Forum Newbie with a GPS Question

coolgy59

coolgy59

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Jan 1, 2012
Messages
6
Location
Southern MD
Display Name
Display name:
James R.
Hi Guys and Gals!

I've been stalking the forums for a little under a month now and finally decided it was time to crawl out of my hole and introduce myself. I've got my PP Certificate with around 160 hours under my belt (which is impressive that I can fit those under there since I wear a size 42 pant). I started to fly in good ol' Jersey, moved to Florida for a bit, and am now a transplant in MD.

I've been a little outta the loop on flying over the past year, but I think I've settled on a new place to fly and am looking to fly at least monthly. My local flying club rents some nice planes and none are equipped with GPS capabilities; in the past this wouldn't have been much of a problem, but now that I'm flying around the SFRA, I want to ensure that I don't get a nice F-16 escort during a $100 hamburger hop. Also, I think it'll be a nice reference on some longer cross-country flights. At the moment, I'm starting from scratch with no portable GPS and no iPad.

With all that said, I've been perusing this and a few other forums and am having a hard time deciding on what would work best for me. There seems to be quite the surge behind the iPad and I've gotta admit that WingX looks pretty awesome. Plus, seems like the price can't be beat, though I'm a bit concerned about it's reliability for flight purposes. I've also read good things about the Aera and I'm thinking that the 510 would be suited for my VFR purposes (doubt I'll subscribe to WX right away, seems pretty pricey, but I like knowing I have it if necessary). My main focus, however, is on the AV8OR Ace (please don't flame me); its got a nice big screen and is fairly intuitive interface from what I've seen and appears to be perfect for what I want and may want in the future. Thoughts?

Anyway, look forward to talking to you all and I've enjoyed reading all the threads so far! Thanks for the assistance and happy flying!
 
Welcome to POA.

For the money, it's hard to beat the iPad & fore flight combo. Reliability hasn't been a problem so far. Maybe folks who fly more could comment.
 
coolgy59 said:
Hi Guys and Gals!

I've been stalking the forums for a little under a month now and finally decided it was time to crawl out of my hole and introduce myself. I've got my PP Certificate with around 160 hours under my belt (which is impressive that I can fit those under there since I wear a size 42 pant). I started to fly in good ol' Jersey, moved to Florida for a bit, and am now a transplant in MD.

I've been a little outta the loop on flying over the past year, but I think I've settled on a new place to fly and am looking to fly at least monthly. My local flying club rents some nice planes and none are equipped with GPS capabilities; in the past this wouldn't have been much of a problem, but now that I'm flying around the SFRA, I want to ensure that I don't get a nice F-16 escort during a $100 hamburger hop. Also, I think it'll be a nice reference on some longer cross-country flights. At the moment, I'm starting from scratch with no portable GPS and no iPad.

With all that said, I've been perusing this and a few other forums and am having a hard time deciding on what would work best for me. There seems to be quite the surge behind the iPad and I've gotta admit that WingX looks pretty awesome. Plus, seems like the price can't be beat, though I'm a bit concerned about it's reliability for flight purposes. I've also read good things about the Aera and I'm thinking that the 510 would be suited for my VFR purposes (doubt I'll subscribe to WX right away, seems pretty pricey, but I like knowing I have it if necessary). My main focus, however, is on the AV8OR Ace (please don't flame me); its got a nice big screen and is fairly intuitive interface from what I've seen and appears to be perfect for what I want and may want in the future. Thoughts?

Anyway, look forward to talking to you all and I've enjoyed reading all the threads so far! Thanks for the assistance and happy flying!
Click to expand...

An iPad is a secondary unit at best. If you want a primary GPS get either the Garmin 796 or 696 if you can't swing that. I have the iPad2 with WingX, as cool as it is, I think it sucks for use in the airplane due mainly to visibility problems from the dim screen plus you have to have a glare shield to use it at all during the day. Looking back I would have not bought it if I knew exactly how lame the package was.
 
I agree with Henning that you don't want to use Foreflight/Ipad for your "primary" GPS source. Get an aviation GPS for that, and if you can afford one with XM weather you'll be glad for it.

On the other hand, I've had a better time with Foreflight/WingX/IPad than Henning. It's been great for use as an EFB and chart display, but I fly mostly high-wing airplanes so glare is not a problem. In the Diamond it was a little bit harder to read but still useable.

