Following Another Plane

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rt4388

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rt4388
So I'm following someone tomorrow night for the first time. It will be about a 45 minute flight. Obviously when I say following, I'm not just hopping in the plane and taking off behind them. I'm going to review and plan just like any other flight. Any tips for following someone though? Thanks guys!
 
rt4388 said:
So I'm following someone tomorrow night for the first time. It will be about a 45 minute flight. Obviously when I say following, I'm not just hopping in the plane and taking off behind them. I'm going to review and plan just like any other flight. Any tips for following someone though? Thanks guys!
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offset to the right a 100 yards or more...in daylight it's interesting when the lead slows or speeds up...at night, well ya wanna few more clues to judge distance...
 
rt4388 said:
So I'm following someone tomorrow night for the first time. It will be about a 45 minute flight. Obviously when I say following, I'm not just hopping in the plane and taking off behind them. I'm going to review and plan just like any other flight. Any tips for following someone though? Thanks guys!
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How closely?
Will you have another person on board?
Do you have on board traffic alert that you need to turn off?

It can be a lot of fun but stay on your A game and know what your plan is in the event that you lose site of the other plane.

Be talking to him/her.

https://youtu.be/RegWp5rTZGk?t=4m40s

I have done this a few times and it is awesome every time. But if you are following, there is no time to be looking inside the plane to mess with stuff.
 
Don't fixate so much on the other plane that you lose overall perception of your surroundings (terrain, obstacles, landmarks)

If you have dual radios - set up a frequency to talk to them
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
How closely?
Will you have another person on board?
Do you have on board traffic alert that you need to turn off?

It can be a lot of fun but stay on your A game and know what your plan is in the event that you lose site of the other plane.

Be talking to him/her.

https://youtu.be/RegWp5rTZGk?t=4m40s

I have done this a few times and it is awesome every time. But if you are following, there is no time to be looking inside the plane to mess with stuff.
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How closely is really a question I was hoping y'all could answer lol. It will be at night and I'm a pretty new pilot. He's fairly experienced, so I'm sure he'll have some ideas when we brief tomorrow. When following him, it will be just me on board. And no on board traffic advisories.
I was planning on just leaving plenty of distance, but that video is making me want to follow close enough to get a good view.
 
You're out of AHN, right? I'm over there frequently for work. If you would like for someone who has more experience to tag along for safety, send me a PM. I'll be more than happy to ride, if I'm available.

I have to bring an airplane to NJ tomorrow, but I'll be there on Friday.
 
rt4388 said:
How closely is really a question I was hoping y'all could answer lol. It will be at night and I'm a pretty new pilot. He's fairly experienced, so I'm sure he'll have some ideas when we brief tomorrow. When following him, it will be just me on board. And no on board traffic advisories.
I was planning on just leaving plenty of distance, but that video is making me want to follow close enough to get a good view.
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What's wrong with five miles in trail? No need to get up his grill.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
You're out of AHN, right? I'm over there frequently for work. If you would like for someone who has more experience to tag along for safety, send me a PM. I'll be more than happy to ride, if I'm available.

I have to bring an airplane to NJ tomorrow, but I'll be there on Friday.
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^ THIS!!!!

If you can bring someone along, the experience is going to be better for you. I would seriously consider taking this offer. CRM gets a bit more important when there is another chunk of metal in the air next to you.

The flight in the video I linked to would have been 10X more stressful if KenJr wasn't with me.
 
Have done it many times, if you are going to do it much more than an hour it can be exhausting for the one responsible for maintaining visual.
Best plan is the one watching (you can't hardly both watch each other) to be slightly behind and below. Right behind, and he is hard to see, plus if he slows down...
If he is above, you will see him against the sky easier (vs against the ground).
Plus, having the vertical separation really helps minimize a problem.

If you are not going to be in visual contact, just send the fastest one first (and he stays at a lower altitude than the second plane throughout the cruise portion). This separates you vertically and maximizes your horizontal distance.

