FYI: Soapbox is gone

Anthony said:
I think you said it well also. I don't think there will be a need for a lot of policing with Soapbox gone. IMHO, if the moderator took action against the few people that were causing the problems, there would have been little to no need for further policing. Sorry I misinterpreted your post.
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actually, even one person deleted would have been a vast improvement. :D
 
woodstock said:
actually, even one person deleted would have been a vast improvement. :D
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I wonder who that could be? ;)
 
Anthony said:
I find it ironic that some feel the entire AOPA webboards are useless and unecessary, but yet post on another aviation board about it and other topics.
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Tony:

Isn't it human nature to want to "talk" to others that share interests?? We are all social animals (well, at least most of us:rolleyes: ) and Soapbox was such an outlet. I'm sorry its gone, found it to be a fun place to go and read what other people thought, it's a shame that the abuse escalated and ended up being closed. So in the absence of Soapbox, we will all find another place to post our musings!

Gary
 
Gary said:
Isn't it human nature to want to "talk" to others that share interests?? We are all social animals (well, at least most of us:rolleyes: ) and Soapbox was such an outlet. I'm sorry its gone, found it to be a fun place to go and read what other people thought, it's a shame that the abuse escalated and ended up being closed. So in the absence of Soapbox, we will all find another place to post our musings!
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So true my friend. I respect a lot of pilot's opinions on the economy, cars, trucks, motorcycles where to vacation, the housing market, the environment, etc. Now we are not allowed to ask people we know are experts in various fields questions that could help us in our lives other than aviation.
 
Anthony said:
So true my friend. I respect a lot of pilot's opinions on the economy, cars, trucks, motorcycles where to vacation, the housing market, the environment, etc. Now we are not allowed to ask people we know are experts in various fields questions that could help us in our lives other than aviation.
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Exactly the way I feel, Anthony. The collective knowledge of the folks on these boards is really something. I'll certainly miss that aspect over there, and I stated it in the last few minutes. I know we've all benefitted from it in one way or another. The other stuff was just entertainment.
 
well, we keep coming back to a few people just simply couldn't refrain from p*ssing in the soup - time and time again. I agree, it's nice to have a place to ask all of these things - but AOPA evidently saw it as an eventual liability.
 
Maybe POA could change the board's color to red for a moment of silence. Or, to make a statement.
 
Anthony said:
So true my friend. I respect a lot of pilot's opinions on the economy, cars, trucks, motorcycles where to vacation, the housing market, the environment, etc. Now we are not allowed to ask people we know are experts in various fields questions that could help us in our lives other than aviation.
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I've avoided this thread because I thought the issue has been beaten to death. But this post...your post, Anthony, has made reading this thread worthwhile. You make a very good point. Garcon, a point for the gentleman at the next table.
 
Richard said:
Maybe POA could change the board's color to red for a moment of silence. Or, to make a statement.
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Ya know, I've been fairly silent on this one but we need to remember something here:

Only ONE of the forums at AOPA is gone. Not ALL of them. There is still a vast wealth of knowledge, expertise and experience waiting for anyone willing to use it in a nice, civil manner. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater here.

I'm not a big visitor there, primarily because I'm so darn busy with everything else in life that I can only devote so much time to reading forums and PoA is my personal priority. But it was there for my basic questions during my PPL a few years ago and, God willing, it will be there for my IR and first plane purchase. Yes, the same questions will get asked here...but numbers count and we're simply not there (yet).

Now if I could just get my butt away from school and work long enough to get back in the air again...
 
I will say that there is one good thing about Soapbox being gone. I can browse through the red board in a lot less time, now. :D
 
The unfrozen Cromagnon lawyer knows that censorship is ultimately always, "BAD".
 
Without that voice of dissention, even if it upsets you or offends you, nothing changes. AOPA Soapbox, like it or not, made people think; well, it was supposed to. But obviously some folks prefer to live in their insulated world and feign surprise when the inevetable occurs due to inattention or lack of concern.