As in most things in aviation, the answer to this either/or question is "both".
 
I have no experience with the Ace; but, after several years on the market, I have yet to actually see one in use. At OSH two years ago, a very diligent pilot friend shopped them all, and settled on the Anywhere Map Quadra.

As for me, I have a Garmin 396 (principally for the weather), and an iPad with ForeFlight (because it gives me all of the charts and plates). Between those, and the Garmin 430 in the panel, I have managed not to get lost yet.
 
My 2 cents... 'have to agree that some sort of pro, portable aviation unit should be your primary. Maybe pickup a used 296 for $100-200. 396 and more $ if you want color. Then, for backup and fancy stuff, add a tablet or smartphone. In the right (wrong) conditions, the iPad can be unreadable. I have an iPad, but am anticipating getting an Android 7-8" tablet soon. Something like the new Samsung Galaxy 7.7". It has a super bright screen that should have better readability in sun. A full WingX will be available for Android soon and, in the meantime, Naviator gives you a nice flying map with sectionals, etc, for $50. I find the iPad is just too big as a kneeboard replacement. But, IMO, having some sort of tablet is indispensable. Internet, weather, flight planning, email, and even entertainment while you're hanging out somewhere, waiting for weather.
 
Appreciate all the input!

Agreed that an actual aviation GPS is my first choice; I'm still learning the subtle nuances of tablets as GPS units from an FAA standpoint.

Has anybody heard of any good solid reviews for the standard AV8OR recently? I've read extreme positive and negative views on this forum, but it seems like they've made some upgrades since those threads were posted.

As for Garmins 49X and 39X series, I know they're discontinued new, but does Garmin still support these units and do they typically continue to provide Nav updates well after a product is discontinued? Picking up one of these units was my initial thought, but if I can't update the Nav Data in a year or two I don't want to buy a completely new GPS. Thanks!
 
coolgy59 said:
Appreciate all the input!

Agreed that an actual aviation GPS is my first choice; I'm still learning the subtle nuances of tablets as GPS units from an FAA standpoint.

Has anybody heard of any good solid reviews for the standard AV8OR recently? I've read extreme positive and negative views on this forum, but it seems like they've made some upgrades since those threads were posted.

As for Garmins 49X and 39X series, I know they're discontinued new, but does Garmin still support these units and do they typically continue to provide Nav updates well after a product is discontinued? Picking up one of these units was my initial thought, but if I can't update the Nav Data in a year or two I don't want to buy a completely new GPS. Thanks!
Click to expand...


None of the AV8OR series is sold anymore. Stay away from anything labeled Bendix King.
 
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Henning said:
None of the AV8OR series is sold anymore. Stay away from anything labeled Bendix King.
Click to expand...
Completely off topic, but what happened to Bendix/King in the last few years? 2009 KY97A $1700, 2011 $3200. All their prices have doubled while Garmin and others have stayed the same. What did I miss? :confused:
 
tyndall said:
Completely off topic, but what happened to Bendix/King in the last few years? 2009 KY97A $1700, 2011 $3200. All their prices have doubled while Garmin and others have stayed the same. What did I miss? :confused:
Click to expand...

They are a Ginger stepchild at Honeywell. The only reason they exist is to meet legal obligations. Once those obligations go away, so will BK. They get no funding.
 
Considering you seem to have this one wrong:
Henning said:
None of the AV8OR series is sold anymore. Stay away from anything labeled Bendix King.
Click to expand...


What evidence do you have for this:
Henning said:
They are a Ginger stepchild at Honeywell. The only reason they exist is to meet legal obligations. Once those obligations go away, so will BK. They get no funding.
Click to expand...
 
tyndall said:
Completely off topic, but what happened to Bendix/King in the last few years? 2009 KY97A $1700, 2011 $3200. All their prices have doubled while Garmin and others have stayed the same. What did I miss? :confused:
Click to expand...

Their business model went from "Hey do you want to buy this?" to "Here's how bad its going to suck for you when you HAVE to replace this."

I'm sure those factory refurb KLN89B units are just falling off the shelf for a low low price of $6,800.00
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Considering you seem to have this one wrong:



What evidence do you have for this:
Click to expand...