You said at night so I would not try to maintain visual at all; I would not be comfortable in such close quarters at night.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Have done it many times, if you are going to do it much more than an hour it can be exhausting for the one responsible for maintaining visual.
Best plan is the one watching (you can't hardly both watch each other) to be slightly behind and below. Right behind, and he is hard to see, plus if he slows down...
If he is above, you will see him against the sky easier (vs against the ground).
Plus, having the vertical separation really helps minimize a problem.

If you are not going to be in visual contact, just send the fastest one first (and he stays at a lower altitude than the second plane throughout the cruise portion). This separates you vertically and maximizes your horizontal distance.

You said at night so I would not try to maintain visual at all; I would not be comfortable in such close quarters at night.
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Lotsa good points. Offset vertically and horizontally. Undesirable things can happen really fast.
 
also, both use the same device to give your dist to xyz, then if you lose track you can talk, comparing your dist to xyz. (But use the same device and the same fix ie both dme to the same vor. Don't have one on the ipad measuring to the airport and the other using dme to the vor).

Have a plan too; (it really should be briefed beforehand). What are we going to do if a) b) c) etc.
 
Old Fart said:
Don't fixate so much on the other plane that you lose overall perception of your surroundings (terrain, obstacles, landmarks)
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If you're flying wing, ALL you should be focusing on is the lead aircraft. Whatever lead does, you mirror. It's almost as if you're one unit. Taking your eyes off of lead can result in losing visual contact or possibly a mid-air collision.

rt4388 said:
How closely is really a question I was hoping y'all could answer lol. It will be at night and I'm a pretty new pilot. He's fairly experienced, so I'm sure he'll have some ideas when we brief tomorrow. When following him, it will be just me on board. And no on board traffic advisories.
I was planning on just leaving plenty of distance, but that video is making me want to follow close enough to get a good view.
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If you've never flown formation before, I would not recommend your first formation flight be at night, alone. Find someone with experience, such as Cpt_Kirk, and let them show you the ropes and act as a safety pilot.

Let'sgoflying! said:
Have done it many times, if you are going to do it much more than an hour it can be exhausting for the one responsible for maintaining visual.
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It's exhausting during the daytime, it's probably more significant at night.

Some other things to consider:

What types of planes are being flown? You need to ensure that cruise speeds are briefed ahead of time. You wouldn't want a 172 flying at normal cruise as lead with a Mooney trying to fly at normal cruise as wing.

As others have suggested, have a frequency you can talk on, and a backup frequency. If you're within a mile or so of each other, you should get flight following and identify as a flight of two and wing should not squawk on the transponder. At night, depth perception is already reduced so attempting to fly in formation could lead to other issues.

Formation flying is a lot of fun but it must be done safely. If you've never done it, do it a few times during the day to get a feel for it. I recommend either not flying in formation or taking Cpt_Kirk up on his offer.
 
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LevelWing said:
If you've never flown formation before, I would not recommend your first formation flight be at night, alone. Find someone with experience, such as Cpt_Kirk, and let them show you the ropes and act as a safety pilot.

Formation flying is a lot of fun but it must be done safely. If you've never done it, do it a few times during the day to get a feel for it. I recommend either not flying in formation or taking Cpt_Kirk up on his offer.
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I've only done it informally, all done well but not recommended. The informal, casual part that is.

No matter what separation is planned, 'following at night' is dangerous compared to doing it alone. Don't do your first one at night, period (there, I said it, but it's up to you.)

If you are going to talk to ATC during this flight, identify yourselves as a flight of 2, even if the separation is big.

Sounds like a fun and interesting experience but seriously, reconsider doing it at night for a first experience. Things can be easy at night but they can also be tricky as you start flying formation with the moon's reflection off a lake....
 
Normally, I laugh at people that claim you need immense training to do formation flight.

This time, though, being green and doing it at night? I wouldn't dream of completing this flight. Just trail by a mile or so and you'll be much better off and safe.
 
Only times I've done it was during the day, we kept a couple miles apart. It wasn't
"formation" as much as "I'll keep you in visual contact". I stayed behind, and offset to one side, and we kept slightly different altitudes. We were also on the same freq, so we stayed in touch that way, too. Thinking back on it, one time was more of a parallel track with several miles spacing - we could both see each other that way.
 
