Four pilots indicted

Bill Weber said:
Vel123 -- sounds like you have some integrity. That's what they used to teach back in the good old days.
Click to expand...

I agree! I’ve flown with more than a few guys that have bragged about their 80%. As a non military dude I’ve always been reluctant to form a strong opinion on it, but it never did sit right with me.
 
Velocity173 said:
Shouldn't be worried at all if the PTSD diagnosis is false. That’s what we’re getting at here. Odds are, these people claimed something they didn’t have to get the $$$. Then, they withheld it from the FAA so it wouldn’t affect the precious extra cash they were getting each month.

Now, how can it be done so easily. Simple, after 2010 the VA stopped investigating PTSD claims. The system was overloaded and they just didn’t have time to look into finding proof of PTSD. As far as the combat related PTSD, all one has to do today is have served in a combat zone and give a stressor statement. There are websites out there that actually coach the individual in writing the stressor statement which almost guarantees the physiological rating for PTSD.

For me, with over 1,100 combat hrs in both Iraq and Afghanistan and been under the threat of death everyday, I’d have no problem getting rated for PTSD disability. Throw in a little back pain, joint pain and tinnitus and I’d easily top 80 %. That’ll pay for the house and the car! As some of my friends have said “the money is there for the taking so why not get your share?”
Click to expand...

Exactly. Classic tragedy of the commons. What's worse, publicly admonishing the practice is considered a third rail in military circles. Ask me how I know. My position on the matter (like many social positions of mine within the military demographic) is unequivocally a pariah position. In Texas it's even worse, since the state coddles military retirees, so everybody shoots for a high DV rating in order to get the property taxes on their primary residence (TX is high prop tax since it doesn't have income tax) wiped out, which can be windfalls per month on homes above 300K.

So I just tend to my personal decisions to the degree they allow me to be at peace with the nature of my service, and keep counting the days to my active duty 20.

I suppose I wouldn't be so taken by what transpires on this side of the fence if it wasn't for the incessant and insufferable bellyaching from these same 'heroes' regarding civil entitlement and safety net programs, and all the canards that get uttered on said account. The level of hypocrisy is astounding, coming from six figure income earning dual-hatted mil/airline pilots no less. Nothing new under the sun I suppose.

The system is broken. No point in moralizing about individuals when dealing with something systemic like a tragedy of the commons. The only way to right the ship is to close the spigot and tell everybody "that's why y'all can't have nice things". A very narrow scope disability payment system would be more adequate in insulating from the graft of human greed, which military members are most definitively not any more immune from than the civilian population at large. Not an excuse, but to be fair to the enlisted, the pay scales are generally not worth staying to 20 for an enlisted pension, especially if the vocational experience gained through those years does not lead to a high paying civil occupation to play catch up in your 40s (ATC for instance). So I somewhat understand the inclination to malign in order to supplement with a secondary de facto medical pension. But commissioned officers with special pay add-ons like pilots? Yeah that's just unfettered cash grab.
 
kayoh190 said:
Don’t see what being a member of the LGBTQ community has to do with flying an airliner, but we’ll probably get this thread locked if we go any further with this. ;)
Click to expand...
It’s just what I said. As pilots, we don’t get to determine our own truth. The aircraft acts in accordance with reality, not our feelings. The suicide rates of trans alone should be a disqualifier.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
He is charged in that indictment with lying on a government form, nothing else.

While collecting any money taken by the government by force from citizens could be considered receiving stolen property in some sense....
Click to expand...
Would that also apply if you ran a business and the government bought something from you?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Exactly. Classic tragedy of the commons. What's worse, publicly admonishing the practice is considered a third rail in military circles. Ask me how I know. My position on the matter (like many social positions of mine within the military demographic) is unequivocally a pariah position. In Texas it's even worse, since the state coddles military retirees, so everybody shoots for a high DV rating in order to get the property taxes on their primary residence (TX is high prop tax since it doesn't have income tax) wiped out, which can be windfalls per month on homes above 300K.

So I just tend to my personal decisions to the degree they allow me to be at peace with the nature of my service, and keep counting the days to my active duty 20.

I suppose I wouldn't be so taken by what transpires on this side of the fence if it wasn't for the incessant and insufferable bellyaching from these same 'heroes' regarding civil entitlement and safety net programs, and all the canards that get uttered on said account. The level of hypocrisy is astounding, coming from six figure income earning dual-hatted mil/airline pilots no less. Nothing new under the sun I suppose.

