any audible warning in the cockpit.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Pretty sure the OP didn’t land on top of the Mooney stuck on the runway. Not sure what you think he could have done differently.
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Could have said something! My point is he stated he was too into his instructing to mention something. Part of his instructing should be teaching to anticipate what might happen in front of you.
 
TommyG said:
Could have said something! My point is he stated he was too into his instructing to mention something. Part of his instructing should be teaching to anticipate what might happen in front of you.
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Sorry. Don’t agree. He was aware enough to notice the audible gear horn over the radio, considered speaking up, decided not to and didn’t land on the guy. You could suggest saying something would have been a good idea but to conclude he wasn’t situationally aware and criticize him his a bit much.
 
Rgbeard said:
Hey, OP. Are you sure on the time? I was curious enough to tap into liveatc for Thur at 23:30-00:00Z, and couldn't hear this tail # call in.
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My bad, 2048! You can hear his first call somewhere around 12 minutes in. Base around 18 and ATC instructions around 20.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Sorry. Don’t agree. He was aware enough to notice the audible gear horn over the radio, considered speaking up, decided not to and didn’t land on the guy. You could suggest saying something would have been a good idea but to conclude he wasn’t situationally aware and criticize him his a bit much.
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So, I should have told him good job? I see it it as perfect opportunity to teach a student situational awareness. Planning for potential go around. And yes, there is a time and place to speak up.

Aside from mentioning something to the other pilot. I would have been tellling the student what that sound was, and what could we expect to happen. That would have been included in my instruction to the student. As a CFI on final and even in the pattern you can never have your head completely involved in just teaching the student. You are the responsible party. You need to know what is going on outside of your plane while teaching the student inside the plane.

I assume you are a CFI? And you can sugarcoat things however you like!
 
TommyG said:
So, I should have told him good job? I see it it as perfect opportunity to teach a student situational awareness. Planning for potential go around. And yes, there is a time and place to speak up.

Aside from mentioning something to the other pilot. I would have been tellling the student what that sound was, and what could we expect to happen. That would have been included in my instruction to the student. As a CFI on final and even in the pattern you can never have your head completely involved in just teaching the student. You are the responsible party. You need to know what is going on outside of your plane while teaching the student inside the plane.

I assume you are a CFI? And you can sugarcoat things however you like!
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Not trying to get into a long discussion here, but I was teaching my student how to fly his airplane. Not how to fly other pilots'. To be clear, I heard the horn over the radio but didn't process that this guy might not have heard it until we saw him on the side of the runway. Do I start every approach anticipating a go-around? Sure. Did my student and I have eyes on the airplane the entire time. Yes. Did we start to think about a go-around when it looked like he wasn't taxing off the runway? Yes. I don't think I was unaware of what was going on outside the airplane at all.
Students only have so much bandwidth. Maybe this was one of his first flights and he would have had no clue what I was talking about... Is it a teaching point? Sure. But probably not while turning base for a landing.
 
TommyG said:
So, I should have told him good job? I see it it as perfect opportunity to teach a student situational awareness. Planning for potential go around. And yes, there is a time and place to speak up.

Aside from mentioning something to the other pilot. I would have been tellling the student what that sound was, and what could we expect to happen. That would have been included in my instruction to the student. As a CFI on final and even in the pattern you can never have your head completely involved in just teaching the student. You are the responsible party. You need to know what is going on outside of your plane while teaching the student inside the plane.

I assume you are a CFI? And you can sugarcoat things however you like!
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Fly your airplane. Sanctimony is down the hall, next to last door on the left.
 
TommyG said:
So, I should have told him good job? I see it it as perfect opportunity to teach a student situational awareness. Planning for potential go around. And yes, there is a time and place to speak up.

Aside from mentioning something to the other pilot. I would have been tellling the student what that sound was, and what could we expect to happen. That would have been included in my instruction to the student. As a CFI on final and even in the pattern you can never have your head completely involved in just teaching the student. You are the responsible party. You need to know what is going on outside of your plane while teaching the student inside the plane.

