Gear stays down for pattern work?

[JHW]

evidently I'm the only one but I'll say it depends on the airplane

piper arrow or beech debonair etc, no question reach over and flick the gear switch up and down with one finger.

need to get your 3 hard-surface landings for passenger currency in in a plane with amphib floats and manual pump up-down, forget that. Leave the wheels down.

antique beech with bicycle chain gear, cycles count toward a lot of aggravating work. Leave it down.

 

[Bill Watson]

Absolutely every time set the habit, use the list. Your airplane and insurance company will thank you.in my humble but accurate opinion.

Agreed.

If you are lucky, you'll get to practice an unexpected go around on final to get some complex 'actual'.

Bill "likes retracts on my glider and fixed gear on my airplane" Watson

 

[jbarrass]

Follow the checklist. Build some muscle memory and get in the habit of doing it right.

Pattern work doesn't strike me as task saturation at all. I do it as often as my schedule allows. I fly a Comanche too and it takes a while to get comfortable with the landings......then it reminds you not to get comfortable with landings....

 

[Fearless Tower]

Complex airplanes don't use patterns?!?

Guess someone should tell the guys I saw doing pattern work/T&Gs at CRP in a 737 that.

 

[MAKG1]

Guess someone should tell the guys I saw doing pattern work/T&Gs at CRP in a 737 that.

T&Gs in a 737? I thought the only complex multi that allowed that was a C-130, and it required special training to do so. It takes a bit of time to spool up jet engines...

Some of us are prohibited from T&Gs on complex aircraft by insurance rules. And the value of T&Gs in the first place is debatable, as it trades number for quality, especially if you're doing anything besides renewing day currency.

 

[LDJones]

T&Gs in a 737? I thought the only complex multi that allowed that was a C-130, and it required special training to do so. It takes a bit of time to spool up jet engines...

Some of us are prohibited from T&Gs on complex aircraft by insurance rules. And the value of T&Gs in the first place is debatable, as it trades number for quality, especially if you're doing anything besides renewing day currency.

Back in the early '70s NWA flew their new 747s from KMSP up to KFAR for training. They'd do non-stop touch & goes for a few hours at a time, rotating crew periodically in flight.

 

[KA550]

Gear, flaps, boost pump and prop all while watching for traffic and flying the aircraft. And missing any one of them can make your day turn out really bad. Sounds like a lot to me.

Not surprising.

 

[alfadog]

Gear, flaps, boost pump and prop all while watching for traffic and flying the aircraft. And missing any one of them can make your day turn out really bad. Sounds like a lot to me.

Gas, brake, clutch, shift, and tune the radio all while watching for traffic and driving the car. And missing any one of them can make your day turn out really bad. Sounds like a lot to me.

Not to mention the Egg McMuffin and coffee.

 

[dell30rb]

Gas, brake, clutch, shift, and tune the radio all while watching for traffic and driving the car. And missing any one of them can make your day turn out really bad. Sounds like a lot to me.

Not to mention the Egg McMuffin and coffee.

This reminds me of an old simpson's episode where Homer finds out he was born in Mexico and has to be naturalized. One of the tests he had to complete to become an american was talking on the cell while driving and eating a cheeseburger

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I fly a Comanche too and it takes a while to get comfortable with the landings......then it reminds you not to get comfortable with landings....

This right here. I'm finding my bird likes full flaps, 80 mph on final. Not particularly hard to land, but the stories of it being essential to nail airspeed are absolutely true. Coupla ticks fast and you're missing the first turn, guaranteed. Learning to finish on the greaser, never say "Just one more". Bad for the ego.

The other thing I have to get used to is right traffic pattern. the roof blocks the the runway visual on the downwind to base turn.

Love this bird though.

 

[Clip4]

Gear up after each take off, leave the pattern and return, no touch and go.

 

[RotorAndWing]

T&Gs in a 737? I thought the only complex multi that allowed that was a C-130, and it required special training to do so. It takes a bit of time to spool up jet engines...

