Flying VFR into a class Charlie Int'l Airport

bisctboy

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I haven't flown into a tower controlled airport in awhile and wanted to "knock the rust off". I'm sure there are several low time VFR pilots like myself that are a bit apprehensive about doing this...don't be! I filmed my interactions with ATC during Approach, Tower hand off, and Departure. I obviously have a long ways to go to get "fluent" again in ATC but I thought this video might nudge some apprehensive pilots into accomplishing this...

 
You did just fine! Great job!
 
Good job and good video, well done. Related story: I fly out of a Delta airport (RBD) under a busy Bravo (DFW), so I guess I stay "current" with rapid fire and busy ATC. I usually attend the Reklaw fly-in every year at 7TA7. This is a grass strip, kinda of in the middle of nowhere. This fly-in attracts a lot of planes every year, but it can be very hectic getting in/out of the place. Think wild west flying. There are typically numerous aircraft descending into or climbing away from the event at any given given moment of the three days of fly-in and no ATC. But..I can always "spot" the guys/gals that aren't used to being task saturated and surrounded just by their radio work.
 
Would've checked in with "Delta" with approach. If I were on approach I never would've had you ident when just issuing the squawk would've reduced one transmission. I usually use "closed traffic" vs "inbound touch and gos." In your case the controller might not have known you were staying in the pattern. " (ID) Cleared touch and go rwy 31, right closed traffic approved" or just after departing "(ID) right closed traffic approved" would have been nice to hear on Local's side before you were already off the dept end. The whole approach departure thing isn't a big deal. As you heard, he called himself approach anyway even after you called him departure.

Overall good vid!
 
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That was a good video. Showing that things work out and theres no need to get tensed up over things. Just communicate and say oops when its time to say oops and move on. And if you arent sure if you missed a transmission, speak up. The "was that for N###" is good. On the Approach/Departure thing there really is no need to even give that a second thought. Get the frequency right and call them what they are calling themselves. Dedicated departures sectors are more of the exception rather then rule. Don't be surprised if you are talking to Approach and you hear them calling themselves Departures to other aircraft. And don't be surpised if you are told to contact Approach and when you check in they call themselves Departures or vice versa.
 
Not bad. You're doing fine.

I'll put on my "heck, I've got to teach this stuff anyway for my CFI oral hat" for a moment here and offer some pointers, but in no way was anything you did bad. Communications was effective and everyone understood everyone else, that's key above all. Even phraseology, if needed -- just say what you'd say in a conversation if the controller was sitting right there next to you. Good.

The post-flight critique:

- When checking in, try to have the ATIS copied ahead of time and get into the habit of offering up that you have it. This is, of course, recommended in the AIM. With a flight that short, you'd probably plan to copy it nearly as soon as you exited the departure airport's airspace. Tips for that which will help as you head on toward higher ratings, might as well pre-select the landing airport ATIS in the number two comm (if working with two) as the flip flop right after the departure airport AWOS or whatever you're getting there. (Typically I save Comm one for talking on, CTAF with the next approach or whatever set in the flip flop before even leaving the ground at the departure airport -- the more stuff you can pre-select in a planned pattern, the less cranking of dials and looking inside later on).

- Responses can and will be a little faster as you get better at it, but in that particular airspace and pace, it worked out fine. More on that later.

- Foreflight tip: Always stick the landing airport in the active waypoint and turn on the bottom data bar. There's two very useful things you can customize into that bar as two of the four items that I use on almost every flight:

1. Distance Next - This is awesome for that initial call up as long as your "next" is the airport. This one would have helped you in the confusion about the distance to the airport and the outer ring.

2. Descent to Dest - This one isn't directly related to your flight but I like to point it out as a relatively new option in the info bar in Foreflight. Many people don't know they added it. Another very useful gadget and not turned on by default. Pick something in the bar that you can dump, like GPS Altitude (who cares, VFR?) and replace it. This little bugger can be a good memory jogger if you're feeling overloaded or don't do time-to-descend math well in your head. It'll give you a big hint if this arrival is going to have to be a "slam dunk" to get down from here, and as you do more flying with passengers, they really really like it better if you keep the descent rate something reasonable. Shoot for 500 fpm or less in a unpressurized airplane. If that box says it'll take 1000 fpm, your arrival planning has gone wrong. Think about your ears and your passenger's ears popping on the way in, and maybe ask for a 360 and a descent just to mellow it out a bit.

Pro tip: Remember if it says 500 fpm right now, if you only push the nose down and speed up, the faster geoundspeed will mean the rate of descent will climb to hit the same point on the ground. You'll either have to slow down or you'll have to start down no later than when that box says 400 fpm in most light aircraft, depending on how "slick" they are.

- There's a safety thing that happened, did you catch it? When the controller cleared you for the touch and go on Runway 31, you responded with "Cleared touch and go, Cherokee 80A." With even the big kids in airliners landing on the wrong runway sometimes, what is missing? Ah-ha! We need to always include the runway during readback of clearances! And honestly I think the controller cut you a little break there and even hung himself out a little bit, because he's also required to *hear* you accept that clearance with a runway number. One way to help remember these things is to put yourself in the controller's shoes... what does (s)he need to hear. I'm surprised he didn't say, "Cherokee 80A, confirm Runway 31, cleared touch and go..." with the ambiguous reply.

- I would suggest, even though you're technically legal below 3000' AGL to choose whatever altitude that you like, that your choice of 3000' MSL is a little busted in that it's not a VFR cruising altitude. I only peeked quickly at your local chart, but 3500' would be better. 1500' did look a little low for cruising there, and 2500' while legal, would have probably been best used on the way in westbound, and 3500' eastbound but you'd be legal at 2500' going back home. Legal and smart aren't always the same, so I'll leave the cruising altitude comment as one for you to ponder in your free time. There's no "wrong" answer VFR but there are a lot of "better" answers than an IFR altitude.

