Four pilots indicted

tawood said:
The question is, did they lie on the medical, or lie to get disability?
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Either way, they lose. Actually, if they lied to get disability, they lose once. Even if they weren't disabled, you're required to report that history on your medical. 18y asks about medical disability benefits. You lose again.
 
Ron, I think the Peachtree, GA, pilot is in the bay area since the indictments are all in the Northern California Federal District Court (Fortuna is in the NCDC territory: Humboldt County). Defendants Asleson and Beyer are assigned to Judge Charles R. Breyer (who is the brother of SCOTUS Justice Stephen Breyer), Defendant Grant is assigned to Judge Edward Chen, and Defendant Chrisman is assigned to Judge Vince Chhabria. All three judges are in the Northern California District Court.
 
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flyingron said:
Either way, they lose. Actually, if they lied to get disability, they lose once. Even if they weren't disabled, you're required to report that history on your medical. 18y asks about medical disability benefits. You lose again.
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Forgot about that one.
 
It’s the VA using the FAA to help them trim their budget.
 
So they lose their medical (forever, I presume) but I see no mention of losing their disability benefit.
 
I think the FAA has no clue how big the problem really is. Sitting thru a VA disability class is like attending a real estate get rich quick sales program. Basically it’s how to milk the DOD on your way out the door. Just don’t tell the FAA about it though because you risk your career over the tax free grand or so extra you get a month.
 
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The FAA has done this before. Iirc it was called 'operation clean hands'. A regular member here got caught up in this and fought his suspension all the way to the US supreme court (where he prevailed on a technicality). It looks like the the disability folks have tightened up their paperwork since and are now allowed to share information with the FAA.
 
I knew there was a reason I blew off that "0%" disability rating. When I went for my retirement physical, they told me I should file for disability, that way when I developed hearing loss or knee pain in my old age, I could claim a service connected disability.
 
weilke said:
The FAA has done this before. Iirc it was called 'operation clean hands'. A regular member here got caught up in this and fought his suspension all the way to the US supreme court (where he prevailed on a technicality). It looks like the the disability folks have tightened up their paperwork since and are now allowed to share information with the FAA.
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Operation Safe Pilot. :) Actually, I lost on a technicality in a 3 to 5 decision. The Court's opinion was written by Justice Alito, joined by Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Scalia, Justice Kennedy, and Justice Thomas. The opinion of the court was that the privacy act was insufficiently clear about whether mental and emotional distress resulting from willful and intentional public disclosure of highly confidential medical information met the "actual damage" phrase in the privacy act. Law dictionaries define "actual damage" as proven, not presumed with no mention of pecuniary loss as a requirement. Justice Sotomayor wrote a scathing dissent and was joined by Justices Breyer and Ginsburg.

The chief judge of the district court found that the government agencies (FAA, DOT, and SSA) had violated the privacy act multiple times in conducting the Operation Safe Pilot investigation, and this was never challenged by the 9th Circuit or the Supreme Court. I have thousands of pages of government documents (internal memos, emails, depositions, sworn declarations, project plan for OSP, testimony before Congress, etc.) from discovery as the case moved through the courts, and there is abundant evidence of the privacy act violations, then government lawyers committing perjury to conceal the violations.

I'm writing a book about the experience which should be published by late next year.

The SCOTUS case number is 10-1024.

I should also point out that the Wikipedia article linked by Velocity173 is in error about the date my new airman certificate was issued after the revocation. The March 1, 2008 issuance was for "English Proficient"... The actual date of issuance of my new certificate was September 11, 2006.
 
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Stan Cooper said:
Operation Safe Pilot. :) Actually, I lost on a technicality in a 3 to 5 decision.
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Bummer. I guess you got your medical back regardless. I didn't see that you had posted before I hit 'submit' and didn't want to go into the gory details of the case and your claim. The main issue in all of that revolved around the failure of the agencies to give proper notice prior to sharing database information. Now 'giving notice' for the feds means to publish something in the federal register. I don't know about you, but the federal register isn't on my daily breakfast literature list. 'Giving notice' that way reminds me of a scene from 'hitchhikers guide to the galaxy' where the complainant is informed that proper notice of his planet being slated for destruction was given:

“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

With the prior litigation around 'operation safe pilot', I would hope the agencies have gotten smarter and actually published the required notices and disclosures before they started data-mining. They did similar stuff with the VA and social security database in an attempt to confiscate firearms, so its not like there is no experience by the feds in the time since.