I will join those ranks now, because I have been told that my thoughts and opinions no longer count and they are not valid. No one wants to hurt us, GA is in great condition, prices are good, airfields are opening all over the place......it must be, because I am not allowed the freedom to think otherwise.

And I will not talk about it further, because to do so puts me in jeopardy. Sounds a bit like censorship because it is.

-30-
 
F.W. Birdman said:
Sounds a bit like censorship because it is.

-30-
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I disagree. It was not censorship. It was a case of a small group of participants who knew the rules, were reminded of the rules and chose to not follow the rules. The sandbox has now been removed from the playground because sand was repeatedly kicked in others faces. The offenders should have been, but were not, removed from the playground and made to sit in the Principals office. Now all have to suffer because of the actions of a few.

It's a shame because the Soapbox forum could have been great.

Sigh.
 
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NC Pilot said:
I disagree. It was not censorship. It was a case of a small group of participants who knew the rules, were reminded of the rules and chose to not follow the rules. The sandbox has now been removed from the playground because sand was repeatedly kicked in others faces. The offenders should have been, but were not removed from the playground and made to sit in the Principals office. Now all have to suffer because of the actions of a few.

It's a shame because the Soapbox forum could have been great.

Sigh.
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totally agree Mark.
 
Wow.

OK, so I admit it, I haven't looked at the forums all weekend. I just found out about the change at AOPA.

Can't say I'm surprised - might not be the way I'd choose to calm down the tone of the forums, but can't say I don't understand why AOPA chose just to get rid of it either. You can either get rid of the people causing problems or the environment in which the problems occur. They chose the latter.

So I've spent the last few minutes reading the thread, and I just wanted to take a moment to state my 100% agreement with Brian on everything he's said both about AOPA's decision, and our policies here. There, that's done. :)

That said, as always, PoA welcomes anyone who's interested in discussing aviation and aviation related matters, and "Hangar Talk" is our 'open forum' for discussions of all things not aviation related, so political discussion and civil political debate is welcome, so long as it stays within the rules of conduct.

So like Brian reminded us earlier, "What happens at PoA stays at PoA."

As a final note, I'd like to encourage everyone to re-read this discussion: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2663

Hopefully that will help remind everyone of how we expect people to behave here. :) So far we've had precious little difficulty in that regard. Lets keep it that way. :)

Thanks everyone, for landing at Pilots of America!
C(G)H
 
F.W. Birdman said:
Without that voice of dissention, even if it upsets you or offends you, nothing changes. AOPA Soapbox, like it or not, made people think; well, it was supposed to. But obviously some folks prefer to live in their insulated world and feign surprise when the inevetable occurs due to inattention or lack of concern.
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I couldn't disagree with you more. I think most of the posts were to get attention and stir up the proverbial pot. Basically the formula was "Insert any subject with all caps and lots of stars in frond and behind that any liberal/consertative wouldn't agree with and press Submit" and then sit back and see what came out of the woodwork. I mean sure it was entertaining for about 30 or so individuals that actively - and creatively (this is a compliment) - participated in the action - but for the majority of people who lurk/posted there it is of my opinion that the SoapBox added no value because of how the content was presented and argued (not necessarily the content itself).
 
F.W. Birdman said:
But obviously some folks prefer to live in their insulated world and feign surprise when the inevetable occurs due to inattention or lack of concern.
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So the answer to that was the CONSTANT barrage of extreme political viewpoints from both sides? I've created my own insulated world, and I'm happy in it because I manage it. Soapbox was a vehicle for pushy, overly opinionated people to stick something in people's faces 24/7 because they think the average person is a sheep and isn't intelligent enough to form their own opinions.