From the way I am treated as the owner of a $5000 AV8OR Horizon that has never worked and from the conversations I have had over the issue with Honeywell and BK reps at LGB/AOPA & OSH and their offices in Phoenix.

You may still be able to buy the little AV8OR unit, but they are just remnants that will not be supported.
 
Henning said:
From the way I am treated as the owner of a $5000 AV8OR Horizon that has never worked and from the conversations I have had over the issue with Honeywell and BK reps at LGB/AOPA & OSH and their offices in Phoenix.

You may still be able to buy the little AV8OR unit, but they are just remnants that will not be supported.
Click to expand...
You'd have made youself more clear if you simply said "I have a $5000 AV8OR Horizon that has never worked and from the conversations I have had over the issue with Honeywell and BK reps at LGB/AOPA & OSH and their offices in Phoenix, they aren't going to be around much longer."
 
I have had the AV8OR for close to 3 years, used on every flight, support from BK on any issues reported has been excellent - plus they are adding new features, works with the Zaon XRX unit via bluetooth, can handle XM weather & radio

Not bad for $499 or whatever it is today
 
Personally, I think there are three levels of portable GPS.

1) The 696 and 796 with weather. The large screens set these apart, as does weather.

2) The Aera 510 and up - weather is awesome.

3) Everything else.

I wouldn't bother with #1 or #2 unless my budget allowed a WX subscription.

Which leaves me in category 3. In that category, I buy used or when the units are marked down when they are discontinued. You'd be amazed at the capability you can purchase for a hundred dollars or so on the used market. Sure, the database may not be current, but that's why you own a sectional. Even without a current database, an old B/W Garmin or Lowrance gives you ten times the information you need to safely navigate VFR. Heck, my 20 year old Trimble Flightmate Pro still provides plenty of nav data - certainly more than anyone had in the bad 'ol VOR days.

For what it is worth, I was an early adopter of the AV8OR - I made the purchase the day after it was released at Oshkosh. I used it on the 4 hour flight home. I was overwhelmingly disappointed and returned it ASAP.
 
If you are a VFR only pilot, and intend to keep it that way for a while, what would be wrong with a Garmin 296? Nice color screen, good support, obstacle avoidance data, and $549 at Gulf Coast Avionics? (only price I checked, may be cheaper elsewhere)
 
coolgy59 said:
Hi Guys and Gals!

I've been stalking the forums for a little under a month now and finally decided it was time to crawl out of my hole and introduce myself. I've got my PP Certificate with around 160 hours under my belt (which is impressive that I can fit those under there since I wear a size 42 pant). I started to fly in good ol' Jersey, moved to Florida for a bit, and am now a transplant in MD.

I've been a little outta the loop on flying over the past year, but I think I've settled on a new place to fly and am looking to fly at least monthly. My local flying club rents some nice planes and none are equipped with GPS capabilities; in the past this wouldn't have been much of a problem, but now that I'm flying around the SFRA, I want to ensure that I don't get a nice F-16 escort during a $100 hamburger hop. Also, I think it'll be a nice reference on some longer cross-country flights. At the moment, I'm starting from scratch with no portable GPS and no iPad.

With all that said, I've been perusing this and a few other forums and am having a hard time deciding on what would work best for me. There seems to be quite the surge behind the iPad and I've gotta admit that WingX looks pretty awesome. Plus, seems like the price can't be beat, though I'm a bit concerned about it's reliability for flight purposes. I've also read good things about the Aera and I'm thinking that the 510 would be suited for my VFR purposes (doubt I'll subscribe to WX right away, seems pretty pricey, but I like knowing I have it if necessary). My main focus, however, is on the AV8OR Ace (please don't flame me); its got a nice big screen and is fairly intuitive interface from what I've seen and appears to be perfect for what I want and may want in the future. Thoughts?

Anyway, look forward to talking to you all and I've enjoyed reading all the threads so far! Thanks for the assistance and happy flying!
Click to expand...


Cool,

I have an IPad with Foreflight and am impressed, amazed and satisfied with it. For the same subscription fee I also have Foreflight on my IPhone which is much handier than you might think because you have quick weather and flight planning data in my pocket at all times.

Should you decide to go the IPad route, I would suggest that you evaluate both WingX AND Foreflight.

Good luck with your decision.
 