The Court's opinion was written by Justice Alito, joined by Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Scalia, Justice Kennedy, and Justice Thomas. The opinion of the court was that the privacy act was insufficiently clear about whether mental and emotional distress resulting from willful and intentional public disclosure of highly confidential medical information met the "actual damage" phrase in the privacy act. Law dictionaries define "actual damage" as proven, not presumed with no mention of pecuniary loss as a requirement. Justice Sotomayor wrote a scathing dissent and was joined by Justices Breyer and Ginsburg.
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Considering how the majority and dissenters split, I trust the court got this one right ;-)
 
wilkersk said:
I knew there was a reason I blew off that "0%" disability rating. When I went for my retirement physical, they told me I should file for disability, that way when I developed hearing loss or knee pain in my old age, I could claim a service connected disability.
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They were going through that back in 2002/2003 when I retired. People are getting service connected disability for cholesterol or BP issues. A natural occurrence with aging.

I elected to not apply for disability and protect my medical. Just a bum knee and bursitis in the shoulder and FAA approved meds.
 
Velocity173 said:
I think the FAA has no clue how big the problem really is. Sitting thru a VA disability class is like attending a real estate get rich quick sales program. Basically it’s how to milk the DOD on your way out the door. Just don’t tell the FAA about it though because you risk your career over the tax free grand or so extra you get a month.
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It is pretty dishonorable behavior to witness, and it is rampant even among officers. I can see the allure of maligning (if I had a penny for every fibromyalgia betty getting her medical pension check for life after 90 days of checking IDs at the gate and never lifting an additional finger the entire 4 years waiting on that MEB dispensation) if you're junior enlisted with little in the way of income potential on the outside. But to see full up major airline pilots snagging 90 pct ratings while still holding a class I, as part of the top 20 percentile of earners in this country already, while some poor army double amputee is lucky to grab 30 points per leg and a divorce because his dependa tech school wife don't wanna f--- him anymore, is especially bothersome to me.

In Texas, the scam is exacerbated due to incredibly deferent stance of the state towards military veterans. Everybody familiar with Texas knows property taxes are sky high due to the nature of no income tax. Disabled veterans get property tax relief at graduated rates as a function of their vs rating, all the way to full tax exemption. That's easily 10s of thousands in property taxes, entire home purchase class upgrades by virtue of that perverse incentive. The va system is broken.
 
BillTIZ said:
I elected to not apply for disability and protect my medical. Just a bum knee and bursitis in the shoulder and FAA approved meds.
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Protect your medical from what?

Having a service connected disability does not prevent you from getting a medical.

You just have to be honest and report it and deal with the special issuance process if required.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It is pretty dishonorable behavior to witness, and it is rampant even among officers. I can see the allure of maligning (if I had a penny for every fibromyalgia betty getting her medical pension check for life after 90 days of checking IDs at the gate and never lifting an additional finger the entire 4 years waiting on that MEB dispensation) if you're junior enlisted with little in the way of income potential on the outside. But to see full up major airline pilots snagging 90 pct ratings while still holding a class I, as part of the top 20 percentile of earners in this country already, while some poor army double amputee is lucky to grab 30 points per leg and a divorce because his dependa tech school wife don't wanna f--- him anymore, is especially bothersome to me.

In Texas, the scam is exacerbated due to incredibly deferent stance of the state towards military veterans. Everybody familiar with Texas knows property taxes are sky high due to the nature of no income tax. Disabled veterans get property tax relief at graduated rates as a function of their vs rating, all the way to full tax exemption. That's easily 10s of thousands in property taxes, entire home purchase class upgrades by virtue of that perverse incentive. The va system is broken.
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Maybe it’s different in other services, but when I was coming off active duty in the Navy and had to sit through all of the DAV briefings on how to get the most money from the govt, they were telling officer and enlisted equally how to ‘maximize’ the benefits. I didn’t see officers getting better deals than enlisted.