The system is broken. No point in moralizing about individuals when dealing with something systemic like a tragedy of the commons. The only way to right the ship is to close the spigot and tell everybody "that's why y'all can't have nice things". A very narrow scope disability payment system would be more adequate in insulating from the graft of human greed, which military members are most definitively not any more immune from than the civilian population at large. Not an excuse, but to be fair to the enlisted, the pay scales are generally not worth staying to 20 for an enlisted pension, especially if the vocational experience gained through those years does not lead to a high paying civil occupation to play catch up in your 40s (ATC for instance). So I somewhat understand the inclination to malign in order to supplement with a secondary de facto medical pension. But commissioned officers with special pay add-ons like pilots? Yeah that's just unfettered cash grab.
Click to expand...

By the way, when is retirement for you anyway? You said you knew “Mover”? That T-38 gig would seem like a good contractor or Reserve spot to get into.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Aerodynamics != LGBTQ, or our feelings about it.
Click to expand...
Both are subject to reality, regardless of our feelings about them.

I’ll bet no one is willing to discuss or debate this in PMs.
 
Last edited:
PeterNSteinmetz said:
He is charged in that indictment with lying on a government form, nothing else.

While collecting any money taken by the government by force from citizens could be considered receiving stolen property in some sense, a lot of people do it. But if he was receiving less than he and his family paid in, it could be considered recovering what is rightfully yours.
Click to expand...
I'm not making some rightwing tax argument. If he is disabled, he's disabled and entitled to whatever that entails. If he's lying about being disabled (which he clearly is if he's collecting disability and successfully engaged in a professional aviation career) then he's stealing.
 
flyingron said:
He's not charged with that, nor is it apparent that he is doing that just from the indictment.
Click to expand...
He's either disabled and shouldn't be flying, or (more likely given that he's apparently performing adequately as a professional aviator) he's lying about being disabled and thus stealing bennies. He can't be both.
 
mryan75 said:
He's either disabled and shouldn't be flying, or (more likely given that he's apparently performing adequately as a professional aviator) he's lying about being disabled and thus stealing bennies. He can't be both.
Click to expand...

That's the thing, in today's legal framework one can. It's not binary in the case of the VA. In today's legal framework, you can attain a 90pct disability rating and still hold an FAA first class and make stupid dollars as a major airline pilot. I find that reality morally reprehensible and indicative of a broken system in need of total overhaul. But that's my position, not the law as currently stated. I hear ya, and I think the system is broken, but as currently implemented, your purported binary is a false dichotomy. What's legal ain't always right, what's illegal ain't always wrong. That's my opinion anyways.
 
hindsight2020 said:
That's the thing, in today's legal framework one can. It's not binary in the case of the VA. In today's legal framework, you can attain a 90pct disability rating and still hold an FAA first class and make stupid dollars as a major airline pilot. I find that reality morally reprehensible and indicative of a broken system in need of total overhaul. But that's my position, not the law as currently stated. I hear ya, and I think the system is broken, but as currently implemented, your purported binary is a false dichotomy. What's legal ain't always right, what's illegal ain't always wrong. That's my opinion anyways.
Click to expand...
No he can't. He lied on his medical, otherwise he would've been denied (which he presumably knows and is presumably why he lied).
 
Bill Weber said:
My sister is an M.D. (Psychiatrist) for the U.S. Navy. She too told me that even if you just fly over a war zone you qualify. From what I understand the rating is assessed based on quite a few factors. Problem is, even if you are doing if for the monthly paycheck (and to qualify) you've probably got some history with medication (be it SSRIs or sleep aids) and these drugs can obviously affect performance and mental state, especially if you take them without any regimented routine.

Vel123 -- sounds like you have some integrity. That's what they used to teach back in the good old days.
Click to expand...

Well I don’t wanna come off like no one in the military has integrity anymore. There are plenty that look the other way when it comes to the VA hand outs. But, there are those that see how easy it is and it makes it difficult not to take that coveted 50+ % retirement disability rating. I mean, you’re getting ready to retire into a uncertain job market, got a wife who likes to take expensive trips to Destin and kids that are going to need money for college. An extra grand or two a month can help tremendously. It’s tempting.

I also don’t want to come off like all PTSD claims are false either. There are those who have seen some crazy **** and they can’t get over it. People react differently from traumatic events. I started the thread about my friend who was awarded the DSC last week. He said he doesn’t have PTSD from it or his other combat experiences. He’s the type who knew what he was getting into when he raised his right hand and he thrived during stressful events. Others probably had no idea they’d be in extreme danger or they didn’t realize they’d be traumatized from graphic events. Personally, for the later, I would rather see free meds and free psychiatric treatments with a doctor vs just awarding money to PTSD claims. Money isn’t going to remove that event out of their psyche.
 
