Found a use for vectors to final


With VTF, activating the approach makes the course along the extended intermediate leg as being the active leg.

In that case - ATC can give me a vector to intercept. I’ll load Vectors to Final, and by flying the ATC directions I could intercept the line anywhere - not just at a fix.

What would happen if I loaded and activated the approach before I started to taxi? Would it override the flight plan and give me some odd directions?
 
WDD said:
In that case - ATC can give me a vector to intercept. I’ll load Vectors to Final, and by flying the ATC directions I could intercept the line anywhere - not just at a fix.

What would happen if I loaded and activated the approach before I started to taxi? Would it override the flight plan and give me some odd directions?
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I've occasionally been cleared to direct the initial fix of an approach from 20–50+ nm away, especially for airports without towers. In that case, you really want to have the approach loaded without VTF, so why not just load and activate instead of doing three steps: 1) load, 2) open your flight plane, 3) select the initial waypoint and choose "Direct to"?
 
You might be given vectors to intercept vs vectors to a fix. If given vectors to intercept, and you had the approach from the initial fix loaded and activated, you'd then have to re load the approach with Vectors to Final. (Correct??)

IF you load Vectors to Final, and they want you to fly to a fix instead, could you not pull up the approach and activate/pick the fix / direct to? Or would those fixes not show / not be there since you're on "Vectors to Final"?
 
WDD said:
You might be given vectors to intercept vs vectors to a fix. If given vectors to intercept, and you had the approach from the initial fix loaded and activated, you'd then have to re load the approach with Vectors to Final. (Correct??)

IF you load Vectors to Final, and they want you to fly to a fix instead, could you not pull up the approach and activate/pick the fix / direct to? Or would those fixes not show / not be there since you're on "Vectors to Final"?
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I'm pretty sure almost all, if not all, Navigators nowadays display all the Waypoints that are on the Final Approach Course.
 
WDD said:
You might be given vectors to intercept vs vectors to a fix. If given vectors to intercept, and you had the approach from the initial fix loaded and activated, you'd then have to re load the approach with Vectors to Final. (Correct??)
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No, you would just go in and activate the first leg of the final approach course, and it will act the same as VTF.

In any case, you don't have to be too proactive about this. It's highly improbable that Centre would give you vectors to final for an RNAV approach to a little untowered airport outside a terminal area after already clearing you direct to one of the waypoints. Once they've given you direct to a waypoint somewhere on the T, made sure you know what phone number to call after landing, and cleared you, they pretty much want to forget about you and get on with other things. An uncontrolled airport will be one at a time anyway, so there will be no other traffic that they need to route you around. They'll probably just say "cleared for the approach; radar service terminated."

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that 10% of the time they do change their minds after giving you the initial direct clearance. You're still better off loading and activating the approach and very rarely having to do a few extra taps to reload, then you would be doing three times the work for every approach.

The only time reloading an approach is an issue is when you're very close and everything's happening fast. That generally occurs only at big airports and/or inside busy terminal areas. When you're 10 nm away you have all the time in the world, except maybe if you're flying a bizjet
 
WDD said:
With VTF, activating the approach makes the course along the extended intermediate leg as being the active leg.

In that case - ATC can give me a vector to intercept. I’ll load Vectors to Final, and by flying the ATC directions I could intercept the line anywhere - not just at a fix.

What would happen if I loaded and activated the approach before I started to taxi? Would it override the flight plan and give me some odd directions?
Click to expand...
I just checked this on the GTN trainer software. If you selected an IAF, activating the approach draws a magenta line from your present position to the IAF. I don't think it matters whether you are on the ground or in the air when you do this. It skips previous fixes, but they are still in the flight plan list.

If you selected vectors instead of an IAF, it draws a magenta line that appears to coincide with the leg that ends at the FAF, and leaves it up to ATC to figure out how to get you there. It skips previous fixes, but they are still in the flight plan list (except for the IAF unless you entered it as a fix before loading the approach).
 
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midlifeflyer said:
. . .the better part of the IPCs and recurrent instrument training I give is about the equipment. I have a short list of tasks. I'm not sure they are really edge cases, but they are tasks - real things that happen - which I have found many pilots don't know how to do.
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What are those tasks? I’m learning the IFR features of the GTN650, and would love to see your list.
 