I assume you are a CFI? And you can sugarcoat things however you like!
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Yes. Have been a cfi for 19 years. I’m not sugar coating anything.
 
rt4388 said:
Was number two to land today when a Mooney landed gear up right in front of me... I heard the gear warning horn over the radios and didn't say anything.
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Well, I turned it into a sport landing M20E without hearing the horn, and mostly succeed, but not always. Keeping the airplane above 16" MP pretty much requires slowing into white arc while still level, dirtying it, and only then descending. If for whatever reason I have to start descending earlier, it's a lost cause: I will have to pull the throttle into the horn range.
 
Hi.
I am sure this is not new, but there are only two kinds of pilots that fly RGs, the ones that landed with the gear up, or Will land with a gear up. Just accept it, or stay away from RGs.
 
bluesideup said:
Hi.
I am sure this is not new, but there are only two kinds of pilots that fly RGs, the ones that landed with the gear up, or Will land with a gear up. Just accept it, or stay away from RGs.
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LOL. Gear up landings aren't nearly common enough for every pilot flying retractable gear planes (and that's the overwhelming majority) to have a gear up landing in their flying lifetime.
 
bluesideup said:
Hi.
I am sure this is not new, but there are only two kinds of pilots that fly RGs, the ones that landed with the gear up, or Will land with a gear up. Just accept it, or stay away from RGs.
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Resignation is a hazardous attitude. A better way to think about it is "It could happen to me," IMO.
 
Might have been a simulated engine failure 180, drop the gear at the last minute type thing?

Seems those types of maneuvers are where it's easier to make a mistake.
 
bluesideup said:
Hi.
I am sure this is not new, but there are only two kinds of pilots that fly RGs, the ones that landed with the gear up, or Will land with a gear up. Just accept it, or stay away from RGs.
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Yeah, I’ve heard that but it’s just not true. That’s just what you tell someone who did it to make them feel better.

That said, anyone who thinks it can’t happen to them may be in store for a rude awakening.
 
I'm always so suprised at how general aviation is so far behind on possible technology that would make things 1000x safer. I know it is a money issue...but still.

It's like the back up rear view camera - every car should have one.

How hard would it be for a bunch of smart engineers to come up with a way that recognizes when a plane is coming in for landing and the gear (when appropriate), just goes down automatically - and the pilot...to over-ride...would have to physically put in input to reverse this.

I'm not even clever, and I can think of 2 or 3 ways that would easily work. For one, the tower could send out an electronic ping to all plans with RG when they are a mile out on final. GPS equiped planes could recognize a pattern, a decrease in speed, and a descent - and automatically lower the gears a mile out. There could be a system on the ground that when planes crossed the threshold, the gear lowers.

So many possibilities.

How we don't receive text messages from the tower on our displays is beyond me. How many AOPA youtube saftey videos do we have to watch where there was total miscommunication on the radio before we can admit - its super hard to hear sometimes what people are saying or what they mean? How is it that ATC personnel have the worst diction on the planet?
 
Slackyhacky said:
I'm always so suprised at how general aviation is so far behind on possible technology that would make things 1000x safer. I know it is a money issue...but still.

It's like the back up rear view camera - every car should have one.

How hard would it be for a bunch of smart engineers to come up with a way that recognizes when a plane is coming in for landing and the gear (when appropriate), just goes down automatically - and the pilot...to over-ride...would have to physically put in input to reverse this.

I'm not even clever, and I can think of 2 or 3 ways that would easily work. For one, the tower could send out an electronic ping to all plans with RG when they are a mile out on final. GPS equiped planes could recognize a pattern, a decrease in speed, and a descent - and automatically lower the gears a mile out. There could be a system on the ground that when planes crossed the threshold, the gear lowers.

So many possibilities.

How we don't receive text messages from the tower on our displays is beyond me. How many AOPA youtube saftey videos do we have to watch where there was total miscommunication on the radio before we can admit - its super hard to hear sometimes what people are saying or what they mean? How is it that ATC personnel have the worst diction on the planet?
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I believe both of your ideas have been in play for sometime now.
Whether or not the airplane is capable is another story.
 
Slackyhacky said:
I'm always so suprised at how general aviation is so far behind on possible technology that would make things 1000x safer. I know it is a money issue...but still.

It's like the back up rear view camera - every car should have one.

How hard would it be for a bunch of smart engineers to come up with a way that recognizes when a plane is coming in for landing and the gear (when appropriate), just goes down automatically - and the pilot...to over-ride...would have to physically put in input to reverse this.