How about let the less experienced pilot take the lead?
 
I agree that your lack of experience is a huge and strong link in the accident chain.

If you are determined to make this a formation flight: Why not reverse the roles? You fly the lead and let the more experienced pilot keep station on you?

-Skip
 
You may want to do this flight during the daytime if it's your first time doing formation.
 
SkyHog said:
Normally, I laugh at people that claim you need immense training to do formation flight.
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To fly a couple Cessnas 20 feet apart isn't cosmic. But to tuck into a true fingertip position and be comfortable, learn and use formation hand signals properly, and use military style formation radio etiquette, that all takes a bit of time to master.

For the OP. I wouldn't worry about getting close for a "good view" it is night so you aren't gonna see much anyways. FAA says a standard formation is within 1 mile and 100 feet vertically so if you are within a mile you guys are technically a formation. Normally the lead aircraft is responsible for navigating, communicating, and clearing for the whole formation, but since you aren't gonna be right up on him, you should be able to do most of your own visual clearing. Gets harder to clear for a formation when they are in a route position(which is basically an enroute position for cross country flying). I could go on and on about formation but to keep it simple. Stay far enough away since it is your first time, you are new, and it's at night. Have a radio frequency in mind that you guys can talk on and a back-up plan if one of you gets lost in a frequency change.
Skip Miller said:
If you are determined to make this a formation flight: Why not reverse the roles? You fly the lead and let the more experienced pilot keep station on you?

-Skip
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I recommend this.
 
What Gucci said. If you've never flown formation, at night isn't the time to try. Especially with no NVGs or formation lights on the lead aircraft.

First time out, just "follow" at least a mile back and operate as two distinct flights. It'll be less stressful and you'll be able to concentrate your scan on other things such as engine instruments and other traffic.
 
What is the purpose of this flight? Are you both just going to the same airport with two planes, or are you trying to get pretty pictures/videos of each other flying? If it's the former, I would just put 2-3 miles between each other. Your arrivals will be minutes apart. Nobody will be left waiting for the other.

If it's the later, go get training for formation flight. Lots of people have died thinking it is simple. Particularly when there is photography involved. It can be dangerous even for professionals with experience. Not to long ago here in the Bay Area, we had a Grumman Bearcat race plane collide with Cessna 210 when they were flying formation and trying to get pretty pictures during magic hour. The Bearcat returned to base with damage, the 210 went to the bottom of San Pablo Bay.
 
If doing formation flight for the first time, and doing it at night, you should probably also do it in IMC also.
 
Thanks for all the responses! CPT Kirk--I appreciate the offer but unfortunately it's most convenient if we do the flight tomorrow night. After hearing yalls input, I'm just going to let him take off, give him some time, and then follow behind. It won't be much of a formation flight--just me following a mile or even a few behind. That way there isn't much of a threat. And, obviously, we'll both pick up flight following. In terms of the separate communication, do we just choose a random frequency that doesn't look like it's in use around us?
 
rt4388 said:
Thanks for all the responses! CPT Kirk--I appreciate the offer but unfortunately it's most convenient if we do the flight tomorrow night. After hearing yalls input, I'm just going to let him take off, give him some time, and then follow behind. It won't be much of a formation flight--just me following a mile or even a few behind. That way there isn't much of a threat. And, obviously, we'll both pick up flight following. In terms of the separate communication, do we just choose a random frequency that doesn't look like it's in use around us?
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Pretty sure 122.75 is air-to-air. (I think there is another one, too. It should be in the AIM someplace)

A lot of people use 123.45 even though you are not supposed to.

(edit: looks like 122.75 is it, AIM 4-1-11)
 
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Matthew said:
Pretty sure 122.75 is air-to-air. (I think there is another one, too. It should be in the AIM someplace)

A lot of people use 123.45 even though you are not supposed to.
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After looking at the AIM, that looks right to me!
 