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Does anyone have a reco on a gtn training class? I see Kings has one - but $180 is a bit much for what I think I’d get.

I’m piecing things together with you tube searches - but there’s got to be something better.

Thoughts?
 
Lon33 said:
What are those tasks? I’m learning the IFR features of the GTN650, and would love to see your list.
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Sure. No secret.

1. Intercept a course or radial.
2. Loading airway when entry point is behind you
3. Switch or reload approaches. - multiple scenarios.
4. Holding - multiple scenarios
5. Using the flight plan catalog for alternates.

#1 and #2 are really variations on a theme.
I could easily break out #3 into multiple scenarios. I thought most pilots practiced this enough when doing multiple practice approaches but I've seen a surprising number of questions where this is the answer to other situations. I guess it's the deference between the "application" and "correlation" levels of learning.
#4 Especially with the GTN and IFD capability to great holds on the fly, holds which are not parts of approaches and already in the database.
The last a tip or trick I like for practice sessions but its real benefit is being able to pre-load the flight and approach to an alternate during low workload when there is a realistic chance of missing the approach.

I'm on the fence whether "activate leg" belongs on the list alone because it arises in so many situations and in part of others in the list.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
2. Loading airway when entry point is behind you
Click to expand...
I'm not seeing a way to load airways in the GTN trainer. Do you have to enter the various fixes, or is there a way to just enter the airway name?
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not seeing a way to load airways in the GTN trainer. Do you have to enter the various fixes, or is there a way to just enter the airway name?
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The trainer should come with PDF manuals for the different devices. If not, you can find them online (here's the GTN 650 one: http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf).

For an airway, add your entry waypoint to the flight plan, then tap that waypoint and you'll have options to pick any of the airways that pass through it.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not seeing a way to load airways in the GTN trainer. Do you have to enter the various fixes, or is there a way to just enter the airway name?
Click to expand...
You can just enter the airway name. If you tap on a fix on the airway (entry point) one of the choices will be "load airway." Tap on that and all the airways which go through that point will show and you select the one you need. You'll then be given a list of other points on the airway to choose from for your exit point. The part about "behind you" is, if you are, say, coming from an airport, your "entry point" may be behind you, but you may need that in order to intercept the appropriate leg.
 
midlifeflyer said:
You can just enter the airway name. If you tap on a fix on the airway (entry point) one of the choices will be "load airway." Tap on that and all the airways which go through that point will show and you select the one you need. You'll then be given a list of other points on the airway to choose from for your exit point. The part about "behind you" is, if you are, say, coming from an airport, your "entry point" may be behind you, but you may need that in order to intercept the appropriate leg.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Sure. No secret.

1. Intercept a course or radial.
2. Loading airway when entry point is behind you
3. Switch or reload approaches. - multiple scenarios.
4. Holding - multiple scenarios
5. Using the flight plan catalog for alternates.

#1 and #2 are really variations on a theme.
I could easily break out #3 into multiple scenarios. I thought most pilots practiced this enough when doing multiple practice approaches but I've seen a surprising number of questions where this is the answer to other situations. I guess it's the deference between the "application" and "correlation" levels of learning.
#4 Especially with the GTN and IFD capability to great holds on the fly, holds which are not parts of approaches and already in the database.
The last a tip or trick I like for practice sessions but its real benefit is being able to pre-load the flight and approach to an alternate during low workload when there is a realistic chance of missing the approach.

I'm on the fence whether "activate leg" belongs on the list alone because it arises in so many situations and in part of others in the list.
Click to expand...
Thank you.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Sure. No secret.

1. Intercept a course or radial.
2. Loading airway when entry point is behind you
3. Switch or reload approaches. - multiple scenarios.
4. Holding - multiple scenarios
5. Using the flight plan catalog for alternates.

#1 and #2 are really variations on a theme.
I could easily break out #3 into multiple scenarios. I thought most pilots practiced this enough when doing multiple practice approaches but I've seen a surprising number of questions where this is the answer to other situations. I guess it's the deference between the "application" and "correlation" levels of learning.
#4 Especially with the GTN and IFD capability to great holds on the fly, holds which are not parts of approaches and already in the database.
The last a tip or trick I like for practice sessions but its real benefit is being able to pre-load the flight and approach to an alternate during low workload when there is a realistic chance of missing the approach.