Last edited:
mryan75 said:
No he can't. He lied on his medical, otherwise he would've been denied (which he presumably knows and is presumably why he lied).
Click to expand...

My apologies, I meant my comments as a generality, not addressing the case at hand. Not conjecture, I personally know two individuals with 90pct ratings flying for major airlines, AND the military concurrently. That was the scope of my comment.
 
hindsight2020 said:
My apologies, I meant my comments as a generality, not addressing the case at hand. Not conjecture, I personally know two individuals with 90pct ratings flying for major airlines, AND the military concurrently. That was the scope of my comment.
Click to expand...
AH, okay. Are you allowed to declare your disability and fly legally? Honest question.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well I don’t wanna come off like no one in the military has integrity anymore. There are plenty that look the other way when it comes to the VA hand outs. But, there are those that see how easy it is and it makes it difficult not to take that coveted 50+ % retirement disability rating. I mean, you’re getting ready to retire into a uncertain job market, got a wife who likes to take expensive trips to Destin and kids that are going to need money for college. An extra grand or two a month can help tremendously. It’s tempting.

I also don’t want to come off like all PTSD claims are false either. There are those who have seen some crazy **** and they can’t get over it. People react differently from traumatic events. I started the thread about my friend who was awarded the DSC last week. He said he doesn’t have PTSD from it or his other combat experiences. He’s the type who knew what he was getting into when he raised his right hand and he thrived during stressful events. Others probably had no idea they’d be in extreme danger or they didn’t realize they’d be traumatized from graphic events. Personally, for the later, I would rather see free meds and free psychiatric treatments with a doctor vs just awarding money to PTSD claims. Money is going to remove that event out of their psyche.
Click to expand...

Yup, that's what I advocate as well. Expanded medical services in lieu of money. You'd see the VA claims dry out overnight it'd blow the sandals off your feet like a GBU-31.
 
You know, it's just not the military. SS claims climbed 5.4 million from 2008-2012. Yes, the system is ripe for abuses but it takes integrity in not exploiting a broken process

-Geaux
 
mryan75 said:
He's either disabled and shouldn't be flying, or (more likely given that he's apparently performing adequately as a professional aviator) he's lying about being disabled and thus stealing bennies. He can't be both.
Click to expand...
Correct, but you didn't say that. The government is prosecuting him on the belief that he lied about being disabled and having a mental diagnosis. They're not prosecuting for fraudulently obtaining the benefits. There's not enough information to tell if Chrisman's benefits were legitimately obtained or not. What is known is that he made a major and almost certain intentional misstatement on his medical applications and now is facing ten years in prison for that. And the FAA is almost sure to yank *ALL* his certificates in an adminstrative action if they haven't done so already regardless of how the criminal trial works out.
 
flyingron said:
Correct, but you didn't say that. The government is prosecuting him on the belief that he lied about being disabled and having a mental diagnosis. They're not prosecuting for fraudulently obtaining the benefits. There's not enough information to tell if Chrisman's benefits were legitimately obtained or not. What is known is that he made a major and almost certain intentional misstatement on his medical applications and now is facing ten years in prison for that. And the FAA is almost sure to yank *ALL* his certificates in an adminstrative action if they haven't done so already regardless of how the criminal trial works out.
Click to expand...
I'm mixing arguments. I know what he's charged with. And I hope he's convicted because I don't like people stealing from the taxpaying people of his country. I realize one does not have to do with the other in his particular legal case. That's just my opinion and feelings on the matter.
 
mryan75 said:
AH, okay. Are you allowed to declare your disability and fly legally? Honest question.
Click to expand...

I’m not quite sure what you mean by declare your disability and fly legally, but here’s part of my story.

I was diagnosed with melanoma while on active duty. That required a waiver for me to keep my AF flight physical and flight status.

When I retired, The VA gave me a disability rating for the residual scar from the skin graft. I declared it, submitted the original pathology and was issued an FAA medical.
 
mryan75 said:
I'm mixing arguments. I know what he's charged with. And I hope he's convicted because I don't like people stealing from the taxpaying people of his country. I realize one does not have to do with the other in his particular legal case. That's just my opinion and feelings on the matter.
Click to expand...
But you are assuming facts not in evidence that he improperly obtained the benefits.
 
flyingron said:
Of course, if the criminal conviction ensues, they may well hold him not to be of good moral character and decline to allow him to try to get an ATP even if they do issue the medical.
Click to expand...

