ForeFlight Question - Bearing vs. Course

nj-pilot

nj-pilot

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Hello- I hope I don't get too beat up for asking, but referring to the instruments you can show at bottom of screen in ForeFlight (see attached), what is the difference between "Bearing Next" and "Course Next" ? If it's merely wind adjustment, then I wonder why they keep showing up identically for me, even in ~20 knot wind conditions (from northwest of my position) most of flight. Appreciate any guidance anyone might have on this. Many thanksunnamed.png
 
No, if on course bearing and course are same. Heading is different, due to wind.


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@gsengle thank you - can you please explain what the difference between these are? i somehow feel like this is a dumb question, but i can't find the answer in the foreflight manual. appreciate the help. thanks
 
It doesn't!


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nj-pilot said:
Hello- I hope I don't get too beat up for asking, but referring to the instruments you can show at bottom of screen in ForeFlight (see attached), what is the difference between "Bearing Next" and "Course Next" ? If it's merely wind adjustment, then I wonder why they keep showing up identically for me, even in ~20 knot wind conditions (from northwest of my position) most of flight. Appreciate any guidance anyone might have on this. Many thanksView attachment 50082
Click to expand...

Can be different from one GPS to another so this is an educated guess. Course is the direction from the previous waypoint to the next waypoint. Bearing is the direction from the airplane to the next waypoint.
 
Pilot/Controller Glossary:

BEARING- The horizontal direction to or from any point, usually measured
clockwise from true north, magnetic north, or some other reference point
through 360 degrees.

COURSE-
a. The intended direction of flight in the horizontal plane measured in
degrees from north.

b. The ILS localizer signal pattern usually specified as the front course
or the back course.

c. The intended track along a straight, curved, or segmented MLS path.

TRACK- The actual flight path of an aircraft over the surface of the earth.

or

TRACK [ICAO]- The projection on the earth's surface of the path of an
aircraft, the direction of which path at any point is usually expressed in
degrees from North (True, Magnetic, or Grid).

Note the subtle difference between COURSE and TRACK -- COURSE is the
"intended direction of flight"; TRACK is the "actual flight path"

HEADING is not defined in the P/CG, but is the direction that the nose of
the aircraft is pointing -- and may be expressed as TRUE or MAGNETIC.





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I played around with that on ForeFlight. Bearing Next is the course you would have to fly to go direct to the next waypoint from where you are now. Course Next is the course you would have to fly if you were on the selected course between the last waypoint and the next waypoint. If your on the pink line they're going to be the same. Get off the the pink line and they're going to be different.
 
Thank you all - this is very clear now. One last question (bonus round) - does ForeFlight provide anything in that instrument bar which would be equivalent to a GPS' "DTK" (Desired Track)? Many thanks
 
luvflyin said:
I played around with that on ForeFlight. Bearing Next is the course you would have to fly to go direct to the next waypoint from where you are now. Course Next is the course you would have to fly if you were on the selected course between the last waypoint and the next waypoint. If your on the pink line they're going to be the same. Get off the the pink line and they're going to be different.
Click to expand...
NEGATIVE. They are only the same for very short distances or north-south courses (or a couple of other degenerate cases). Your bearing varies continuously otherwise. Of course if your legs are short, you're not going to notice in when we're talking about full degrees.
 
"Course Next" should be equivalent to Desired Track. In the example you showed above your course next is 24 degrees while your track is 22 degrees. Notice that the HSI shows you slightly left of course.
 
For me the best way to understand it is visually:

4words.gif

The above image is from the following web page: http://newlangsyne.com/articles/xcplan/index.htm
Go to the section entitled Four Words

The words are course, track, heading, and bearing. If there is no wind and the pilot flies his line perfectly, they all coincide. If there is any wind, the pilot must correct for it, usually imperfectly at first. So the illustration shows a plane whose pilot is trying to compensate for the wind, but is blown off course a bit. The angles are grossly exaggerated to make the explanation clearer. Our pilot is trying to fly a straight line from airport ABC to another airport, XYZ.