I'm on the fence whether "activate leg" belongs on the list alone because it arises in so many situations and in part of others in the list.
Click to expand...
That's a great list. I have one other suggestion, just because it's so common in real life:
  • Follow an ATC heading vector off course, then rejoin the original flight plan.
 
David Megginson said:
That's a great list. I have one other suggestion, just because it's so common in real life:
  • Follow an ATC heading vector off course, then rejoin the original flight plan.
Click to expand...

Is this that common up there? I'm much more used to, after getting a heading for traffic or whatever, getting cleared direct to the next fix, not rejoining my original course.
 
RussR said:
Is this that common up there? I'm much more used to, after getting a heading for traffic or whatever, getting cleared direct to the next fix, not rejoining my original course.
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Either one -- "resume own navigation" (if the vector hasn't been going on for too long), "direct XXXXX, then flight plan route", "direct <destination>" (if I'm clear of terminal areas), or "take a deep breath and grab your pencil, because here comes a complete rerouting ... :("
 
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RussR said:
Is this that common up there? I'm much more used to, after getting a heading for traffic or whatever, getting cleared direct to the next fix, not rejoining my original course.
Click to expand...
It happens here too. It's actually one of my COVID videos. The scenario came from a NYC TRACON controller. (And pretty much every SID with an initial vector segment works that way, no?)
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Click to expand...

Made me laugh - right in the beginning - "And since I don't think I have ever heard and instruction from ATC to fly a bearing or radial away from a waypoint to nowhere in particular, we won't talk about those either" with the overlay text saying "probably simpler to use VOR or bearing pointer if you get one".

Yep, got one of those about a month ago. "Intercept the IRW 259 radial to 39 DME, then on course". I groaned then just switched the G1000 over to VOR mode, deciding that yes, like you say, that was just simpler...

I guess technically, that's not to "nowhere in particular", since it's to 39 DME, but still I knew I realistically wasn't going to get that far anyway before the Center turned me on course, and it wasn't a database fix anyway, I think it still counts...
 
RussR said:
Made me laugh - right in the beginning - "And since I don't think I have ever heard and instruction from ATC to fly a bearing or radial away from a waypoint to nowhere in particular, we won't talk about those either" with the overlay text saying "probably simpler to use VOR or bearing pointer if you get one".

Yep, got one of those about a month ago. "Intercept the IRW 259 radial to 39 DME, then on course". I groaned then just switched the G1000 over to VOR mode, deciding that yes, like you say, that was just simpler...

I guess technically, that's not to "nowhere in particular", since it's to 39 DME, but still I knew I realistically wasn't going to get that far anyway before the Center turned me on course, and it wasn't a database fix anyway, I think it still counts...
Click to expand...
Well "259 Radial outbound until 39 DME" is at least susceptible of creating a user waypoint and receiving positive GPS course guidance, it's not quite the "nowhere" I was thinking of. It's one of the other videos in the "COVID" group (one of the few tasks easier in the Garmins than the Avidyne). I'd use GPS for that one, especially if it was part of my clearance in the ground. But I think a lot of pilots would choose green needles for that one.

But you remind me...creating a user waypoint should probably be on my list, although it's kind of a variation for both the intercept and hold categories. BTW, I know some on the list are more esoteric than others, so some of the variations are done on the ground or in a device, rather than being sprung on the pilot in the air.
 
That would make a good test question.

For a 650 and six pack user I guess I would:
  • Find the freq for that VOR
  • Put that into the Nav freq and make active
  • Spin the VOR dial to 259
  • Switch from GPsS to VLoc
  • I should get the distance - I think -on the 650
  • When I get to the desired distance switch back to GPS, open the flight plan and activate the leg to put me back on course

thougts?
 
RussR said:
Is this that common up there? I'm much more used to, after getting a heading for traffic or whatever, getting cleared direct to the next fix, not rejoining my original course.
Click to expand...
It’s common in the Los Angeles area. I’m sure also in other very congested areas
 
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If you had to go direct to the radial/DME, I would go Waypoint info>create waypoint>select Radial/Distance key +Position +REF WPT key-the VOR +Radial key + Distance key (DME). Back key, create. Then Direct button, which will default to the WP you just created.