I left AD as an O4 with 16 years and got a whopping 0%.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It is pretty dishonorable behavior to witness, and it is rampant even among officers. I can see the allure of maligning (if I had a penny for every fibromyalgia betty getting her medical pension check for life after 90 days of checking IDs at the gate and never lifting an additional finger the entire 4 years waiting on that MEB dispensation) if you're junior enlisted with little in the way of income potential on the outside. But to see full up major airline pilots snagging 90 pct ratings while still holding a class I, as part of the top 20 percentile of earners in this country already, while some poor army double amputee is lucky to grab 30 points per leg and a divorce because his dependa tech school wife don't wanna f--- him anymore, is especially bothersome to me.

In Texas, the scam is exacerbated due to incredibly deferent stance of the state towards military veterans. Everybody familiar with Texas knows property taxes are sky high due to the nature of no income tax. Disabled veterans get property tax relief at graduated rates as a function of their vs rating, all the way to full tax exemption. That's easily 10s of thousands in property taxes, entire home purchase class upgrades by virtue of that perverse incentive. The va system is broken.
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I remember in my VA disability class there were maybe 30 people with 3 of us actually retiring. All the rest were young, healthy, aviation MOS soldiers. After the briefer rattled off maybe a hundred or so ailments, he throws his hand up and says “now who’s gonna claim disability here!” I look around and see the entire class (minus me) with their hands in the air and a **** eating grin on their faces.

Couple months later at a retirement benefits brief, the female briefer say to us “can you all believe that there are those that do 20 years and don’t claim anything? You’re not the same person after 20 years and you should get disability for it.” I felt like saying no **** lady, I’m not the same person after 20 years but I didn’t sit around on my fat *** and let myself go to the point of requiring medical benefits. Also, the system is supposed to pay for “service related injuries” and not a bunch of BS like athletes foot and erectile dysfunction.

I think what amazes me most, isn’t the amount of vets getting the “DOD cash grab,” it’s the jobs that they are allowed to have after. I worked with about 7 Army DOD civilian pilots on nights. I was curious if any of them were actually getting disability from their previous active Army service. Only 1 of the 7 said he wasn’t getting disability. Just so happens he was our best civ instructor in my opinion. At any rate, the other 6 or so we’re all getting VA disability for something, especially back issues. So here you have a bunch of civilians, getting a 30-60 % disability rating for so-called injuries sustained while doing their Army MOS, then get medical waivers to continue to do the MOS that apparently gave them that injury. :confused: All along while getting paid retirement from the Army and now getting paid DOD money for the same job they did on active...without having to go to the field and live in a tent! :D Only in America can you scam the government out of money like that and still be legal.
 
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Velocity173 said:
I remember in my VA disability class there were maybe 30 people with 3 of us actually retiring. All the rest were young, healthy, aviation MOS soldiers. After the briefer rattled off maybe a hundred or so ailments, he throws his hand up and says “now who’s gonna claim disability here!” I look around and see the entire class (minus me) with their hands in the air and a **** eating grin on their faces.

Couple months later at a retirement benefits brief, the female briefer say to us “can you all believe that there are those that do 20 years and don’t claim anything? You’re not the same person after 20 years and you should get disability for it.” I felt like saying no **** lady, I’m not the same person after 20 years but I didn’t sit around on my fat *** and let myself go to the point of requiring medical benefits. Also, the system is supposed to pay for “service related injuries” and not a bunch of BS like athletes foot and erectile dysfunction.

I think what amazes me most, isn’t the amount of vets getting the “DOD cash grab,” it’s the jobs that they are allowed to have after. I worked with about 7 Army DOD civilian pilots on nights. I was curious if any of them were actually getting disability from their previous active Army service. Only 1 of the 7 said he wasn’t getting disability. Just so happens he was our best civ instructor in my opinion. At any rate, the other 6 or so we’re all getting VA disability for something, especially back issues. So here you have a bunch of civilians, getting paid 30-60 % disability for so-called injuries sustained while doing their Army MOS, then get medical waivers to continue to do the MOS that apparently gave them that injury. :confused: All along while getting paid retirement from the Army and now getting paid DOD money for the same job they did on active...without having to go to the field and live in a tent! :D Only in America can you scam the government out of money like that and still be legal.
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It’s not just about the money. It’s also about jobs. If you come out without any disability rating, you end up at a disadvantage applying for any federal jobs.
 
Wow. Local boy does bad. One of those guys is from my small home town. I guess stupid cheaters are everywhere.
 
