Fox News Reports Plane Violated DC No Fly Zone

NBC Nightly News, Brian Williams just said FAA is expected to revoke the license of one of the men (obviously the PIC!).
 
T Bone said:
NBC Nightly News, Brian Williams just said FAA is expected to revoke the license of one of the men (obviously the PIC!).
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He also said that the plane flew directly over the VP's residence (off-limits even before 9-11), directly over the CIA (no prior P/R area), and less than 2 miles from the White House. That would have him traversing P-56, plus the river approach to DCA.

Even an OLD chart would let him know he was in trouble.
 
From the Don Imus show:

NEWS QUOTE OF THE DAY

Imus: "Speaking of that scene yesterday in Washington... Bernard made the observation that it looked like a Godzilla movie. Just hoards of fat people, all of them, just running for their lives."

Sen. John McCain: "(Laughing) There were more calories burned than since the British marched on Washington! I'll tell you it was something. It was ludicrous. It was ludicrous. Cops galloping around on horses, you saw it, nobody knowing where to go... running from the Capitol to go near the Senate Office building. Suppose they miss. It certainly shows we've made tremendous progress since 9/11."

(Moments Later)

Imus: "On a serious note, one would have thought that somebody would have given some thought to all of this, on how they would evacuate the capitol. "

Sen. John McCain: "I think they should of. I will say, I heard somebody say that there are something like thirty airfields within a twenty mile radius, and somebody can take off and get very quickly... You know you saw how small that airplane was. Suppose it was a very rapid airplane. You remember not long ago, before the President's inauguration, the Governor of Kentucky I believe it was, was coming in to the National Airport, and they didn't have... IFF got a little bit off and came very close to the White House end. I don't know how you exactly handle this situation with a crowded airspace. You've seen that picture of the radar screen on any day practically, on the East Coast. It looks like a very crowded Christmas tree. It's very tough. The moral of the story is, just like on our border, which we can't control, you have to go where the terrorists are. You can't wait for them to fly a plane into our airspace."
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wsuffa said:
He also said that the plane flew directly over the VP's residence (off-limits even before 9-11), directly over the CIA (no prior P/R area), and less than 2 miles from the White House. That would have him traversing P-56, plus the river approach to DCA.

Even an OLD chart would let him know he was in trouble.
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They said he only turned for the VP's residence after he finally realized he was being intercepted and acknowledged the instruction to land on 121.5.

The guy is 69 years old. I think it's looking like it is a case of him thinking he had to avoid P-areas and honestly having no idea there was an ADIZ or an FRZ. I wonder how current he was with landings and a BFR. It's amazing, but he won't be the last old pilot who learns this way.
 
T Bone said:
NBC Nightly News, Brian Williams just said FAA is expected to revoke the license of one of the men (obviously the PIC!).
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no matter how much they bunged it up, you still gotta feel bad for them. :(
 
woodstock said:
no matter how much they bunged it up, you still gotta feel bad for them. :(
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I belong to the school that we should write the PIC and thank him for setting us all back.

"WEEEeee don't need no stinkin current chart....even an old chart....".

Four years ago when my father decompensated after lying to the Customs Agent thereby risking the equivalent of a college education, I simply informed him this was the last trip. Ever. It was.

We don't need any of this. No matter how bad we feel.
 
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woodstock said:
no matter how much they bunged it up, you still gotta feel bad for them. :([/QUOE]

I feel bad for them too, especially the PIC, but I feel much worst for all the rest of GA & the USA because of the situation in general and particularly, for their brand of input to the already strained system.
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Dave Krall CFII said:
woodstock said:
no matter how much they bunged it up, you still gotta feel bad for them. :([/QUOE]

I feel bad for them too, especially the PIC, but I feel much worst for all the rest of GA & the USA because of the situation in general and particularly, for their brand of input to the already strained system.
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yeah, I know. I sure wouldn't want to be them today.
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Well, I've been called an unsympathetic b**** before, so I'll own that for this post: I have NO sympathy for the PIC. I don't care how old he is. Flying is a privilege that we (and presumably he) worked hard for. Even before the ADIZ, there were rules. Whether you cared about, were annoyed by, wanted to ignore those rules, they were there and it's been known for decades that you flaunt the rules at your peril. Anyone with half a brain cell knows that "peril" became a lot more real after 9/11. Anyone who flies anywhere near that airspace knows he or she had better know how to navigate. It is impossible NOT to know about that stuff--I rarely fly any closer to DC than about 2000 miles, and I get information about that airspace every time I get a briefing.