It seems like a lot of button pushing, but only takes a few seconds if you know where to look.

If it was to intercept the radial, then I'd do as other suggest with green needles.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It happens here too. It's actually one of my COVID videos. The scenario came from a NYC TRACON controller. (And pretty much every SID with an initial vector segment works that way, no?)
Click to expand...
That’s the first time I’ve ever seen an Avidyne in action. I sure do like that the OBS button is also a twisty button. Push, twist to desired course/radial all I one fell swoop. No touchy screen number entering tap tap tappy required. If I was in the market to install a Navigator, that feature alone might make the sale for an Avidyne.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Well "259 Radial outbound until 39 DME" is at least susceptible of creating a user waypoint and receiving positive GPS course guidance, it's not quite the "nowhere" I was thinking of. It's one of the other videos in the "COVID" group (one of the few tasks easier in the Garmins than the Avidyne). I'd use GPS for that one, especially if it was part of my clearance in the ground. But I think a lot of pilots would choose green needles for that one.
Click to expand...

That was the issue, it was in the air. If I remember right, I picked up the clearance while airborne and was cleared direct destination. Then a minute later it was "for military airspace, intercept the IRW R-259 to 39 DME, then direct destination".

I wasn't that far from the R-259, so not a lot of time to set it up, and I was still climbing and doing other things, so the far easier solution for the moment was to just switch to VLOC mode and let the autopilot capture it while I did other things. Especially since it's a local VOR that I didn't need to look up the frequency for.

In this case, I fly the same route a lot (though hadn't had the radial issued before), and knew about 90% that I wouldn't ever make it to the 39 DME before being switched to Center and getting another revised clearance. And sure enough, that's what happened!
 
luvflyin said:
That’s the first time I’ve ever seen an Avidyne in action. I sure do like that the OBS button is also a twisty button. Push, twist to desired course/radial all I one fell swoop. No touchy screen number entering tap tap tappy required. If I was in the market to install a Navigator, that feature alone might make the sale for an Avidyne.
Click to expand...
You might enjoy the other two videos in the series. All three do comparisons between the way Garmin does it and the way Avidyne does it. None take the position one is "better" than the other.

But there really doesn't have to be a tap-tap-tap with the Garmin. In my video it's a stand-along unit. I'm not showing what primary panel it is being used with. In the real world, its probably going to be tied to an HSI or CDI or PFD. At worst you'll tap OBS on the Garmin and then turn your course selector on the HSI/PFD/CDI to the course/radial you want.
 
midlifeflyer said:
You might enjoy the other two videos in the series. All three do comparisons between the way Garmin does it and the way Avidyne does it. None take the position one is "better" than the other.

But there really doesn't have to be a tap-tap-tap with the Garmin. In my video it's a stand-along unit. I'm not showing what primary panel it is being used with. In the real world, its probably going to be tied to an HSI or CDI or PFD. At worst you'll tap OBS on the Garmin and then turn your course selector on the HSI/PFD/CDI to the course/radial you want.
Click to expand...
Yeah. I was gonna edit in the OBS on the CDI thing just after posting but didn’t. Even so, I really like how Avidyne thought ahead and made it a one stop shopping thang.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. I was gonna edit in the OBS on the CDI thing just after posting but didn’t. Even so, I really like how Avidyne thought ahead and made it a one stop shopping thang.
Click to expand...
There are definitely specific things I like better about each unit. I really like both a lot.
 
WDD said:
...

What would happen if I loaded and activated the approach before I started to taxi? Would it override the flight plan and give me some odd directions?
Click to expand...

I think it will work but suspend sequencing. If you unsusp, it will sequence you to the MAP (and susp) since you're already on the ground and there.

EDIT *****SORRY**** I was assuming you're coming back to the airport, which you're not (cuz that's what I do a lot). If you activate on the ground, it will give you guidance immediately to the IAF of that approach, or left/right of final approach course, depending on how you activate it.