Grum.Man said:
I know a guy getting like $1,200 a month for PTSD and his day job is a cop..... :confused:
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Problem with PTSD is trying to determine the fakers vs real world PTSD. Years ago the VA stopped investigating each claim because they just simply didn’t have the time / resources to verify. Now, you claim it with a statement that says you feel threatened or have nightmares, it’s gonna get approved.

I know a guy getting 100 % for PTSD. Was a weatherman that never served in combat. That’s $2,900 tax free a month. No point in getting a job with that kind of money.

You can bet, there’s a heck of a lot more of these dudes out there. They just haven’t gotten caught yet.

http://avstop.com/news_feb_2010/southwest_pilot_pleads_guilty_to_fraud.htm
 
Kenny Phillips said:
It would be lovely if the local news station did a story on that.
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local news is not journalism; they're in the advertising and sales business. Speaking truth to power is not their charter. Astroturfing you into buying consumer potato is.
 
Just for the record, I was on SSA disability for one year (June, 1995 - June,1996) when I was at death's door. After the protease inhibitors were approved in late 1995 by the FDA and combined with other classes of anti-retrovirals like nucleoside and non-nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors, my HIV viral load plummeted, my CD4+ cell (the immune system cells attacked by HIV) count quickly returned to normal, I gained weight and my energy level returned to normal. By the time the SSA disability-FAA medical certificate database match for Operation Safe Pilot was done in 2004, I had been off of disability and back at work for eight years, yet the FAA thought I was still on disability; some "investigation." It's 2018, I'm healthy at 76, and my viral load has been undetectable and my CD4+ cell count normal for 20 years. My renal and liver functions are normal, and blood pressure and cholesterol are normal, and there are no side effects of the anti-retrovirals I'm on.

Life is good.
 
Stan Cooper said:
Just for the record, I was on SSA disability for one year (June, 1995 - June,1996) when I was at death's door. After the protease inhibitors were approved in late 1995 by the FDA and combined with other classes of anti-retrovirals like nucleoside and non-nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors, my HIV viral load plummeted, my CD4+ cell (the immune system cells attacked by HIV) count quickly returned to normal, I gained weight and my energy level returned to normal. By the time the SSA disability-FAA medical certificate database match for Operation Safe Pilot was done in 2004, I had been off of disability and back at work for eight years, yet the FAA thought I was still on disability; some "investigation." It's 2018, I'm healthy at 76, and my viral load has been undetectable and my CD4+ cell count normal for 20 years. My renal and liver functions are normal, and blood pressure and cholesterol are normal, and there are no side effects of the anti-retrovirals I'm on.

Life is good.
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Damn Stan....that's good to hear...the marvels of modern medicine.
 
You folks seem to think a VA disability rating results in extra cash, not always so. I have a small va rating after 21 years of service, I receive no additional money. That Disability part of my military retirement is tax free, a very small amount. Let’s not get too carried away with the veteran disability issue, many ( including my wife) suffer greatly from service connected issues. War is hell folks. As far as pilots lying on their medicals, especially those issues annotated in the article, screw them! They set that table.
 
RangeRider said:
You folks seem to think a VA disability rating results in extra cash, not always so. I have a small va rating after 21 years of service, I receive no additional money. That Disability part of my military retirement is tax free, a very small amount. Let’s not get too carried away with the veteran disability issue, many ( including my wife) suffer greatly from service connected issues. War is hell folks. As far as pilots lying on their medicals, especially those issues annotated in the article, screw them! They set that table.
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We aren't talking about your run of the mill 30 point disability rating guy, we're talking about those who have near full disability ratings and still are able to be employed in medical-dependent occupations for hundreds of thousands a year. In Texas they even get you off property taxes, which is a huge perverse incentive.

I had to sit through an entire conversation between a female barber vet (and dependent), and this 30 some year old separating vet she was attending to, about how to maximize VA rating (plus referrals to documentation savvy and friendly contacts in the San Antonio area), plus an equally morally abhorrent discussion about property tax dodge, while sitting on the chair at the BX barber shop yesterday. If I had a quarter for every soldier or airman with a dual income household and full medical fitness, using the disability payments as a de facto military pension after serving 180 days of actual non-combat duty and 3 years of medical outprocessing, I'd be retired by now. It's absolutely rampant. I'm sorry it tarnishes the landscape for folks like you purport your disability rating as legitimate medical hardship, but it has to be said.

