Fox News Reports Plane Violated DC No Fly Zone

I think it is a matter of staying current as far as training as a pilot.

I see it all the time.
Kicks the tires lights the fires makes no radio takes off into the wild blue yonder has no pre flight breifing and no current charts or A/FD. Turns on the GPS folows the line on the screen and makes a straight in with no calls. Seen guys take off ,enroute, land never make a radio call. Same type pilot usually avoids Controllers.

I don't know what to think other than we are all responsible for staying current in our skills and knowledge including rules and airspace.

If he really did get that far off course I cant see how. He should not be flying.
Its like many here have said "Best navigation tools are a chart and eyes out the window." Dead reckoning and Pilotage The oldest and best form of Navigation. To many people who lose this Skill.
What about check points on a Chart and a Nav Log, MY GOOD NESS????

Bet the Student is really discouraged. Talk about the wrong place at the wrong time!
 
Last edited:
How about flight following? Surely that would have kept them out of trouble.

Even if they'd lost radios AND the transponder, ATC would've had a good idea of who they were and what they said their plane was (and a tail number, to confirm that).

Yet another reason to use FF on long trips whenever you can.
 
MSmith said:
How about flight following? Surely that would have kept them out of trouble.

Even if they'd lost radios AND the transponder, ATC would've had a good idea of who they were and what they said their plane was (and a tail number, to confirm that).

Yet another reason to use FF on long trips whenever you can.
Click to expand...


Who knows, maybe they had flight following. Maybe there is more to this story then clueless pilots?
 
MSmith said:
Was our president ever a General Aviation pilot? I got the sense that he was military-only.
Click to expand...

That is correct. I believe he had 300 or so hours all in the guard.
 
Saved by the news cycle

Great news

Macaulay Culkin says Jackson didn't molest him, John Bolton visited swinger clubs in the 80's and, oh my god, Fedorov was booted off Idol

Were you saying something about a lost plane?

Now lets all be a lot more careful and not get in the news anymore
 
(from the Lancaster New Era) However, the Cessna is equipped with a VOR receiver, a type of navigational radio that receives a signal from a ground-based radio transmitter, said Henderson.

The VOR gives the pilot the ability to determine whether or not he is on course. But the device does not tell the pilot where he is on that course.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree on this, not quite accurate. It may take a wee bit of effort, but cross referencing two VOR's (with one receiver) is really quite easy. And that does tell a pilot where he is on that course. Requested to do it on my check ride, having never actually done it before. Piece of cake, and I was shall we say... nervous?

And how would one NOT see visible landmarks like the Capitol? The Washington Monument?? C'mon.......:no:
 
T Bone said:
I respectfully disagree on this, not quite accurate. It may take a wee bit of effort, but cross referencing two VOR's (with one receiver) is really quite easy. And that does tell a pilot where he is on that course. Requested to do it on my check ride, having never actually done it before. Piece of cake, and I was shall we say... nervous?

And how would one NOT see visible landmarks like the Capitol? The Washington Monument?? C'mon.......:no:
Click to expand...


Trust me when I tell you that 5826G does not have two nav/coms. I am pretty sure that is a "one radio and a transponder" plane.

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
Trust me when I tell you that 5826G does not have two nav/coms. I am pretty sure that is a "one radio and a transponder" plane.

Jim G
Click to expand...
Ah, neither did I! Tune one, lay pen (or other straight object) on aproximate course line. Tune second, intersect. Bingo! We're in the prohibited zone! *requires use of charts less aged than Methuselah.....
 
T Bone said:
Ah, neither did I! Tune one, lay pen (or other straight object) on aproximate course line. Tune second, intersect. Bingo! We're in the prohibited zone! *requires use of charts less aged than Methuselah.....
Click to expand...


You got me there. I did that as part of my IR training. And it can be done. Particularly easy if you have a digital nav/com like the KX155 when you can set up a digital CDI on the screen of the radio. So you don't have to keep retuning the CDI as you go back and forth.

It is easy in this age of GPS to forget just how good the VOR system really is.

Mea Culpa.

Jim G
 
From the Fuel Pump Help Story:
"I am embarrassed and dismayed. It's awful easy for this to happen to anyone," Henderson said. "It's just a shame that it happened to this guy, because he is one swell guy."

How is this awful easy to happen to anyone?
 
NickDBrennan said:
From the Fuel Pump Help Story:
"I am embarrassed and dismayed. It's awful easy for this to happen to anyone," Henderson said. "It's just a shame that it happened to this guy, because he is one swell guy."

How is this awful easy to happen to anyone?
Click to expand...