I think he deserves everything he gets from this and then some. God, if in 69 years he hasn't learned this simple lesson of life, is there any hope?

His passenger is, of course, another story, although if he's a rated pilot (stories mixed on this), then I have maybe half a gram more sympathy for him.

Judy
 
Neither the pilot nor the student pilot have been home. Sounds like the pilot is camped out somewhere with his wife, at an "undisclosed" location. The press is reportedly camped out at both of their houses, and the local rag was questioning the pilot's 71 year old sister today on page 1, of the front section of the paper.

They are going to have reminders for some time of the stupidity of this thing. Not to mention the FAA action.

I hope the pilot was honorable and took full responsibility, so we do scare off another student. But, if the student had any hand in the navigation etc and was foolish enough to say so, I wouldn't rule out FAA action on him either.

At least, for the present anyway, both guys are refusing to talk to the press. First smart thing they have done.

Our local press will keep the issue alive out here, at least until after the now announced June 7 meeting of this club. What were they thinkin' announcing their meeting time/date? The press will be there like locusts.

Jim G
 
judypilot said:
His passenger is, of course, another story, although if he's a rated pilot (stories mixed on this), then I have maybe half a gram more sympathy for him.
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No Troy D. Martin in the public database as a pilot (one mechanic in South Carolina of that name). If he's a rated pilot, he opted to keep his name off the list, which few folks do (even Jimmy Buffett is on there -- his Class 2 medical expired in October -- guess he's not flying for hire these days). Most reports list Martin as a student pilot, and if so, since he's not on the database, he must have gotten his student/medical certificate very recently.
 
Ron Levy said:
No Troy D. Martin in the public database as a pilot (one mechanic in South Carolina of that name). If he's a rated pilot, he opted to keep his name off the list, which few folks do (even Jimmy Buffett is on there -- his Class 2 medical expired in October -- guess he's not flying for hire these days). Most reports list Martin as a student pilot, and if so, since he's not on the database, he must have gotten his student/medical certificate very recently.
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To a lot of folks, being a "student pilot" could mean he took one lesson some time ago, to some it could mean he just thought about it.
 
Re: Washington Post Story on ADIZ

Well, thank you Mr. Schaeffer (sheesh). But a real thank you to Student pilot Martin for averting the first real GA shootdown.
 
Re: Washington Post Story on ADIZ

bbchien said:
Well, thank you Mr. Schaeffer (sheesh). But a real thank you to Student pilot Martin for averting the first real GA shootdown.
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Indeed. I'd have to say the pilot's problems go waaaay beyond simple navigation deficiencies. Man's got zero judgement. I can see looking out the window to check weather if you are going to be zipping around the pattern or just puttering around home. That doesn't quite cut it for a trip from PA to NC. Got lost just after leaving home, and didn't bother to call anyone or take any of the other actions available to help get unlost. Then FROZE, for heaven's sake. A person prone to freezing under stress has no business in the cockpit. I wonder if the FAA decided to go for revocation after finding that out?

Glad the student was able to save his bacon, and ours. I know there are some bloodthirsty folks who seriously think these guys deserve the death penalty, but that is shortsighted, ignoring the moral issues of killing people who have committed no criminal act. I will lay money that the day fighters shoot down a GA plane and kill American citizens who haven't committed a crime will be the last day GA flies in this country for quite some time, especially if a couple kids are killed. There will be nothing but trouble come from that, as it should be.
 
even at 30 hours I myself would still check weather, or at minimum make sure my pilot did. anyone I've gone up with goes over everything with me and I wouldn't go up if we didn't. I'd also make sure we had current charts, and etc. wow.

it almost sounds like this guy just putt-putts around locally and thought hey let's just jump in and go. you can do that in a car (still....) but not a plane.