As has been said, it's a matter of how close. Formation flying, tight and done properly, is low risk; but requires extra education beyond standard. Flying in close proximity (within 1/4 mile) has risks added especially when solo. If you have to take eyes off each other, which you both do to see and avoid unless you are tight formation, you run the risk of losing each other in close proximity, and that is where things start to get sketchy especially when you add third party traffic and people start maneuvering. Adding a second person to assign traffic spotting while you maintain visual on lead reduces your risk greatly.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
And hot coffee came out my nose!
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
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I got a pretty good chuckle too. But just to clarify: the post started as just following--not really formation flying. Then I saw the video that was posted and said, "Hmmmm... Doesn't look that hard to do." But I quickly realized that "formation flying" would be a bad idea.
 
rt4388 said:
I got a pretty good chuckle too. But just to clarify: the post started as just following--not really formation flying. Then I saw the video that was posted and said, "Hmmmm... Doesn't look that hard to do." But I quickly realized that "formation flying" would be a bad idea.
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If you're just following, then maintain a few miles separation and pick up flight following and you should be fine. You'll arrive a few minutes apart with no issues. Enjoy the flight.

MikeELP said:
But...but...but...

WWRS??

:D
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"What Would Ron Say"? :D
 
He would have demanded no fewer than 300 hour to be flown with the AYA formation flying class before attempting this on your own. And even then, with over 970 years of flight experience he would not recommend it.
 
rt4388 said:
Thanks for all the responses! CPT Kirk--I appreciate the offer but unfortunately it's most convenient if we do the flight tomorrow night. After hearing yalls input, I'm just going to let him take off, give him some time, and then follow behind. It won't be much of a formation flight--just me following a mile or even a few behind. That way there isn't much of a threat. And, obviously, we'll both pick up flight following. In terms of the separate communication, do we just choose a random frequency that doesn't look like it's in use around us?
Click to expand...

There is no such thing. The FCC assigns frequencies, and every assignment has a purpose. 122.75 is assigned to air-to-air, and that is what you use. DO NOT USE 123.45...it is assigned to manufacturers (Boeing in my area) and some transoceanic flights.

Bob Gardner
 
Matthew said:
That really should be a sticky.
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If by "a sticky" you mean covered in **** and thrown in the trash, I agree.

Formation flying is not dangerous. Hitting other planes while formation flying is.

The secret: don't hit the other plane. It is really quite simple.
 
SkyHog said:
If by "a sticky" you mean covered in **** and thrown in the trash, I agree.

Formation flying is not dangerous. Hitting other planes while formation flying is.

The secret: don't hit the other plane. It is really quite simple.
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There's a lot more to formation flying than just "don't hit the other plane". While I don't think it's necessary to go to a school and pay for "formal" training, there is a certain amount of knowledge and training one should have before just going up and flying in formation. Can you do it? Sure. Part of it comes down to your overall piloting experience level. Learning from someone who has done formation flights before is the best way.
 
LevelWing said:
There's a lot more to formation flying than just "don't hit the other plane". While I don't think it's necessary to go to a school and pay for "formal" training, there is a certain amount of knowledge and training one should have before just going up and flying in formation. Can you do it? Sure. Part of it comes down to your overall piloting experience level. Learning from someone who has done formation flights before is the best way.
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Sorry, but that is bullhockey.

Formation flight is easy: one guy leads, the other flies slightly below (a few feet) and behind the lead. Watch the lead and prepare to break down and away if something goes wrong.

Easy. Easy easy easy easy easy.

Its thinking like that "Its hard!" that keeps getting a pilot certificate from being made more realistically simple to do. Flying is not hard. Nothing about flying is hard. It is EXACTLY like driving a car, except you have one more axis at your disposal to use.

Can you drive on an interstate with traffic a few feet away? What if something unexpected occurs - can you avoid an accident?

If so, you can certainly operate an airplane in a similar situation with even more outs at your disposal (it is unlikely that you'll have airplanes all around you, boxing you in if something goes wrong like you would on an interstate).

Whenever I heard this argument, it reminds me of the first day of ground school, where the instructor had to explain that the airplane rolls left by turning the yoke to the left. Come on now, really - is that necessary?
 
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