Equate it to having Rush Limbaugh or FNC playing in one ear, and Al Franken or NPR in the other. Puke. :vomit:

F.W. Birdman said:
...GA is in great condition, prices are good, airfields are opening all over the place......it must be, because I am not allowed the freedom to think otherwise.
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Sounds aviation related to me. I'm sure these topics are still very welcome. Unfortunately, under Soapbox, 99% of the posts were not about these topics, and if they were, it would have taken about 3 posts under a thread to spin it into politics, or religion, or the military.

Greg
182RG
 
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Richard said:
I've avoided this thread because I thought the issue has been beaten to death. But this post...your post, Anthony, has made reading this thread worthwhile. You make a very good point. Garcon, a point for the gentleman at the next table.
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Thanks Richard. What do they say? Even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a while. :) Actually I borrowed that line from another member who posted it recently on the other board and it amused me.

I think there are several good points that have been made and I think Mark (NC Pilot) hit the nail on the head as to why Soapbox was removed.
 
NC Pilot said:
I disagree. It was not censorship. It was a case of a small group of participants who knew the rules, were reminded of the rules and chose to not follow the rules.
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I posted this in one of the threads over on AOPA but I think it's a good point: the rules were so open-ended and vague that MOST of the posts and posters were not in violation as they were written. They may have been violating the 'spirit' of the rules but that's too subjective of a call for that type of environment. One or two sentences regarding behavior is all that the agreement consisted of. I'm REALLY having a hard time finding it, though, even via search in the member's section.
 
NC Pilot said:
I disagree. It was not censorship. It was a case of a small group of participants who knew the rules, were reminded of the rules and chose to not follow the rules. The sandbox has now been removed from the playground because sand was repeatedly kicked in others faces. The offenders should have been, but were not, removed from the playground and made to sit in the Principals office. Now all have to suffer because of the actions of a few.
It's a shame because the Soapbox forum could have been great. Sigh.
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Absolutely, Mark - I agree one hundred percent with this. I always liked the idea of a Penalty Box - a brief "time out" for those who refuse to play well with others.
 
And like I said, I am not going to debate it. You people have your opinions, I have mine. The only thing that will change that either is our deaths or ....someone crashing airliners into the WTC? No, that didn't work; they'll have to try harder to convince some folks.

End of my participation in discussion on the matter.
 
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Anthony said:
So true my friend. I respect a lot of pilot's opinions on the economy, cars, trucks, motorcycles where to vacation, the housing market, the environment, etc. Now we are not allowed to ask people we know are experts in various fields questions that could help us in our lives other than aviation.
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Agreed completely.

It is that breadth of discussion that makes friends, on and off the board.

That's the big loss.
 
Anthony said:
So true my friend. I respect a lot of pilot's opinions on the economy, cars, trucks, motorcycles where to vacation, the housing market, the environment, etc. Now we are not allowed to ask people we know are experts in various fields questions that could help us in our lives other than aviation.
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Well, there's always PM's, but I think you're right about the value in querying other pilots about non-aviation issues. I also think that Soapbox served another purpose in that it provided a specific address for the not so useful policital gibberish that will now have to be policed aggressively or it will pollute the remaining forums there.
 
F.W. Birdman said:
And like I said, I am not going to debate it. You people have your opinions, I have mine. The only thing that will change that either is our deaths or ....someone crashing airliners into the WTC? No, that dodn't work; they'll have to try harder to convince some folks.

End of my participation in discussion on the matter.
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S'OK KP, we all have to remember that the fundamental purpose of posting our opinions is to make them known to others and compare philosophies, not to "convert" anyone to one's own personal point of view.
 
lancefisher said:
S'OK KP, we all have to remember that the fundamental purpose of posting our opinions is to make them known to others and compare philosophies, not to "convert" anyone to one's own personal point of view.
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amen...
 
lancefisher said:
Well, there's always PM's, but I think you're right about the value in querying other pilots about non-aviation issues. I also think that Soapbox served another purpose in that it provided a specific address for the not so useful policital gibberish that will now have to be policed aggressively or it will pollute the remaining forums there.
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Once you set the rules, you must set the example, then hold every one responsible, if not, the rules mean nothing.
 
lancefisher said:
S'OK KP, we all have to remember that the fundamental purpose of posting our opinions is to make them known to others and compare philosophies, not to "convert" anyone to one's own personal point of view.
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And NOT to lambast them for not already agreeing with one's own personal view.
 