I bet the student is too ashamed to show his face for a long time. wonder how he feels about the PIC.

I hope to God they never shoot down a plane. we are truly our own worst enemies - I think the hysteria has reached a tipping point.
 
Our "student" pilot was just a passenger legally. There's some question as to whether he even has a medical certificate since his name isn't in the database. I can't see anything the FAA can or should do to him.
 
Saw a report somewhere that the Feds had "dismantled" the plane, and it's up to the owners to get it put back together. That alone will be hundreds of $$$, especially if the feds weren't particularly careful about the way they took it apart.
 
judypilot said:
Well, I've been called an unsympathetic b**** before, so I'll own that for this post: I have NO sympathy for the PIC. I don't care how old he is. Flying is a privilege that we (and presumably he) worked hard for. Even before the ADIZ, there were rules. Whether you cared about, were annoyed by, wanted to ignore those rules, they were there and it's been known for decades that you flaunt the rules at your peril. Anyone with half a brain cell knows that "peril" became a lot more real after 9/11. Anyone who flies anywhere near that airspace knows he or she had better know how to navigate. It is impossible NOT to know about that stuff--I rarely fly any closer to DC than about 2000 miles, and I get information about that airspace every time I get a briefing.

I think he deserves everything he gets from this and then some. God, if in 69 years he hasn't learned this simple lesson of life, is there any hope?

His passenger is, of course, another story, although if he's a rated pilot (stories mixed on this), then I have maybe half a gram more sympathy for him.

Judy
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What Judy said....

Well, except the b**** part. I'm called an unsympathetic b******.
 
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According to Phil Boyer, the emergency revocation notice was served on Jim Sheaffer yesterday evening. I understand that Sheaffer is an AOPA Legal Services Plan member, and entitled to representation under that plan, but whether he will fight the revocation is not known. Under the Hoover Bill, Sheaffer has 48 hours to appeal the action to the full NTSB, but a knowledgeable aviation lawyer told me that there is absolutely no chance such an appeal would succeed.

Personally, I think the FAA did the right thing, and I hope that if it is appealed, the NTSB sustains the FAA action.
 
Ron; do you think the FAA will go back and talk to the CFI who gave him his last BFR as well? Could the CFI end up in any hot water?
 
Ron Levy said:
Personally, I think the FAA did the right thing, and I hope that if it is appealed, the NTSB sustains the FAA action.
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Agree.
 
Ron Levy said:
Personally, I think the FAA did the right thing, and I hope that if it is appealed, the NTSB sustains the FAA action.
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I really don't think ether of the pilots will ever step into a GA plane again. I would almost bet a $100 bill on each one that if the FAA does not take their pilots/student pilot certificate the trash can will. Can you imagine the phone calls, letters, and harassment that they will/have gone through (I'm not saying they don't deserve it...).

The sad thing is if 50 pilots made stupid mistakes over the next week and all of them ended up in fatal accidents it would probably miss the front page action that this incident had.
 
Iceman said:
I really don't think ether of the pilots will ever step into a GA plane again. I would almost bet a $100 bill on each one that if the FAA does not take their pilots/student pilot certificate the trash can will.
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While the case against the pilot, "Jim" Sheaffer, appears open-and-shut, the FAA has no case against the passenger, Troy Martin. If in fact Mr. Martin held a student pilot certificate (of which I have seen no evidence as yet) it would be immaterial -- he was a passenger, and nothing more.

Should the FAA take any action whatsoever against Mr. Martin, it would indicate the FAA holds passengers with any pilot training at all responsible for the actions of the PIC, and that would be a radical about-face regarding the authority of a PIC as enumerated in 14 CFR 91.3, and I don't see that happening.
 
Ron Levy said:
While the case against the pilot, "Jim" Sheaffer, appears open-and-shut, the FAA has no case against the passenger, Troy Martin. If in fact Mr. Martin held a student pilot certificate (of which I have seen no evidence as yet) it would be immaterial -- he was a passenger, and nothing more.

