rcaligan
Pre-Flight
...from the red board at 4:30pm EST today.
FYI: Soapbox is gone
- Thread starter rcaligan
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S
SJP
Guest
rcaligan said:
I won't comment other than to say that I wasn't surpised.
So...shall we prepare to welcome boarders ?
AdamZ
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Adam Zucker
No Way getouddahere!
wbarnhill
Final Approach
From the looks of it, anything not 100% aviation related runs the risk of deletion, and the user risks being banned. Jump from one end of the spectrum to the other. I don't think it's a bad thing, but it's going to take a while for things to settle down...
And there went one user...
And there went one user...
wbarnhill said:From the looks of it, anything not 100% aviation related runs the risk of deletion, and the user risks being banned. Jump from one end of the spectrum to the other. I don't think it's a bad thing, but it's going to take a while for things to settle down...
And there went one user...
It's not a good thing. Policing thought and speech is a dangerous game no matter who is playing. I think they are making a major mistake that will not serve AOPA well. If they wanted that roll, they should not have reopened the board. It's a b!tch row to hoe, but if they are your members, they are your members.
wbarnhill
Final Approach
Henning said:
Well I meant that I didn't think getting rid of the soapbox was a bad idea... but this 100% "step an inch out of line and you're gone" idea is not going to work...
What happens to the few aviation related threads that were in Soapbox?
Note that they don't have a "Hangar Talk" forum.
Note that they don't have a "Hangar Talk" forum.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Henning said:
Henning, with all due respect, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Some stuff was way over any line of decency.
AOPA's mission is to promote aviation and aviation safety. That forum was visible to the world. I would not be surprised at all if they didn't get political heat on the Hill. There are some high-stakes battles that the organization is fighting for its members and constituents right now, from the ADIZ to user fees.
A forum like POA, or AvSig, or something else that's not associated with a trade and lobbying organization can tolerate a much broader range of speech precisely because it is not lobbying or asking for something from Congress and the administration.
I am, frankly, surprised the shutdown didn't happen before. Were I in a political position, I'd really have had words with the folks at the organization.
Just my view.
(Chuck, I hope you'd leave this thread open for a bit, as long as the comments don't get out of hand. I think a short discussion of the impact on GA and the political implications of some of that stuff is not too far out of line).
terzap
Line Up and Wait
SJP said:
I think that should be "Stand by to REPEL" boarders...
terry
Brian Austin
En-Route
Not Chuck but I have yet to see any Rules of Conduct issues or 'crossing the line' regarding AOPA's forums.wsuffa said:
This might be a good time for a few reminders, though.
First, remember that Hangar Talk is an open forum for all subjects, aviation or non-aviation, that fall within the PoA Rules of Conduct. You are welcome to post topics and participate in lively debate...as long as it stays civilized and free from personal attacks or remarks.
For those who aren't sure, please feel free to review the Rules of Conduct at http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_faq_rules_of_conduct
Second, while moderators and administrators have broad, all knowing powers
, we can't be everywhere all the time. If you come across a post that you feel violates the RoC, please click the Bad Post link next to the post (red/white triangle). This is YOUR tool to help keep PoA the community the way it has been for almost a year (did you realize it's been darn close to a year already?).Of course, the Bad Post button is NOT a tool for disagreements. If it's not a violation of the RoC but you want some feedback or help with a post, feel free to use the Private Message feature to any of the administrators or moderators. It's more immediate than e-mail and we tend to notice when the stupid box sits in front of the screen.
And remember: everyone starts here with a clean slate, regardless of history elsewhere. Some of us (including myself) have forgotten this in the past (sorry, Phil). It's a very important part of who we are as an aviation community.
Thank you.
Anthony
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I think there needs to be a forum for pilots to talk about issues ancillary to aviation and non-aviation issues. For the most part, I perceive pilots as a pretty wise bunch and I trust their opinions and knowledge more about a lot of issues than from others. I understand AOPA is a lobbying org so I also understand why they pulled Soapbox. I think they simply don't have the manpower to monitor the board and delete uncivilized content fast enough so that the general public don't see.