I've been using an iFly 700 for about a year and am very pleased both with the unit and with the support from the small company that produces it. Despite having only a handful of folks and only a couple of coders, the system capabilities have continued to grow over time and its value in terms of features per dollar cannot be beat. Report a bug or a feature wish on the website, and get a response from the owner within a day or two...or call 'em on the phone to chat about it.

The current software (v6) supports georeferenced approach plates and airport diagrams (as well as all the enroute charts that it has since day one), ADSB Wx (using the SkyRadar receiver), ADSB traffic (but only if someone in your vicinity has ADSB-out to wake up the broadcast), etc., etc. Next software version coming early 2012 will include synthetic terrain views.

The model 700 hardware's a little long in the tooth now, but an updated 720 unit is currently in beta and will have a brighter screen and wi-fi (for easier updates and wireless link to the SkyRadar receiver in the cockpit).

Initial purchase price is low compared to the competition, and the recurring chart subscriptions are low compared to the competition as well. Originally, the feature set lagged a bit, but it's caught up now and packs a lot of bang for the buck.

Biggest criticism the iFly usually gets is that it doesn't have a built-in battery. I carry a battery pack in my flight bag with a cig lighter adapter; if I had a failure of ship's power I might pull that out as I was grabbing my handheld radio. In the meantime, I appreciate the small form factor that allows a comfy mount on the yoke, right where I want it.

On paper, I don't think an iFly compares well against an iPad + Foreflight or an iPad + WingX. It boils down to "they both cost about the same and do about the same aviation-wise, but then the iPad does everything else an iPad can do, too." In the cockpit, though, I think the form factor of the iPad is a turnoff for some pilots, and the iFly is a better fit.
 
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I normally fly with G1000 airplanes when the weather is poor. My backup GPS is a Garmin 96C. Small, good battery life, and does everything I need for backup purposes or as my "primary" VFR GPS.
 
CT4ME said:
My 2 cents... 'have to agree that some sort of pro, portable aviation unit should be your primary. Maybe pickup a used 296 for $100-200. 396 and more $ if you want color. Then, for backup and fancy stuff, add a tablet or smartphone.
Click to expand...

+1

And yes, Garmin/Jepp continues to update the aviation databases. I have a long discontinued Garmin Pilot III - the software (OS) is no longer updated, Garmin will not fix it (parts supplier went out of business) but the databases are always current.

Go for any of the x96 line (196,296,396) on the used market. Once you're used to using them, then you can decide what to spend the big money on (or not). You can always resell the older unit.

Datapoint - I have both the Pilot & the Garmin 196 and prefer the Pilot. It fits in the corner of the glarshield and doesn't take up that much room. The 196 (and others) need to be on the yoke (which I don't like) because they take up too much room on the glareshield. (cherokee - might be different on a 172/182 or other high wing)
 
coolgy59 said:
Hi Guys and Gals!
I've been a little outta the loop on flying over the past year, but I think I've settled on a new place to fly and am looking to fly at least monthly. My local flying club rents some nice planes and none are equipped with GPS capabilities; in the past this wouldn't have been much of a problem, but now that I'm flying around the SFRA, I want to ensure that I don't get a nice F-16 escort during a $100 hamburger hop. Also, I think it'll be a nice reference on some longer cross-country flights. At the moment, I'm starting from scratch with no portable GPS and no iPad.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the POA!

When I was in this situation, I was very happy with the basic VFR GPS that Lowrance Airmap 500 provided. Now, you can find them used online, but the databases are sometimes difficult to get updated. I had sold that, and was researching like you have been.

I decided that if I would purchase another GPS, it would be the Aera series by Garmin, and the 510 is a great unit. Aviation and Car usable, it provided good support / updates and would be great for going forward in the IFR training and flying environment.

Getting a used 296, 396, or 496 can be found much cheaper though and they are great units. The button functionality is easy to use and fly with. Search around for used ones and see the features / cost savings verses a new Aera 510. That's some extra money to use towards fuel and rental, meaning, an extra few flights per month :yesnod:

I see no need going after the 696 / 796 Garmin if you are flying occasional XC's and VFR., but that's my opinion.
 