Should the FAA take any action whatsoever against Mr. Martin, it would indicate the FAA holds passengers with any pilot training at all responsible for the actions of the PIC, and that would be a radical about-face regarding the authority of a PIC as enumerated in 14 CFR 91.3, and I don't see that happening.
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No, I do not think Martin will in trouble with the FAA at all. However, what I was saying is that with everything those two and their families have been through, they will not WANT to ever get in a GA plane again.
 
Iceman said:
No, I do not think Martin will in trouble with the FAA at all. However, what I was saying is that with everything those two and their families have been through, they will not WANT to ever get in a GA plane again.
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I don't think the FAA CAN do anything with the passenger if he doesn't have a student pilot certificate. Without it, he doesn't exist as anything more than an educated passenger in the FAA's world.
 
Well if the passenger/student pilot does decide to pursue his licence after this, you can bet good money he'll never make the mistake the PIC did.
 
Interestingly today the News said that the pilot Scheafer froze up when intercepted by the Black Hawk and F-16. The pax Martin then took controls and landed the plane @ FDK.
 
Another gem from Neil Steinberg:

Are you more secure now?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. We're playing out of the old rule book, How To Fight Terrorism (Entropy Press, 2001). The near-panic in Washington, D.C., Wednesday as a Cessna strayed into its airspace is a classic example. We're set on a hair trigger about planes, working feverishly to prevent Sept. 11, which would be helpful if we could go back in time. Meanwhile, big containers of what we hope are crates of lawn furniture and not crude atomic weapons show up, unexamined, in our cities every single day.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/steinberg/cst-nws-stein15.html
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He gets it. I'm likin' this guy more and more.
 
Brian Austin said:
I don't think the FAA CAN do anything with the passenger if he doesn't have a student pilot certificate. Without it, he doesn't exist as anything more than an educated passenger in the FAA's world.
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Even with a student cert. ( if he does indeed have one), he has absolutely no responsibility for the flight. As a student, he is forbidden from carrying passangers (including a certificated pilot) or acting as PIC with anyone else on board. He is still nothing more than a passanger, who has no responsibility (legally anyway) for the flight.
 
More Reasonable Press Reports Appearing

Perhaps there's hope. Some of the media seem to be recovering from their hyperventilation, and we're starting to more reasonable, better-researched reports on the ADIZ incident. For example:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05135/504865.stm

Which includes the following paragraphs:
Despite their perilous hobby, pilots seem to be more scrupulously risk-averse than others. Schubert described the myriad procedures in place to prevent a pilot from straying off course: flight-planning computer software, aircraft transponders, built-in or hand-held global-positioning equipment, and emergency radio frequencies that pilots can use to request support and positioning data from local airports.

Pilots are deluged with safety seminars, visits from FAA officials and constant e-mail updates of new aviation rules and restrictions, said Schubert.

"Nobody among us understands'' how Sheaffer got so far into restricted airspace he should have known about, said Schubert, a native of Germany who has been living in the United States for three years.

"It is a question of how you approach flying. With flying, you have to have good risk management. It's your life and your family. You have to be more careful than in a car. Up there, there is no brake. For me, I don't want any risk. I do the work. I make my flight plans.''

​
 
Ron Levy said:
According to Phil Boyer, the emergency revocation notice was served on Jim Sheaffer yesterday evening. I understand that Sheaffer is an AOPA Legal Services Plan member, and entitled to representation under that plan, but whether he will fight the revocation is not known. Under the Hoover Bill, Sheaffer has 48 hours to appeal the action to the full NTSB, but a knowledgeable aviation lawyer told me that there is absolutely no chance such an appeal would succeed.

Personally, I think the FAA did the right thing, and I hope that if it is appealed, the NTSB sustains the FAA action.
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I assumed that the guy had no assistance, like AOPA in his flying at all. How in heaven does an AOPA legal services subscriber and member NOT know about the ADIZ? I just was guessing the last time this guy took any real training or guidance, it was from one of the Wright Brothers. Even if you just GLANCE at AOPA Pilot every month, you almost have to learn something about the ADIZ.