On our trip to Charleston, WV, we had to go between P40 and the ADIZ. I planned the route assuming P40 would be expanded, which meant a little kink instead of going direct. At the closest point, I was about 5 nm from the ADIZ border. A bit of distraction from the kid, or trying to figure out the Garmin 430 I was using for the first time (aside from simulator practice), and I can see nicking the edge. It's only about two minutes from my planned route to the edge of the ADIZ at the speeds I had that day. I solved this by not letting myself be distracted anywhere near the ADIZ, and not fiddling with the GPS. Still, I can see how one could nick the edge. It would take a bit more, in my mind, to be so lost or distracted that I found myself circling the VP's house in downtown DC.
 
2 words: flight following.

I almost always use it. Another set of eyes watching never hurts....
 
Joe Williams said:
I planned the route [so]... at the closest point, I was about 5 nm from the ADIZ border.
Click to expand...

That's what I recommend -- 5 nm buffer around the ADIZ for your flight planning. Not many folks will get distracted for 2 minutes or more.
 
I do know that the one we're seeing now isn't for security...it's for public relations.[/QUOTE]

Got that right on...
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Interview with the pilot of the F-16 that intrecepted. Any questions about whether an aircraft may be downed after readin this??

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/12/cnna.lehmann/index.html

Dave
(I'm from the gov'ment and I'm hear to help you)
Click to expand...
I admire Lt Col Lehmann's self control. Most fighter pilots would have answered that "would you shoot?" question something like, "Hell, yes, absolutely, shoot the @#$%^& down, twice, with the biggest warhead I've got!"
 
Ron Levy said:
I admire Lt Col Lehmann's self control. Most fighter pilots would have answered that "would you shoot?" question something like, "Hell, yes, absolutely, shoot the @#$%^& down, twice, with the biggest warhead I've got!"
Click to expand...

Ha!! Sounds all too familiar.

Ron: you seem to have credited them with better grammer than I'm used to hearing !!:p

Dave
 
Steve said:
Does anyone remember some 20 years ago "shoot down" authority was the hot topic regarding planes flying north out of Mexico and the Gulf of Mexico?
Click to expand...

Yes. We had a raging fight about how wrong it was to kill drug dealers. Guess butchering grandfathers giving their granddaughters a ride is a different story.
 
Ok ok - this is a hot topic and very important to all of us, so lets try not to let the rhetoric get out of hand.

Not singling anyone out here - I just read the thread for the first time here and it got a little...shall we say... testy?... a few pages back too.

Lets do please try and be civil about this to each other. It seems to me the only criticism that is at all justified here is towards the bozo pilots who've just shined the spotlight of media attention on us, again.
 
I spent all day discussing this with people who know more about flying from watching TV than I do being a licensed pilot. I didn't win any arguments either; most of them looked at me like I didn't know what I was talking about. It was a mistake that could have been tragic.

I asked those who gleefully wait for an aircraft shootdown where they think all the pieces and jet fuel would go. More blank stares. Back to the TV I guess.
 
This story is not going to hurt us all the much. Even the Daily Show is making fun of the whole fuss, always a good sign. Most people recognize the plane was no threat and it was an honest, all be it stupid, mistake.

I've had people joking with me about it all day. I'm certain all of you have friends that know your a pilot and have kidded you about it. Some guys getting lost aint going to end general aviation. Fuel prices might.
 
Last edited:
corjulo said:
...an honest, all be it stupid, mistake.
Click to expand...
Yah but. We can't tolerate too much of this. Never mind, though, FAA will take care of it. Sigh.
 
bbchien said:
Yah but. We can't tolerate too much of this. Never mind, though, FAA will take care of it. Sigh.
Click to expand...

Agree. They're already rethinking the idea of reopening DCA. At best, it will be delayed by months
 
maybe we should all write a letter to those two thanking them for messing it up for everyone here.
 
woodstock said:
those two thanking them for messing it up for everyone here.
Click to expand...

Remember, the plane had a pilot and a passenger. Even though the passenger just happened to be a student pilot, I don't see as how anyone could hold the passenger responsible for anything other than having poor pilot selection processes. How many folks here could accurately navigate by pilotage the entire time they wore the "student pilot" moniker?
 
This business about it being "not that hard to get lost"--I don't buy it. It's not that easy to get lost, IMHO, if you're paying attention. I've never gotten lost in my life. Yes, there have been a few times I've been off course, mostly in a car when I was given bad driving directions. But even in a new city, it takes no time at all to figure out something's wrong. I've never gotten lost in the air, where the amount of information to help keep you spatially oriented is overwhelming, even in the most remote areas.

Then again, I could read maps before I could read (thanks, dad!), so maybe the fact that I can't even imagine getting lost is highly atypical.

I'm sorry. I agree that the ADIZ/FRZ/paranoia thing is out of hand, but this PIC doesn't deserve the privilege that a pilot certificate confers on him.

Judy
 
Don't know about "the whole time" Ed, but I picked it up by the time I started doing dual XCs, about 20 hours or so. On my checkride I was able to point to the airport of departure every time the DE asked me. Okay, she did say that was a little unusual... and I had more hours than most by then. But I never came anywhere close to being lost on my student solo XCs either.