Some of us are prohibited from T&Gs on complex aircraft by insurance rules. And the value of T&Gs in the first place is debatable, as it trades number for quality, especially if you're doing anything besides renewing day currency.

Back in the early '70s NWA flew their new 747s from KMSP up to KFAR for training. They'd do non-stop touch & goes for a few hours at a time, rotating crew periodically in flight.

I've done them in the B-727, B-757 and the A320, no big deal, just follow procedures.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I've done them in the B-727, B-757 and the A320, no big deal, just follow procedures.

I seem to recall one of Les Abend's (FLYING) columns where he described his initial training at AA in the 727 doing touch and goes out in the desert.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Lucky]

Back in the early '70s NWA flew their new 747s from KMSP up to KFAR for training. They'd do non-stop touch & goes for a few hours at a time, rotating crew periodically in flight.

Exactly. I've done patterns in every aircraft I've ever flown especially those I've flown in the military. There isn't anything particularly complicated about it.

 

[Everskyward]

I seem to recall one of Les Abend's (FLYING) columns where he described his initial training at AA in the 727 doing touch and goes out in the desert.

But when you talk about doing them in jets you are talking about having another set of hands to set the flaps etc. before takeoff. You're also talking about people who are used to working as a crew and have most likely briefed what each person is going to do. My first landings in both the Hawker and the Sovereign were touch and goes.

 

[Lucky]

But when you talk about doing them in jets you are talking about having another set of hands to set the flaps etc. before takeoff. You're also talking about people who are used to working as a crew and have most likely briefed what each person is going to do. My first landings in both the Hawker and the Sovereign were touch and goes.

Not necessarily true. I've flown the C510 and now fly the C525C, both single pilot certified. Trust me...flying patterns in these airplanes is not a problem. Even in larger jets that have a crew, IMO there really isn't that much to do.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Complex airplanes don't use patterns?!?

Nope. We fly 20 mile straight ins


Put the gear up. Good habit. I'm not a huge fan of the T&G in a complex airplane but if the runway is long enough where you can almost stop (or just do a stop & go) then I'll do them.

 

[denverpilot]

Back in the early '70s NWA flew their new 747s from KMSP up to KFAR for training. They'd do non-stop touch & goes for a few hours at a time, rotating crew periodically in flight.

Government was doing it with the laser equipped 747 and multiple KC-135s at KLNK when I was there doing Instrument work with Jesse. Was a hoot to watch the 74 doing it.

 

[Everskyward]

Not necessarily true. I've flown the C510 and now fly the C525C, both single pilot certified. Trust me...flying patterns in these airplanes is not a problem. Even in larger jets that have a crew, IMO there really isn't that much to do.

I see what you are saying but I've never flown a single pilot jet. I've flown a King Air single pilot many times and have done touch and goes, but those were always with another pilot since it was always some sort of training. We don't usually get to just goof off alone in the airplane.

Speaking of training, I figured out one more thing you need to say. I was once giving someone his first three landings in the 680 the first two being touch and goes. We talked about not using the spoilers and thrust reversers and that I, as the non-flying pilot would set the flaps. This was someone I had flown with a number of times before who I knew had good skills. Everything was looking fine including the approach and landing but almost as soon as the wheels touched, it seemed to me, he pushed the throttles forward. Rapidly. The airplane voice started yelling "no takeoff, no takeoff" so we aborted. As we taxied off the runway I asked what that was all about. We were on a very long runway so there was no hurry. I had raised the flap lever to the proper detent and told him so but the flaps in the airplane are slow and they weren't in the proper position quite yet, triggering the warning. The airplane also has a huge amount of excess thrust, especially empty. He said, "You said to do a touch and go. That's the way we do them in the Navy..." Ohhhh. I had never needed to explain to civilian pilots what I meant by touch and go. A nice relaxed one, not a carrier bolter.

I have some other stories about the difference in communicating with former military pilots and how that can be a hazard sometime and just humorous at others.