  • course (crs) – the direction from ABC to XYZ. In the next section, you will mark a red line on the chart to indicate the course for your trip. GPS units commonly call this parameter desired track (dtk).
  • heading (hdg) – the direction where the airplane's nose is pointed. This is the direction the pilot reads from his compass.
  • track (trk) – the airplane's path over the ground. If the heading was chosen perfectly, this line coincides with the course.
  • bearing (brg) – the compass direction from the airplane to the target waypoint (XYZ). The term relative bearing is used, especially in older forms of radio navigation. This is the difference between the bearing to station and the airplane's heading, 20° in this case. From the pilot's perspective, the waypoint is twenty degrees to the right of his nose.
Except for heading, these words are all used in GPS units. Those units are much easier to use well if you understand the language.​
 
nj-pilot said:
@gsengle thank you - can you please explain what the difference between these are? i somehow feel like this is a dumb question, but i can't find the answer in the foreflight manual. appreciate the help. thanks
Click to expand...

And once again the soapbox is needed.

ForeFlight is a tool. It's nice and gadget like and everyone loves the **** out of it. But, it doesn't know that YOU don't know the differences between TRK, CRS, and HDG. It also doesn't know that you might not know the difference between Baro-Alt and GPS-Alt.

Frankly, the biggest problem with ForeFlight is always going to be the knowledge of the user.

Put it in your cabinet. Go fly and learn what all these things are. Then re-insert it into your flying.

It's a tool with much information to share with you. But... if you're actually asking SGOTI to 'splain it to you, you're not ready for it.
 
luvflyin said:
I played around with that on ForeFlight. Bearing Next is the course you would have to fly to go direct to the next waypoint from where you are now. Course Next is the course you would have to fly if you were on the selected course between the last waypoint and the next waypoint. If your on the pink line they're going to be the same. Get off the the pink line and they're going to be different.
Click to expand...

Good answers, now get out and fly with it.

Practice with what you are going to use. If you want of fly with paper maps, use paper maps. If you use ForeFlight use Foreflight, If you use a GTN-750, use and practice with the GTN-750. You will never really feel comfortable with it, unless you use it.

You will pick it up very quickly now because you will see it "live" and it will make more sense.

Remember, keep your eyes looking outside and do not spend much time looking inside.
 
Why does Foreflight leave out the leading zero on courses? They ought to always be 3 digits.
 
Ravioli said:
And once again the soapbox is needed.Frankly, the biggest problem with ForeFlight is always going to be the knowledge of the user. Put it in your cabinet. Go fly and learn what all these things are. Then re-insert it into your flying.
Click to expand...
I think buried underneath the unfortunate tone of your message is a really great point about dependency on technology vs. fundamental understanding. However, a few points for your consideration-
1) I am always learning, and I do not profess to know it all and never will
2) In my situation, aviation is a hobby, it is not my day job, so I only get so much time to learn and practice
3) I noticed that several others had similar confusion / questions as I did, so maybe my questions are not invalid
4) As a certificated private pilot with current instrument rating, I hope you appreciate that I obviously learned these points during my training years ago, but it's a completely fair and reasonable point that we forget things we do not practice, and frankly in my day-to-day flying (yes - using modern technology including glass cockpit and foreflight), knowing the difference between course, bearing, and heading just hasn't come up in a very long time.
5) Similarly, I'm not sure I would know how to use the analog E6-B right off the bat - would take me a while to play with it before I remember - and oh my god, I might actually ask someone for help if it came up.
6) If all of my avionics failed, how would I possibly navigate to an airfield and safely land if I didn't know which word describes the heading I fly to correct for wind at the nearest airfield - successfully. I always practice system failures (including ipad) during my flights.

So, I guess I would ask that you please remember that we are all trained (and training) pilots, but when legitimate and reasonable questions come up, please do not jump to the conclusion that we are all idiots who don't know what we're doing. An idiot is someone who won't ask for help and admit he lacks knowledge when he's unsure of something.
 