Thanks to Chuck, Brian and POA in providing such a forum.
Thanks to Chuck, Brian and POA in providing such a forum.
Ghery
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And they pulled the plug right at 4:30 EST. One second it was there and the next it was gone. Not locked, gone. And I made the last post on it (not that anyone could ever tell now).
It will be interesting to see what happens on the other areas.
It will be interesting to see what happens on the other areas.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ghery said:
And AFaIK I never made a single post in that particular forum (and darn proud of it!).
Toby
Cleared for Takeoff
I guess I will have to post my drug and gun questions here. B)
Fast n' Furious
Line Up and Wait
Don't do drugs and hit what you aim at. There ya go!
wsuffa said:
I agree with this completely. I don't think AOPA has any business having a forum section at all, there is no good outcome to the mission of AOPA from having it. BUT they do have it, having resurrected it from a perfectly good technical death, so censoring and cutting and hacking is potentially much more damaging to the mission than the loudmouthed idiots. A loud mouthed idiot with a voter registration card at the end of it is still a voter behind your cause. When you start hushing the crowd behind you, you lose some political clout. I don't agree with the tack a handfull of people take in the abusiveness, and I think suspensions would be a better practice than mass elimination of a forum as well as complete booting of members. If you want to operate in a capacity of public representative, you have to be able to handle whatever comes your way, no choice, and none of what comes to you necessarilly reflects on you. How you handle it says everything about you though.
Areeda
Pattern Altitude
Henning,
Do you feel the rules over at the red board should be ignored and people be able to post anything they want no matter how hateful, vulgar... it is?
IMHO the Litter Box was way out of line.
If I were King it would be a temporary situation to give people time to think and hopefully modify their behavior but I'm happier now that I was this morning.
Do you think any thread that was closed or delete over there would or should be allowed here? I don't.
I'm not sure but I'll bet if ____ made similar comments to Chuck he wouldn't be posting here for a while either.
Just my 2¢.
Joe
Do you feel the rules over at the red board should be ignored and people be able to post anything they want no matter how hateful, vulgar... it is?
IMHO the Litter Box was way out of line.
If I were King it would be a temporary situation to give people time to think and hopefully modify their behavior but I'm happier now that I was this morning.
Do you think any thread that was closed or delete over there would or should be allowed here? I don't.
I'm not sure but I'll bet if ____ made similar comments to Chuck he wouldn't be posting here for a while either.
Just my 2¢.
Joe
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Couldn't say about the drugs, Toby, but as to guns -- well as an M-60 machine gunner and also a .50 cal machine gun gunner, I personally like machine gunsToby said:
So what's the deal with the electrical system in your Cherokee? Resolved?
Gary
En-Route
Henning said:
This IMHO, was the reason, Soapbox could be pretty rough at times and if you CHOSE to post, be prepared for the fallout. Some posters seemed to have difficulty in "handling" themselves. Often I think the abuse was done for no other reason to egg on others, and to inflate their own egos, if you play that game, the results are never good. I'm sorry they shut it down and I understand your point of AOPA being a political organization but it did offer a place that other pilots could have a discussion about things non-aviation related.
Gary
Toby
Cleared for Takeoff
Hope so. She has a new alternator. My mechanic says all the wiring seems to be good, so I hope this resolves the problem. I'll have her back next week -- she's getting a few other beauty treatments before then.RotaryWingBob said:
Brian Austin
En-Route
First of all, keep the names out of it. As I mentioned earlier, what happens there, stays there as far as we're concerned.Areeda said:
Having said that, I know that Chuck doesn't take stuff like that personally. If anything, you could probably get away with more TOWARD the administrators than anyone else. Don't try testing it too much, though.
Areeda
Pattern Altitude
Sorry I didn't realize that. Won't happen again.Brian Austin said:
Ad hominems are not my style. I will not to try it at all. I was just trying to make the point that swearing at the administrators is usually not the best way to get policies changed.Having said that, I know that Chuck doesn't take stuff like that personally. If anything, you could probably get away with more TOWARD the administrators than anyone else. Don't try testing it too much, though.