 

[poadeleted21]

Still getting comfortable in the Comanche, spending a lot of time doing full stop landings and T&G's. Some guys are telling me to leave the gear down, less wear and tear. Others say gear up and down every time to ingrain the habit.

What say you complex guys?

Out of usable runway? gear up.

I don't do T&Gs in the Bonanza.

 

[flyingron]

You can have your opinion on T&G's but you better practice balked landings from time to time especially in an aircraft that needs a substantial change in configuration between approach and climb out. Whether you do that while the wheels are on the pavement or just above it... you need to be adept at making that change.

 

[tmyers]

Someone mentioned T&G in the larger aircraft. I have watched C-5's and 17's do them for hours at Wright Pat KFFO

 

[JimNtexas]

You can almost always take off with no flaps in a Cardinal RG, but it really works better at 10.

The rotation has to be really subtle with no flaps or you settle back on the runway after rotation.

Fixed that for you. At higher DA's in a Cardinal you MUST select ten degree flaps if you want to have a shorter ground roll than an A380. And measure you flaps with a protractor, don't rely on the position indicator.

Takeoff flaps are a very, very easy thing to forget, much easier to forget than the landing gear.

 

[MAKG1]

Good point. I really hate no-flap takeoffs in the Cardinal unless I have at least a mile of runway even at sea level. The roll takes bloody forever, even on two wheels.

 

[flyingron]

I've watched SAM-27000 make mutliple T&G's at IAD one morning. It wasn't nearly as impressive as watching AF-1 (DUB was aboard) do a low pass over the runway at first flight under a low overcast (a B-2 had made a pass a few minutes earlier) during the 100th anniversary of the Wright Brothers.

 

[EdFred]

Fixed that for you. At higher DA's in a Cardinal you MUST select ten degree flaps if you want to have a shorter ground roll than an A380. And measure you flaps with a protractor, don't rely on the position indicator.

Takeoff flaps are a very, very easy thing to forget, much easier to forget than the landing gear.

Your best bet is to deflect the aileron fully, then match the flap to that.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The safest "habit" to get into with Amphibs is to "think" about the gear and both the take off just completed along with the pending touchdown as related to the surfaces. A pattern can go from land to sea in less than 1 minute and back and forth.

If practicing only wheel landings and wishing to save gear cycling wear as owners sometimes prefer, verbalizing tasks with operational mock movements is benifical.

The overall safest gear position for Amphibs in guarding against possible PIC brain freeze, is with the gear UP.

Amphib Gear Ops Pretouchdown Verbalization:

UP for Sea and Ski !
DOWN for Ground !

repeat....

 

[flyingron]

Your best bet is to deflect the aileron fully, then match the flap to that.

That's the Navion short field takeoff setting as well. You can only do this if you have the second poppet added to your flap valve and the flap handle slot in the panel notched for a neutral position (otherwise it's full up or full down).

Actually, the Navion will break ground in an incredibly short distance with full flaps... the climb's a little doggy with all that drag however.

 

[BillTIZ]

T&Gs in a 737? I thought the only complex multi that allowed that was a C-130, and it required special training to do so. It takes a bit of time to spool up jet engines...

Some of us are prohibited from T&Gs on complex aircraft by insurance rules. And the value of T&Gs in the first place is debatable, as it trades number for quality, especially if you're doing anything besides renewing day currency.

I've done T&G in the B-52 and in the B-1. Not a problem.
B-52, all 4 (8) tires down, keep the TP wheels off the ground, power up and go.
In the B-1 we touch on the mains, keep the nose wheel off the ground and go. Full AB, no waiting for spool up.

 

[denverpilot]

I've done T&G in the B-52 and in the B-1. Not a problem.
B-52, all 4 (8) tires down, keep the TP wheels off the ground, power up and go.
In the B-1 we touch on the mains, keep the nose wheel off the ground and go. Full AB, no waiting for spool up.

And the photos of B1s doing that are awesome!