Ravioli said:
And once again the soapbox is needed.

ForeFlight is a tool. It's nice and gadget like and everyone loves the **** out of it. But, it doesn't know that YOU don't know the differences between TRK, CRS, and HDG. It also doesn't know that you might not know the difference between Baro-Alt and GPS-Alt.

Frankly, the biggest problem with ForeFlight is always going to be the knowledge of the user.

Put it in your cabinet. Go fly and learn what all these things are. Then re-insert it into your flying.

It's a tool with much information to share with you. But... if you're actually asking SGOTI to 'splain it to you, you're not ready for it.
Click to expand...
I actually can't tell what the soapbox is. I'm not being snide or sarcastic.

If the point is that one needs to have basic knowledge of how any tool works before one uses it, yeah, I agree. Sticking a pen in your mouth instead of writing with it is pretty silly.

If it's that one needs to have an expert knowledge level of knowledge of a tool before getting value from its use, I'd guess most of us violate your rule on a daily basis when we drive out cars.
 
flyingron said:
NEGATIVE. They are only the same for very short distances or north-south courses (or a couple of other degenerate cases). Your bearing varies continuously otherwise. Of course if your legs are short, you're not going to notice in when we're talking about full degrees.
Click to expand...

?? Your bearing to a waypoint doesn't change if you are tracking directly to it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I actually can't tell what the soapbox is. I'm not being snide or sarcastic.
Click to expand...

<-- that guy's usual soapbox about learning to fly first, getting a certificate, and then adding tablets, go-pros, blulink adapters and all them gadgets.

Maybe i'm being a bit scrooge-like today, but if you don't know what Foreflight is telling you, you ought not be using ForeFlight.
 
Ravioli said:
Maybe i'm being a bit scrooge-like today, but if you don't know what Foreflight is telling you, you ought not be using ForeFlight.
Click to expand...
Respectfully, if I don't know what ForeFlight is telling me, then I will ask someone so that I can learn what ForeFlight is telling me - and thus become a better pilot with modern tools.
 
Better head back to the sim and the gaming and log some more quality hours.
 
nj-pilot said:
Respectfully, if I don't know what ForeFlight is telling me, then I will ask someone so that I can learn what ForeFlight is telling me - and thus become a better pilot with modern tools.
Click to expand...

Some Other Guy On The Internet said that the question was pretty basic PPL knowledge and not a ForeFlight usage question. It was #4 in this thread. I think I agree with him.

Mostly unrelated: I introduced something new to my cockpit. Portable Oxygen. I asked around about it and The Guys On The Internet said 'just go fly.' I immediately scheduled my CFI to go along for the first couple times. Was an interesting ride having extra tubes on my neck and face, and the oximeter on my right index finger made for some extra effort playing with the navigator and changing freqs. Glad I wasn't the only pilot.

Anyway, enjoy the season and fly safely and often.
 
camel said:
For me the best way to understand it is visually:

4words-gif.50084
Click to expand...

Perfect!

One picture is worth 1,000 posts!
 
nj-pilot said:
Respectfully, if I don't know what ForeFlight is telling me, then I will ask someone so that I can learn what ForeFlight is telling me - and thus become a better pilot with modern tools.
Click to expand...

The beatings will continue until morale is improved. Hang in there.
 
nj-pilot said:
Thank you all - this is very clear now. One last question (bonus round) - does ForeFlight provide anything in that instrument bar which would be equivalent to a GPS' "DTK" (Desired Track)? Many thanks
Click to expand...

Yeah. Course Next would be the Desired Track if are on the Active Leg (pink line.) Bearing Next would be the Desired Track from where you are now. I don't think there is anything that will tell you a Desired Track to get back over and intercept the active leg. There is Cross Track Error that will tell you how many miles off to the side of the Active Leg you are.
 