No, I'm not blaming the passenger; burden of responsibility falls squarely on PIC.

I'm with Judy... can't imagine a certificated pilot taking off *anywhere* without being confidently able to navigate clear of airspace, much less near the DC ADIZ. That PIC needs *at least* a remedial course in navigation... not sure that would help though. He had at least a chart and one VOR, from what has been said. That should have been enough... something is missing there.

Liz
 
woodstock said:
maybe we should all write a letter to those two thanking them for messing it up for everyone here.
Click to expand...

Certainly of the two, the PIC takes the hit for negligence, as is usually the case but, besides the PIC, how can any USA passenger, especially a student pilot be so oblivious of procedures and surroundings ?

But the PIC's personal suffering for his negligence will not come close to the damages he's caused all of aviation for a long time to come.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Certainly of the two, the PIC takes the hit for negligence, as is usually the case but, besides the PIC, how can any USA passenger, especially a student pilot be so oblivious of procedures and surroundings ?

But the PIC's personal suffering for his negligence will not come close to the damages he's caused all of aviation for a long time to come.
Click to expand...


I don't know about that. I was out at Smoketown today. Believe me, there are some uphappy folks out there. That pilot will be reminded of it for some time to come, should he choose to appear anytime soon, which is doubtful.

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
I don't know about that. I was out at Smoketown today. Believe me, there are some uphappy folks out there. That pilot will be reminded of it for some time to come, should he choose to appear anytime soon, which is doubtful.

Jim G
Click to expand...

There are unhappy folks at every airport in the USA right now because of this incident. As for him and others like him, (PIC or otherwise) stupidity should be painful. And, if it's painful enough, it will effect future behavoir in a positive way in many cases.

But if my real wish were to be granted, it would be that he and all of us would always fly properly in accomplishing any and all of our individual flight missions.
 
BruceAir said:
AOPA has posted an interesting video clip on its Web site at:

http://media.aopa.org/050511boyer.asx

It shows Phil Boyer "behind the scenes" as he's interviewed nonstop by media, including CNN (which called AOPA the "Airline Owners...")
Click to expand...

Poor Phil.

Trying to defend stupidity by talking to stu......
 
azure said:
Don't know about "the whole time" Ed, but I picked it up by the time I started doing dual XCs, about 20 hours or so.
Click to expand...

So, relative to your 20 hour learning curve, where is the "student pilot" in this particular case? We don't know, do we? But that ignorance hasn't stopping some folks from professing that the "student pilot" should have known how to navigate perfectly.

Doesn't sound right, does it?
 
Mr. Martin didn't show up in the FAA database when I looked, so he hasn't had his medical all that long. I'd assume that he's pre-solo (and hopefully he'll keep going someday).
 
Ed Guthrie said:
So, relative to your 20 hour learning curve, where is the "student pilot" in this particular case? We don't know, do we? But that ignorance hasn't stopping some folks from professing that the "student pilot" should have known how to navigate perfectly.
Click to expand...
I didn't see anyone professing that that particular student pilot should have "known how to navigate perfectly". I agree that we don't know where he was on the SP learning curve, and that's part of why I was unwilling to cast any blame in his direction in this case. I was just making a general comment that I think many student pilots are a lot more competent than the moniker "student" would suggest.

Still, I would find it astounding if he had no idea that the ADIZ exists and that one doesn't fly anywhere close to DC without a clearance from ATC. Even more astounding if he had been looking out the window and not had the foggiest idea that they might be somewhere they weren't supposed to be.

Of course, for all we know neither of them even glanced out the window until the umpteenth flare got their attention...

Liz
 
azure said:
I didn't see anyone professing that that particular student pilot should have "known how to navigate perfectly".
Click to expand...

Not sure if you are playing word games by focusing on "perfectly", but if not then I suggest scanning back a few posts and you'll find folk(s) laying navigation blame on the passenger.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Not sure if you are playing word games by focusing on "perfectly", but if not then I suggest scanning back a few posts and you'll find folk(s) laying navigation blame on the passenger.
Click to expand...

Please don't blaspheme the word navigation here. I thought this was supposed to be a civil & polite board here. <G>

We're not talking navigation, we're saying,
"Hey, you two, in the little plane, do you know what country you're in ???"
"Do you know what and where the capitol of the USA is ???"
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Please don't blaspheme the word navigation here. I thought this was supposed to be a civil & polite board here. <G>

We're not talking navigation, we're saying,
"Hey, you two, in the little plane, do you know what country you're in ???"
"Do you know what and where the capitol of the USA is ???"
Click to expand...

Coming from the direction those two approached the student saw rolling hills, trees, and an occasional town or freeway until the ADIZ/FRZ was well punctured. I don't know about you, but my ability to recognize the nation's capitol based on limited visual clues doesn't extend to the tree/hill level. YMMV, but I don't expect a student of unknown experience to do any better.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top