Joe
Brian Austin
En-Route
No problem. I'm not worried about it. We prefer to let what happens there, stay there and not carry baggage over (at least as much as possible).Areeda said:
I figured. I was addressing everyone else, really. I've already noted a number of new names in the member list and our numbers shot up a little higher than average today. It was more for their benefit than anyone else's.Areeda said:
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
I guess I see it sorta like the ADIZ.
Everybody was warned, repeatedly.
When access was granted again, everyone had to read and agree to terms.
Everybody was warned again.
Someone posted something a few weeks ago about a crackdown coming.
Yet, despite all this, folks chose to deliberately ignore the warnings, the agreement, etc.
So, it was closed, permanantly.
As a collective group of smart people, we have met the enemy and he is us.
Everybody was warned, repeatedly.
When access was granted again, everyone had to read and agree to terms.
Everybody was warned again.
Someone posted something a few weeks ago about a crackdown coming.
Yet, despite all this, folks chose to deliberately ignore the warnings, the agreement, etc.
So, it was closed, permanantly.
As a collective group of smart people, we have met the enemy and he is us.
The thing is, among friends, you can disagree vehemently without even thinking of doing something to hurt your friend.
What was happening over there was horrid- foul, vitriolic and offensive behavior, from one participant directed at another.
There are, here, people with whom I know I disagree on matters political, but as far as I am concerned, that machts nichts, because these are the people I call friends, my flying community. I know that, among these people, there are a great many who would, if I were in need, come running (literally and figuratively). This, as I hope you all know, as I would do for you.
For whatever reason (and I do not for one moment believe I can divine why), people who would never dream of committing offensive actions in a face-to-face setting, felt perfectly comfortable using foul language and saying evil things.
Interestingly enough, some of them post here, as well, but for some reason, there is a preservation of civility here.
I agree with Henning, that there should not be AOPA-sanctioned censorship of thought, but that is not what happened here; it was the termination of continued abuse, and it had to happen.
We will not allow what happened there, to happen here.
My friends will not do that to me, and I would never do that to my friends.
What was happening over there was horrid- foul, vitriolic and offensive behavior, from one participant directed at another.
There are, here, people with whom I know I disagree on matters political, but as far as I am concerned, that machts nichts, because these are the people I call friends, my flying community. I know that, among these people, there are a great many who would, if I were in need, come running (literally and figuratively). This, as I hope you all know, as I would do for you.
For whatever reason (and I do not for one moment believe I can divine why), people who would never dream of committing offensive actions in a face-to-face setting, felt perfectly comfortable using foul language and saying evil things.
Interestingly enough, some of them post here, as well, but for some reason, there is a preservation of civility here.
I agree with Henning, that there should not be AOPA-sanctioned censorship of thought, but that is not what happened here; it was the termination of continued abuse, and it had to happen.
We will not allow what happened there, to happen here.
My friends will not do that to me, and I would never do that to my friends.
Areeda said:
That's just it, the problem is in how it was handled. There was a handfull of people abusing the rules. If you knocked out 5 names, you got rid of nearly all the vulgarity. So for that they shut down an entire forum? It gives a bad impression, a lack of depth to their thought levels. A more moderate approach of enforcement may have appeared better. Cross the line into vulgar, hatefull stuff, should get them a 3 day suspension from posting, 10 for subsequent violations. He either learns, or we hear from him once every 10 days, kinda like visiting your crazy uncle in the state hospital, weird but ok, there but for the grace of god stuff....
simple.
As long as there is balanced discourse though, even if some of it is the raving lunatic variety, political discourse on AOPA's board is a positive factor in their strength. All politicians know that political lunatics from both frindges vote at hire rates than moderate rational people. So really, politically, it was doing AOPA no harm as it stood. Was it annoying? Yes at times, but dang it I just figured out how to do this:
squauwk!!!
now I won't get to use it everytime SONAR5 annoyes me
.