Can someone help me?
I can get the ADS-B to work with Foreflight combined with the Stratus 2S.
The following works great with Foreflight and is up to date:
  • Aviation Routine Weather Reports (METARs)
  • Non-Routine Aviation Weather Reports (SPECIs)
  • Terminal Area Forecasts (TAFs) and their amendments
  • NEXRAD (regional and CONUS) precipitation maps
  • Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) Distant and Flight Data Center
  • Airmen's Meteorological Conditions (AIRMET)
  • Significant Meteorological Conditions (SIGMET) and Convective SIGMET
  • Status of Special Use Airspace (SUA)
  • Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs)
  • Winds and Temperatures Aloft
  • Pilot Reports (PIREPS)
I can even see some traffic on Foreflight that have the ADBS-B “out” .

But I can not see any of the potential traffic on my paper sectional nor get any of the above information as current, as I do with Foreflight. (Which I find helpful to decrease collision risk and increase situational awareness).


My real question is how long do you think it will be after 2020 before the FAA mandates that All aircraft that fly in Class A, B, and C airspace or Class E airspace at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface be required to have ADS-B “In” with some sort of in-cockpit display (ForeFlight or Garmin).

I think it will be less that 5 years.
 
You fly the heading, the aircraft flies the bearing. The course is where you wanted to go if everything was perfect.
 
ahypnoz said:
My real question is how long do you think it will be after 2020 before the FAA mandates that All aircraft that fly in Class A, B, and C airspace or Class E airspace at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface be required to have ADS-B “In” with some sort of in-cockpit display (ForeFlight or Garmin).

I think it will be less that 5 years.
Click to expand...

I'll take your bet. Even money - 1AMU. Heck, I'll give you till 12/31/2030.

And if any such requirement existed ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot will disappear.

You think iOS and Android devices will EVER be TSO'd? C'mon.
 
luvflyin said:
?? Your bearing to a waypoint doesn't change if you are tracking directly to it.
Click to expand...
Bullhocky. Here's a simple degenerate case. Pick two places on the same degree latitude in the northern hemisphere on 180 degree separation of longitude. You'll fly over the pole. Your bearing will be NORTH for the first half of the flight and SOUTH for the second half of the flight. Except on certain other degenerate courses (two points due north/south of each other or points on the equator), the bearing MUST vary continuously on a straight line. While the two points aren't changing their relationship to each other, the relationship WITH RESPECT TO NORTH (which is what bearing is) does change.
 
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flyingron said:
Bullhocky. Here's a simple degenerate case. Pick two places on the same degree latitude in the northern hemisphere on 180 degree separation of longitude. You'll fly over the pole. Your bearing will be NORTH for the first half of the flight and SOUTH for the second half of the flight. Except on certain other degenerate courses (two points due north/south of each other or points on the equator), the bearing MUST vary continuously on a straight line. While the two points aren't changing their relationship to each other, the relationship WITH RESPECT TO NORTH (which is what bearing is) does change.
Click to expand...

Do you have another example that doesn't involve flying over the North Pole? ... or South Pole?
 
Almost any great circle route... not noticeable on shorter hops, very noticeable on long flights.


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Here when you fly direct JFK to LAX you start out at around 285deg, and end up at the end of the flight at 240.

c7439ffe886bbc3ae1fb5f5911c16104.png


68dc9fde3c429e1183b7ec0af7d180dc.png



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register@teamandras.com said:
Do you have another example that doesn't involve flying over the North Pole? ... or South Pole?
Click to expand...
Yes, anything you're not taking a course directly to the poles. Get your paper sectional out. Find a latitude line. Pick a point on the left side on the left side of the chart on that line. Draw a course line to a point on that latitude line on the right side of the chart. Note that line is straight (and represents close enough to a straight course over the earth). Note that the latitude line curves south away from the line you drew. Get your plotter out and check the bearing along the course as it crosses the longitude lines. You'll see it changes a few degrees to the north as you head east until you get to the mid point and then it turns towards the south.

It's the basic truth of the way you are navigating on straight lines. While you are always heading towards the destination. Bearing is degrees from the station as measured from north. The relative position of north is changing as you go along.
 
A lesson on great circles doesn't do anything at all to help OP answer his question.
 
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