I'm sure you mention this as a hypothetical, but realize it is not too useful. :)
 
I've been experimenting with the 430, 650, 750 as I've had the privilege to fly behind these quite a bit...also been in simulators with these, so....

Just for the heck of it, I've loaded full approaches and activated the leg just before FAFs. I've found they always gave me proper guidance even though I was well outside of the "starting" fix. IOW, the needles (or HSI) will give me guidance as if I activated VTF no matter how far out I was even though I activated a leg. The only "gotcha" seems to be the distance...it would be to the FAF, understandably.

So...I've convinced myself that I would always load IAF and activate the leg to the FAF. Chances are they will vector me to that leg. If they vector me to a leg further out, I may or may not activate that leg. If they direct me to a fix, I will just DR that fix. But I never VTF because I don't want to lose the fixes (if they have changed this, as a poster stated, and fixes are there now, that's great and about time. Stupid to have deleted them, IMHO).

I've done this many times with predicable results. But I'm not sure whether this is a guarenteed thing with Garmin, so I'm very careful to watch it. Anyone else have insight on this?
 
WDD said:
That would make a good test question.

For a 650 and six pack user I guess I would:
  • Find the freq for that VOR
  • Put that into the Nav freq and make active
  • Spin the VOR dial to 259
  • Switch from GPsS to VLoc
  • Make the VOR the active GPS waypoint to get the distance readout.
  • I should get the distance - I think -on the 650
  • When I get to the desired distance switch back to GPS, open the flight plan and activate the leg to put me back on course
  • Switch back from VLOC to GPS.

thougts?
Click to expand...
I added two more steps. Unless you have "real" DME, you need to make the VOR the active waypoint in the GPS if you want the distance readout. And that's a catch. Remember that GPS is always going "to" something. That means no magenta (or any other color) line on the moving map. You are looking at it the distance readout and very generalize situational awareness. If you are not used to using the map with course guidance, that can potentially be confusing. Depending on your AP setup, you may have to do it in HDG mode.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I added two more steps. Unless you have "real" DME, you need to make the VOR the active waypoint in the GPS if you want the distance readout. And that's a catch. Remember that GPS is always going "to" something. That means no magenta (or any other color) line on the moving map. You are looking at it the distance readout and very generalize situational awareness. If you are not used to using the map with course guidance, that can potentially be confusing. Depending on your AP setup, you may have to do it in HDG mode.
Click to expand...

Using the "nearest" function can also get you the distance from the VOR, without having to make it an active waypoint, assuming 1) it's closest enough to be one of the top several "nearest", and 2) you don't need to use some other page for navigational purposes. Or of course 3) you have a second GPS to monitor the distance on.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's actually one of my COVID videos. The scenario came from a NYC TRACON controller. (And pretty much every SID with an initial vector segment works that way, no?)
Click to expand...
Thank you for making these videos, Mark. At times I find myself flying with students who own a GTN, and the comparison you make between the IFD (which is very familiar to me) and the GTN (which isn't yet) is very helpful for me.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
Thank you for making these videos, Mark. At times I find myself flying with students who own a GTN, and the comparison you make between the IFD (which is very familiar to me) and the GTN (which isn't yet) is very helpful for me.

- Martin
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Thank you for the kind words. Your videos are among the most instructive I've seen on many levels.

The background might be interesting. I have a friend I do instrument recurrent training with who has an IFD. Those videos were basically me teaching myself the IFD so I can be a better instructor.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I added two more steps. Unless you have "real" DME, you need to make the VOR the active waypoint in the GPS if you want the distance readout. And that's a catch. Remember that GPS is always going "to" something. That means no magenta (or any other color) line on the moving map. You are looking at it the distance readout and very generalize situational awareness. If you are not used to using the map with course guidance, that can potentially be confusing. Depending on your AP setup, you may have to do it in HDG mode.
Click to expand...
Good stuff. A couple of notes:
  1. If it's advisory only (not for primary IFR nav), Direct To on a secondary device like a phone or tablet is a convenient way to get continuous distance reading from a waypoint without messing up your main navigation.
  2. OBS mode in a panel-mounted GPS supports navigation to or from a waypoint. (that's the one exception to your statement that GPS is always going "to" something).
 
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