I fly VFR with a Garmin 196 that can still be updated at Garmin's site. It works great and suits my purposes. If you bought on of those, you could use it for a year or two and decide then what you want to upgrade with. I like the fact that the 196 uses AA batteries which can easily be replaced. It can be used in any airplane, even one without an electrical system. But then, I am sometimes considered overly frugal!
 
murphey said:
And yes, Garmin/Jepp continues to update the aviation databases. I have a long discontinued Garmin Pilot III - the software (OS) is no longer updated, Garmin will not fix it (parts supplier went out of business) but the databases are always current.
Click to expand...

I bet they didn't go out of business.

That GPS is old enough that it was pre-RoHS. RoHS destroyed the parts support chain for a lot more than a real ton of working, well-built electronics. Hastened their trip to the landfills, and gave a false boost to the semiconductor sector for a few years.

Similar to what Cash for Clunkers did for old cars that ran just fine, but were sent to the crusher...
 
Again, I emphasize, thanks for the input!

My initial reaction was to pick up a used 396 or 496 unit, but like I had stated, my biggest fear was getting one of those older units and then losing Garmin's update capability within a year or two of purchase. But if that's the case, I'll be perusing ebay later tonight for one of those models.

Seems like the resounding recommendation for the AV8OR is stay away (I've heard positive reviews, but no compassionately positive reviews compared to the overwhelming amount of compassionately negative reviews). Plus I don't support redheaded stepchildren. They have no souls.

As for the iFly, it looked like a really nice GPS (and flight planner?), but it didn't look very user friendly. However, that's based upon the limited number of videos and reviews that I've found on it; any actual user reviews would be a huge help. Thanks!
 
I don't expect Garmin to abandon the x96 line for a while (but I wouldn't, would I, since I own one... If I thought it was about to become orphaned, I'd be selling it to you!).

Bestaluck!
 
denverpilot said:
I bet they didn't go out of business.

That GPS is old enough that it was pre-RoHS. RoHS destroyed the parts support chain for a lot more than a real ton of working, well-built electronics. .
Click to expand...

RoHS - translation please.
 
murphey said:
RoHS - translation please.
Click to expand...
Restriction of Hazardous Substances- a European Union directive. Reduce or eliminate lead (from solder), cadmium, mercury, some poly-bromated compounds and some other stuff from the waste stream (to put it simply). Other parts of the world are picking it up.
 
I figured it was a "Googleable" term. ;)

It's mostly "picked up" already everywhere since manufacturers don't want a RoHS and non-RoHS supply chain.

The most interesting part was that solder with lead in it went away from almost all assembly fabs. Even most parts come "pre-tinned" with non-lead solder nowadays.

Since I work on a lot of older hear that had lead-based solder in it and do repairs, and the two metalurgies don't play nicely together on older circuit boards, I stocked up on my favorite Kestrel-brand sizes of lead-based solder year's ago. Should be enough to last my lifetime.

The older GPS units were likely all assembled with lead-based solder. Thus, keeping separate repair facilities and parts lines flowing, isn't cheap.

In the manufacturing facilities of the telco vendors, it was far cheaper to kill off the products and release an upgraded model redesigned under RoHS rules. I assume that was even faster in the fast-paced consumer electronics world.

My former employer hadn't built anything non-RoHS in years when I left earlier this year, and repairs to non-RoHS devices were outsourced to specialty shops willing to deal with the costs and pass them back to us as part of the repair price.

In "board swaps" we could substitute RoHS boards in, no problem. We had to be careful where in the world we could ship non-RoHS refurbished boards, though. The RMA system would squawk if only RoHS refutes were in the warehouses on any shipments to RoHS countries. Many delayed repairs/RMAs at first. Lots of warehouse panic moments. ;)

It's mostly shook out now. A lot of the product line cancellations by international companies a few years ago was caused by this behind the scenes.
 
coolgy59 said:
As for the iFly, it looked like a really nice GPS (and flight planner?), but it didn't look very user friendly. However, that's based upon the limited number of videos and reviews that I've found on it; any actual user reviews would be a huge help. Thanks!
Click to expand...
As I mentioned in my post, I've used my iFly for about a year, and I'm very happy with it. I think there are very few iFly users who would say "steer clear of the iFly"...most owners seem to be very pleased.

Skim the posts at the Adventure Pilot forums (company that makes the iFly) and see how many "thanks for making a great product" comments there are.

Here are a couple of discussion threads I found that might be helpful for you (though some comments are a little dated):

PoA comments on iFly
VAF iFly vs. iPad
VAF Garmin 396 vs iFly
 
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