I'm not even clever, and I can think of 2 or 3 ways that would easily work. For one, the tower could send out an electronic ping to all plans with RG when they are a mile out on final. GPS equiped planes could recognize a pattern, a decrease in speed, and a descent - and automatically lower the gears a mile out. There could be a system on the ground that when planes crossed the threshold, the gear lowers.

So many possibilities.

How we don't receive text messages from the tower on our displays is beyond me. How many AOPA youtube saftey videos do we have to watch where there was total miscommunication on the radio before we can admit - its super hard to hear sometimes what people are saying or what they mean? How is it that ATC personnel have the worst diction on the planet?
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Just an FYI, some Piper Arrows have a system to automatically deploy the gear. Most/all of those systems have been disabled.

Now to other ways to think about it. How are the systems you propose going to be secured? Can anybody set up a transmitter to deploy gear? How is that going to work out when the gear redeploys at one hundred feet on departure because Mr. IHateAirportNoise set up a radio beacon? Anything ground based is going to cost more than the aircraft repairs would cost. Think about that one for a minute.

So yeah, I’m being negative here. Onboard systems have been tried. Ground based systems are a non-starter.
 
Clark1961 said:
Just an FYI, some Piper Arrows have a system to automatically deploy the gear. Most/all of those systems have been disabled.

Now to other ways to think about it. How are the systems you propose going to be secured? Can anybody set up a transmitter to deploy gear? How is that going to work out when the gear redeploys at one hundred feet on departure because Mr. IHateAirportNoise set up a radio beacon? Anything ground based is going to cost more than the aircraft repairs would cost. Think about that one for a minute.

So yeah, I’m being negative here. Onboard systems have been tried. Ground based systems are a non-starter.
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Like I said...a smart engineer at MIT could come up with LOTS of great ways.

My phone does amazing things that are automatic. It is wonderful. They were thought up by really smart people. Do you know that when I open up my computer, the browser history that was on my phone automatically shows up on the computer? And we have so many computers and phones in the house...and it knows which one was mine! And no one can hack that (unless they are extremely sophisticated and was directly targeting me).

It is good you are negative. It helps the designers come up with ways that would really work. You think about that for a minute. Think about how some of the technology you use everyday in other situations work almost flawlessly in complicated systems. My point is...GA is SOOO FAR behind the curve with stuff like this.

TESLA can come up with a truck that runs on electricity and can charge in about 30 minutes and someone can't come up with a solution to the problem of gear up landings?

I'm not sure why people are against the idea that GA is so behind in technology. I remember asking on this forum some years ago why there wasn't wireless headphones in the cockpit and people said....oh, the environment is just too noisy (which I thought was a ridiculous answer). Well guess what...there are tons of products now available.

People are smart. If money comes their way, they can come up with great things and wonderful solutions to problems.
 
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Slackyhacky said:
Like I said...a smart engineer at MIT could come up with LOTS of great ways.

My iphone does amazing things that are automatic. It is wonderful. They were thought up by really smart people.

It is good you are negative. It helps the designers come up with ways that would really work. You think about that for a minute. Think about how some of the technology you use everyday in other situations work almost flawlessly in complicated systems. My point is...GA is SOOO FAR behind the curve with stuff like this.
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I see you missed the point entirely. The cost/benefit ratio is not there to drive the development of automated systems. The same can be said for text coms. Aircraft owners complain about the cost of ABS-B and you suggest something equally complicated which would distract the pilot from flying the plane.

And your response is “smart people could solve the problems.” Okay then. Why don’t you organize things? I’ll wait right here.
 
Clark1961 said:
I see you missed the point entirely. The cost/benefit ratio is not there to drive the development of automated systems. The same can be said for text coms. Aircraft owners complain about the cost of ABS-B and you suggest something equally complicated which would distract the pilot from flying the plane.

And your response is “smart people could solve the problems.” Okay then. Why don’t you organize things? I’ll wait right here.
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So your point was that it costs to much money?

I did miss that point entirely.

It's a good point, and answers the question why GA is so far behind I guess.

Aircraft owners SHOULD complain about the cost of ABS-B because it is ridiculous how much it costs. I suspect it costs so much because of political bullSH$T.
 
Political BS and onerous certification regulations that inhibit truly innovative ideas from being integrated into new GA aircraft. At least on the certified side. Experimental aircraft have much more latitude in that regard
 
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