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Gary said:
I'm sorry that I left you the impression I thought it was a bad thing to have SoapBox. I think you may have mistook what I thought the political hazards actually were. I think the hazard lies in Draconian unilatteral undisscussed unforumed measures. "Kooks who vote are still clout, why are you hiding them?" if I wanted some leverage on AOPA in a tight dispute, I may go there. The fact that there are kooks in my organization is easily answered with, "yes we do, so do you, our kooks vote, how about yours?" Kooks are the scourge of every political, we'll say movement for lack of me coming up with a better word. But they pretty much occur more or less equally across the board. Rank and file kooks are not news, leadership kooks however.... Everyone tries to hide their kooks, but Andy Warhol and Mr. Murphy must have been buddies, because every kook gets his 15 minutes of fame, and it's at the most inopportune time.
Steve
En-Route
"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons." - General MacArthur
RotaryWingBob said:Couldn't say about the drugs, Toby, but as to guns -- well as an M-60 machine gunner and also a .50 cal machine gun gunner, I personally like machine guns
judypilot
Cleared for Takeoff
Ah, once again I'm saved by blissful ignorance. I'd logged on to the red board only once since it was reopened. Decided I like it here better (and at the CPA web forum even better).
All this talk about censorship is rot. Censorship is an official act by the government and there are good reasons to fear that. As for behavior amongst ourselves, I think sometimes the world could use a little more censorship. No one seems ashamed any more about their behavior. Shame was a great tool to get people to acknowledge that civility requires all of us to learn and exercise self control. We are social animals. We need to behave socially. That doesn't mean we become carbon copies of each other nor does it mean we cannot express our opinions. It just means we should do so with civility. This has really come home to me in the last year. I'm a manager in an environment that is unusually tolerant of what we charitably call "eccentric" behavior. But I'm starting to draw the line. If someone's behavior makes it hard for others to do their jobs and interferes with their own productivity, then as a manager, I've got the right to draw the line. I've forced some people to look at themselves, and they don't like what they see. Gradually, things are becoming a lot more civil. No one has been suppressed, and communication is actually better.
Judy
All this talk about censorship is rot. Censorship is an official act by the government and there are good reasons to fear that. As for behavior amongst ourselves, I think sometimes the world could use a little more censorship. No one seems ashamed any more about their behavior. Shame was a great tool to get people to acknowledge that civility requires all of us to learn and exercise self control. We are social animals. We need to behave socially. That doesn't mean we become carbon copies of each other nor does it mean we cannot express our opinions. It just means we should do so with civility. This has really come home to me in the last year. I'm a manager in an environment that is unusually tolerant of what we charitably call "eccentric" behavior. But I'm starting to draw the line. If someone's behavior makes it hard for others to do their jobs and interferes with their own productivity, then as a manager, I've got the right to draw the line. I've forced some people to look at themselves, and they don't like what they see. Gradually, things are becoming a lot more civil. No one has been suppressed, and communication is actually better.
Judy
Ken Ibold
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My last post in Soapbox: "Good riddance."lancefisher said:
infotango
Line Up and Wait
Couldn't agree more Ken.
I wonder how much longer AOPA keeps the entire forum.
I wonder how much longer AOPA keeps the entire forum.
spiderweb
Final Approach
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I really don't think that is what he meant. I think he was agreeing with the "good riddance" sentiment directed at Soapbox. He wonders how much longer AOPA keeps the whole thing going, and I do, too. I am frankly surprised they brought the boards back at all. Nothing changed.Anthony said:
infotango
Line Up and Wait
Oooh no I don't feel that way at all; I love the forums and I think that they are great. The advice I've gotten from red and blue has been priceless. So no, the webboards wern't useless it's just that the Soapbox was waay out of hand. The comment about keeping the boards was only a prediction, and not a suggestion; I think that AOPA will tire of having to police an unruly forum in addition to fighting for aviatior's rights.Anthony said:
EDIT: I just noticed, Ben said everything I wanted too, and a whole lot better than I did at that.
Anthony
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Anthony
infotango said:
I think you said it well also. I don't think there will be a need for a lot of policing with Soapbox gone. IMHO, if the moderator took action against the few people that were causing the problems, there would have been little to no need for further policing. Sorry I misinterpreted your post.