NC19143 said:
Once you set the rules, you must set the example, then hold every one responsible, if not, the rules mean nothing.
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The rules were too open ended for any type of enforcement outside of the few bans/suspensions that came up. For all intents and purposes, they WERE playing by the rules as presented. If those changed, some notification should have been issued.

We'd get upset if the FAA changed the rules on us but didn't tell us...and then threw an enforcement action at us.
 
Brian Austin said:
The rules were too open ended for any type of enforcement outside of the few bans/suspensions that came up. For all intents and purposes, they WERE playing by the rules as presented. If those changed, some notification should have been issued.

We'd get upset if the FAA changed the rules on us but didn't tell us...and then threw an enforcement action at us.
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Yes, but Robert warned folks over and over. I recall Woody Cahill getting on the board a couple of times to warn people. Yet it remained unchanged. It's not like there was no warning at all: even Robert's farewell contained a warning.

AOPA would have a massive PR problem if some of the stuff on there got either into the hands of political opponants or even the public. Some of the stuff that was posted was clearly the kind of defamation that could get both the organization and posters hauled into court. Yeah, I know that Zeran vs AOL generally limits the liability of the provider from damages, but AOPA would be dragged into a case to prove who the poster was, the IP addresses, discuss the moderation (if any), etc, etc. All of that adds up to bad publicity and costs. You need only look at the AvWeb case to see the potential impact.

At the least, the risks of a completely open board distracted from AOPA's mission. At worst, it could have cost a lot of money and bad publicity. Remember that one of the reasons the board was taken down a year ago was the result of complaints from a vendor.....

I know I'm not going to change anyone's opinion on this. I will tell you that I've worked for years in a media environment where we had to deal with the same kinds of concerns. Sometimes, even if you're right, you lose.
 
wsuffa said:
Yes, but Robert warned folks over and over. I recall Woody Cahill getting on the board a couple of times to warn people. Yet it remained unchanged. It's not like there was no warning at all: even Robert's farewell contained a warning.
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I agree but everything was NOT specific and didn't provide either rule changes or examples of existing violations. "Better tone down your rhetoric" is hardly instructive. Addressing individual users via PM would have been more productive but we'll never know if it happened unless someone steps forward.

I'm not arguing with the fact that it was probably a better decision, given its current direction. My issue is with the significant change in policy without any notification other than a few warnings. That's not a change, that's an interpretation. Remember one of the reasons for the delay in getting the forums back up and running? It was being reviewed by their lawyers. After all that time for review, all we got was a two sentence "be good and don't violate any laws" kind of Terms of Service. Aside from the few threats and vulgar language, 99.9% of the posts never violated the EXISTING rules and policies as were known by the users.

THAT'S my issue.
 
Brian Austin said:
I agree but everything was NOT specific and didn't provide either rule changes or examples of existing violations. "Better tone down your rhetoric" is hardly instructive. Addressing individual users via PM would have been more productive but we'll never know if it happened unless someone steps forward.
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The problem had become simply one of appearance I think Brian. The forum was not about debate, or the sharing of ideas, or freedom of speech - it had devolved to a Left Wing vs Right Wing epeen size comparison contest - everyone knew it, and both sides refused to lift themselves out of the gutter and get over it. Heck, one of the mature debating tools was one step above yelling 'Nyah Nyah neNyah nyah"...with a few 'yo momma' barbs thrown in for good measure.