$91B request for FY19 just for benefits and compensation under the VA budget. We have airline CAs and FOs making 200/350K and not paying property taxes on their primary home in TX. I don't claim disability and probably looking at being means tested out of SS benefits I actually paid into, and not merely maligned for. I just can't get behind that behavior. I recognize there are folks who legitimately deserve this benefit. I cannot say in good conscience the majority of folks I encounter with the benefit warrant it, as a fellow tax payer. This is just a free money grab for a lot of folks who hide under the blank check we extend the deserving minority who actually need it. I have no compunction in levying this criticism, as a uniformed member.

If we don't exercise good stewardship as former servicemembers, we're gonna get regulated forcibly. It's always the legitimately needy who suffer within the demographic when the overhaul occurs. We are still a very small amount of the population, and the sacrosanct nature of the military status is not a given in a Country where fewer and fewer families have or know somebody in the military. Don't shoot the messenger.


Interesting side note. This guy killed his wife in 2014 over divorce monetary related issues (the guy killed her, but I still contend the nature of divorce law in this Country is an absolute pre-requisite for these tragedies actually happening, see OJ simpson et al) and is now serving life. Pretty ostentatious life he and his wife lived, in part due to his seeking govt contracts under disabled vet status (another cash cow abused program in govt contracting circles). I digress.
 
Velocity173 said:
I think the FAA has no clue how big the problem really is. Sitting thru a VA disability class is like attending a real estate get rich quick sales program. Basically it’s how to milk the DOD on your way out the door. Just don’t tell the FAA about it though because you risk your career over the tax free grand or so extra you get a month.
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Well said. When I got out they were basically trying to talk people into claiming things to get extra money every month. Lucky for me, my dad and Uncle's were all military/civilian pilots and they taught me long ago to never claim anything medically (in addition to the whole honesty/integrity thing). I basically had to forcibly decline and get out of there. Too bad for those that fell for it and needed to get Class I/II medicals in their future. The FAA gets a sealed copy of your military medical records prior to employment. I've heard some of the horror stories.
 
Okay, I think I see where your coming from. I wasn't aware that a vet could receive 100% disability and work full time too. I retired from the Army in 98, and don't recall any attempt to encourage me to claim disability. I suppose that's changed. I then went on to serve 18 years in federal law enforcement, where fortunately, was never seriously injured. As far as disabled vet contracting, WOW! I had no idea this was taking place, I can certainly see how this is creating a hostile business climate. I do know it's very difficult for a young person to get hired here at Ft Bliss without previous military service, sure to create animosity. I think these programs get started with the best of intensions, but then grow, like everything else in government (TSA). A couple years ago I noticed billboards advertising for welfare applicants, no joke. As far as tax reduction on primary residence, I take advantage of that, it does help reduce my property tax burden, and I make no apologies. Living now on two pensions, and social security ( I paid into the damn Ponzi scheme for 45 years) and investments I made throughout my working years I'm now fully retired. I still use the VA for medical care, it used to suck, but has seen vast improvement over the last year. I have noticed over the years the same folks, wandering the halls, apparently able bodied, seeking disability ratings increases. I have also seen vets ruined for life, whom we can't do enough for. If only they had a magneto repair shop, I would be fully satisfied. Got to feed my horses, good day.
 
Radar Contact said:
Well said. When I got out they were basically trying to talk people into claiming things to get extra money every month. Lucky for me, my dad and Uncle's were all military/civilian pilots and they taught me long ago to never claim anything medically (in addition to the whole honesty/integrity thing). I basically had to forcibly decline and get out of there. Too bad for those that fell for it and needed to get Class I/II medicals in their future. The FAA gets a sealed copy of your military medical records prior to employment. I've heard some of the horror stories.
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I can cut my grandfather some slack for the 20 % he got in WWII (Tarawa, Saipan, Guadalcanal) for a bullet to the thigh and one to through the wrist. Makes me laugh though when I see dudes that I served with getting 60 % for a bunch of BS. You’ll see them out on the weekends skiing, playing golf and riding motorcycles too!

When you can collect disability for “undiagnosed pain,” the system is broke.

https://www.military.com/militaryadvantage/2018/04/06/court-rules-chronic-pain-va-disability.html
 
I saw a post from an airline pilot a few weeks ago saying that he was 100% mentally disabled w/the VA, and still flying. The majority of the people I encounter seem to get 70-80%, and show no visible signs of disability.
 
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