Yes, but that’s irrelevant to the question of whether or not the FAA will issue a medical to someone diagnosed with PTSD, which is what I specifically was addressing in my post.
 
mryan75 said:
Why did he lie about the PTSD bennies? He was having his proverbial cake.
Click to expand...
A cynical sort would say it was because he knew he'd be denied the medical (or at least have difficulty obtaining one) had he not lied.
That still doesn't make the disability determination invalid or the receipt of benefits improper. Frankly, if he was doing that, I'd like to see him prosecuted for that (and he still might happen if it were true, nothing in this case precludes him from being tried for that).
 
TCABM said:
Yes, but that’s irrelevant to the question of whether or not the FAA will issue a medical to someone diagnosed with PTSD, which is what I specifically was addressing in my post.
Click to expand...
I was just adding to that, that even if he were able to get a medical under the SI and work his way back up, the FAA may still deny letting him be an ATP.
 
mryan75 said:
AH, okay. Are you allowed to declare your disability and fly legally? Honest question.
Click to expand...

Sure you can. There are those who claim it and fly with no waiver or some fly with a special issuance. Friend of mine claimed his and was informed that he wasn’t eligible for a class I but got a class II without a SI.
 
flyingron said:
A cynical sort would say it was because he knew he'd be denied the medical (or at least have difficulty obtaining one) had he not lied.
That still doesn't make the disability determination invalid or the receipt of benefits improper.
Click to expand...
Heres the thing: I would contend that if he was successfully performing his duties as a 121 airman, his PTSD diagnosis was probably at least some level of BS. He didn't get popped because he bent metal. There are really only a few possibilities here, and my money is on him being full of dookie and knowingly ripping off the taxpayer while collecting his nice, fat airline salary. Really no matter what the whole truth is, he's getting exactly what he deserves.
 
mryan75 said:
AH, okay. Are you allowed to declare your disability and fly legally? Honest question.
Click to expand...
Maybe. It depends on the disability.

You may need as Special Issuance, or it may be something that is completely disqualifying.

Sleep Apnea is a perfect example. Typically gets 50% disability rating but as long as you go through the special issuance process, you can still hold a first class medical.

Other things like PTSD are much more problematic.
 
There appears to be much misunderstanding about military disability ratings and benefits. There's not been enough information about what Chrisman's disability rating was or the scope of his benefits to determine if there was impropriety here. There are people with substantial disabilities (things like amputations) that are still able to get non-marginal employment, perhaps with some retraining.
 
flyingron said:
There appears to be much misunderstanding about military disability ratings and benefits. There's not been enough information about what Chrisman's disability rating was or the scope of his benefits to determine if there was impropriety here. There are people with substantial disabilities (things like amputations) that are still able to get non-marginal employment, perhaps with some retraining.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that by going to trial he is 'rolling the dice'. I can't imagine he will end doing time. Get a good lawyer and maybe get off. Depends on Rx use too, I'm sure. It is rare that PTSD goes unmedicated for a diagnosis that would appear on records.
 
flyingron said:
There appears to be much misunderstanding about military disability ratings and benefits. There's not been enough information about what Chrisman's disability rating was or the scope of his benefits to determine if there was impropriety here. There are people with substantial disabilities (things like amputations) that are still able to get non-marginal employment, perhaps with some retraining.
Click to expand...

QFT every statement there, Ron.
 
Cooter said:
Both are subject to reality, regardless of our feelings about them.

I’ll bet no one is willing to discuss or debate this in PMs.
Click to expand...
If discussed in a religious sense, LGBTQ is subject to that reality; some religions didn't care. If religion is left out of the discussion, LGBTQ is just human mores and have nothing to do with the physical world. I don't care enough to go into PM. The Almighty hasn't made me his policeman on earth, and I really don't care what someone is so long as they don't force me to that lifestyle.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Maybe. It depends on the disability.

You may need as Special Issuance, or it may be something that is completely disqualifying.

Sleep Apnea is a perfect example. Typically gets 50% disability rating but as long as you go through the special issuance process, you can still hold a first class medical.

Other things like PTSD are much more problematic.
Click to expand...

Whoa! Don’t sneak in here after midnight without saying where you’ve been. You been flying arms and drugs out of Nicaragua or something?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
If discussed in a religious sense, LGBTQ is subject to that reality; some religions didn't care. If religion is left out of the discussion, LGBTQ is just human mores and have nothing to do with the physical world. I don't care enough to go into PM. The Almighty hasn't made me his policeman on earth, and I really don't care what someone is so long as they don't force me to that lifestyle.
Click to expand...

You cared enough to comment and share your views. :confused2:
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top