Robert warned us. It was ignored
Woody warned us. It was ignored
Robert warned us again. It was slammed as censorship and insults were thrown as to who was responsible for the warning.
woody warned us again. It was ignored.
The forum was closed because we just wouldn't take 'stop it' for an answer.
Now both sides blame each other, and then blame AOPA for not warning them.

Was it done a little heavy handedly ? Sure - but the children didn't seem to be getting the 'timeout' message...

...and now I'm annoyed because I said I wouldn't comment.


(fyi - for those that don't know - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epeen)
 
Bill, you're one of the longest members of both the AOPA board and this one. I parted ways with AOPA over a year ago as a result of their continuing appeasement policy regarding TFRs and the ADIZ.
Don't know if you were there way back when the anonymous feature was AOPA board-wide. I recall one incident where Mitch from CA was anonymously threatened- "we know where you live", etc. But the anonymous feature continued for over 2 years after that, despite many of us pointing out the fatal flaws in such a policy. It was only when Wolk successfully sued AvWeb that action was taken to limit the anonymous feature. As usual you are correct- "follow the money". APOA percieves a threat, and they are reacting. But it is too late. Their prior policies have infected their members so inclined, and their apparent failure to act in a predictable fashion penalizing only those who transgress creates an uncertainty certain to perpetuate "problems". I made a prediction of the AOPA board's demise a couple of month's before I left [long before the temporary shutdown], and that prediction seems even more accurate today.

Let's all be glad PoA is here.
 
I look forward to belonging to a online community that is more closely moderated, and more genteel overall.:D

People are throwing around the term "moderated" awfully loosely when talking about the red board. It wasn't moderated. It was looked over occasionally by the systems administrator, which IMHO isn't the same thing, though technically I suppose that person met the definition.

The administration of moderator duties was very inconsistent, which is no surprise considering it was one person's part time duty to look over a huge amount of posts. IF they had put just a little more time into it, or IF they had followed several, several members helpful suggestions regarding how it was run, this would never have happened.

Anyway, I won't be abandoning AOPA quite yet, and may occasionally post something over there. It may not even be aviation related :hairraise: . But I'm liking it here already.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I look forward to belonging to a online community that is more closely moderated, and more genteel overall.:D

People are throwing around the term "moderated" awfully loosely when talking about the red board. It wasn't moderated. It was looked over occasionally by the systems administrator, which IMHO isn't the same thing, though technically I suppose that person met the definition.

The administration of moderator duties was very inconsistent, which is no surprise considering it was one person's part time duty to look over a huge amount of posts. IF they had put just a little more time into it, or IF they had followed several, several members helpful suggestions regarding how it was run, this would never have happened.

Anyway, I won't be abandoning AOPA quite yet, and may occasionally post something over there. It may not even be aviation related :hairraise: . But I'm liking it here already.
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Same here and it seems things are quite a bit better controlled over here anyway so there shouldnt be a problem..
 
alaskaflyer said:
People are throwing around the term "moderated" awfully loosely when talking about the red board. It wasn't moderated. It was looked over occasionally by the systems administrator, which IMHO isn't the same thing, though technically I suppose that person met the definition.
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Actually, I have it on good authority that the forums have, indeed, been moderated (as in policed by dedicated, volunteer moderators) for some time.

Back when Robert made the "we are unmoderated" statement, they were running forum software that was almost older than the 1 part of the binary numbering system.

When they changed to vBulletin, they also changed the support arrangements.

Now that soapbox is gone, the need for volunteer mods should drop significantly. (Although I won't be surprised if there's a temporary increase in a need for them, as some people will inevitably decide to test the boundaries.)
 
Darrell111 said:
Same here and it seems things are quite a bit better controlled over here anyway so there shouldnt be a problem..
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i disagree, not "things" are better controlled, 'people' better control themselves.
 
Greebo said:
Actually, I have it on good authority that the forums have, indeed, been moderated (as in policed by dedicated, volunteer moderators) for some time.
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I had noticed that for a little while based on when things would be locked.
 
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