Jim G

As an aside, the plane could not have been too badly dismantled. It is back in it's place at Smoketown. I was told it came in late Friday. No one seems to know who flew it in and most of us are preferring to know nothing at this time.
 
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Jim, your response is entirely predicated on the assumption the pilot was not in any way incapacited. It's too early to tell...the investigation in this case seems to be progressing very slowly, probably because it's a very high profile case, the potentially severe implications to a warning system which doesn't work, and there is some confusion about what actually happened in that cockpit.


Something's fishy, so many things don't pass muster. Could it be he 'froze' long before the flares were dropped in front of him but it was only then that the pax noticed it? What about it, Dr. Chien, could the pilot have experienced an incapacitating anuresism or something like that 5, 10, 15, 30 minutes before sysmptoms were noticed by the ride along pax otherwise known as 'student pilot'?

(I witnessed my father having a stroke one time. He got very disoriented and confused. I chalked it up to his age, the high temps that day, and the physical labor of building an outside deck. It was two days later when he collapsed on the golf course that we put 2 & 2 together. The Dr confirmed he had suffered a stroke several days prior.)

A student pilot in close company of a long time pilot is apt to keep his mouth shut about advising or otherwise correcting the more experienced pilot. That would result in a delay right there. Also, a student pilot is just now learning to fly, not make a medical diagnosis. The pax could have been blissfully unaware for many long minutes before he noticed anything was askew.

Anyway, quite often things aren't as they seem.
 
grattonja said:
How in heaven does an AOPA legal services subscriber and member NOT know about the ADIZ? I just was guessing the last time this guy took any real training or guidance, it was from one of the Wright Brothers.
Jim G
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Unfortunately, underlying this soon may be a medical issue. Watch out guys!
I hope Mr. Schaeffer has the grace to simply take a roll on this one, unlike the color impaired pilot who landed short and blamed his inability to interpret the VASI. That's turning into a medical quagmire. Now we got "pilot's cognitive abiliti to recognize interception...." and standards for that.

There's the Thurman Munson rule.
There's the reaction to John Denver (administrative).
There's....well it goes on and on.
 
bbchien said:
Unfortunately, underlying this soon may be a medical issue. Watch out guys!
I hope Mr. Schaeffer has the grace to simply take a roll on this one, unlike the color impaired pilot who landed short and blamed his inability to interpret the VASI. That's turning into a medical quagmire. Now we got "pilot's cognitive abiliti to recognize interception...." and standards for that.

There's the Thurman Munson rule.
There's the reaction to John Denver (administrative).
There's....well it goes on and on.
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God, I never thought about some sort of senility type of issue. That would go a long way towards explaining things. I kind of doubt that it is a physical type of medical issue, as the poor guy is hiding out from the press with his wife right now. An aneurysm or something like that would probably have meant a trip directly from the tarmac to the hospital. But, early onset Alzheimer or some other issue that, in older days, would be called senility, never crossed my mind. Then, all the questions about a dubious CFI would fall back as questions about the AME. Who is probably also my AME, as one doc does most of the evals at S37. Crap. I hope that's not it.

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
God, I never thought about some sort of senility type of issue. That would go a long way towards explaining things. I kind of doubt that it is a physical type of medical issue, as the poor guy is hiding out from the press with his wife right now. An aneurysm or something like that would probably have meant a trip directly from the tarmac to the hospital. But, early onset Alzheimer or some other issue that, in older days, would be called senility, never crossed my mind. Then, all the questions about a dubious CFI would fall back as questions about the AME. Who is probably also my AME, as one doc does most of the evals at S37. Crap. I hope that's not it.

Jim G
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Doesn't have to be senility, either. When's the last time the club had the 150 tested for carbon monoxide leaks?
 
Joe makes a salient point. See guys, it most likely is more than what we know so far.

I think the real problem is how one of the most smallest (slowest) birds in the entire GA arsenal, I mean, fleet could make it past all the big whoop which is the hi tech area protection. Heads are gonna' roll... I think a lot of gubmint officials spent this wknd figuring out a plan to cover their arses.
 
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