- Don't know what instrumentation your panel has, but I like to see folks make the panel primary when possible and the iPad secondary. Your airport doesn't appear to have a VOR/DME centered on the field and I don't know if you have a GPS on board, but if you can get that distance to airport info from certified avionics on the panel your eyeballs and attention are a lot easier to pop back to looking outside VFR if you don't have to look down at your lap and app. But you did a good job diverting your attention between outside and inside and your eyeballs were mostly outside overall, so it's another "technique" thing. Good stuff.

Super job on a couple of things:

- I loved that you wrote down nearly every item the controller assigned. As you get better you can fall into the trap of not writing frequencies, altitudes, and headings -- although sometimes when busy single-pilot, you may have tools you can use like flip-flop radios, bugs on the altimeter, and/or a bug on the DG you can set immediately to whatever they said. It's a question of technique but nobody will ever fault you writing stuff down and it's a very good habit. Good job!

- I also appreciate that you're not rushing to respond on the radio. Some people really go into rapid fire I-have-to-answer-right-this-second mode and haven't thought about exactly what they are going to say before the Mash-To-Mumble button (compared to a Push-To-Talk button) is depressed. Granted at some places you'll want to go a little faster but honestly, I'd rather see a nice consistent pace where your mouth isn't going with brain a mile behind it. Excellent job. What you want to say will come more naturally and faster with practice. And this is the way to start!

- Great video and audio work as well as use of visuals to explain what was going on. You working on your CFI next? ;) (Not to mention writing and editing! I know how much work that is! Nicely done!)

Critique and lesson over! When do you want to meet up to fly in some really insanely busy airspace? :)

You're ready for that next challenge maybe with an experienced pilot or CFI hanging out in the right seat enjoying the view and able to help out if things went too fast. A good plan for your next challenge is a flight plan that'll take you through or near a Bravo with VFR advisories. Some things you'll notice are a LOT more calls for other aircraft and you'll start working on that nearly automatic brain filter that learns to (at first) only hear calls for your tail number.

A little more practice after that and you'll learn to hear "stuff near your location" for situational awareness while still filtering out the call to the guy descending out of the flight levels to a waypoint you know where it is, and it's miles and miles away.

You'll know you're getting really good at it when you can be carrying on a conversation with someone on board in cruise and your brain registers a call for someone else and you stop and say, "they're going to descend him right in front of us right to left", and you point and there goes the traffic. (Maybe even beating the controller to their next call, "Cherokee 80A, traffic 2 o'clock descending out of 5000, will cross in front of you."

"Traffic in sight, Cherokee 80A..." oh it feels sooooo good. Mastery of the element and working from "pilot" to "aviator".

Nice job, airman!
 
My first XC solo was to KFAT. It wasn't that big of a deal. Anticlimactic, really.
 
Enjoyed the video! Keep making them. :) It'd be so easy to edit out the mistakes, but kudos for leaving all the scars and blemishes as learning tools. It's a rare flight where even a professional pilot doesn't make a flub or two.

It adds just a little time on frequency, but I like to end most calls/responses with the last three characters of my N-number (full number for initial contact to Approach and Tower, and for landing clearance).

"Say again" is my favorite thing...I never hesitate to use it!
 
My first XC solo was to KFAT. It wasn't that big of a deal. Anticlimactic, really.
I've flown in there with airliners, CANG, CalFire and CAP all operating at the same time. CANG and CAP on significant exercises, CalFire on a real fire. It can get nuts. Or it can be dead quiet.
 
"Cherokee eight zero alpha" :thumbsup:

"Cherokee zero alpha" :nono:

You can use the last three after the initial contact of using the full call sign, just don't use the last two. As a controller I look at this a bit differently than as a pilot. (I'm both) I actually cringed when I heard the approach controller say, "report the (airport) in sight" and there was this pregnant pause as you seemed to be reminded, "oh yeah, I've got to look for that" then you looked out the window and finally responded with (whatever it was.)

If you don't have it in sight just say "wilco" but if you had it in sight, of course say "I have it in sight" as the controller (and other pilots) is/are waiting on a response from you before they can continue.

Lastly the approach/departure can be interpreted in two ways. Sure he said contact approach when you thought he should have said departure but the same argument could be said that he told me to contact departure on approach's frequency. Not a big deal either way, just make sure you're on the frequency they give you.

That being said, your video shown warts and all, are how people learn. Editing a video where everything is perfect might be entertaining but not very informative. Thanks for posting that.
 
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"Cherokee eight zero alpha" :thumbsup:

"Cherokee zero alpha" :nono:

You can use the last three after the initial contact of using the full call sign, just don't use the last two. As a controller I look at this a bit differently than as a pilot. (I'm both) I actually cringed when I heard the approach controller say, "report the (airport) in sight" and there was this pregnant pause as you seemed to be reminded, "oh yeah, I've got to look for that" then you looked out the window and finally responded with (whatever it was.)

If you don't have it in sight just say "wilco" but if you had it in sight, of course say "I have it in sight" as the controller (and other pilots) is/are waiting on a response from you before they can continue.

Lastly the approach/departure can be interpreted in two ways. Sure he said contact approach when you though he should have said departure but the same argument could be said that he told me to contact departure on approach's frequency. Not a big deal either way, just make sure you're on the frequency they give you.

That being said, your video shown warts and all are how people learn. Editing a video where everything is perfect might be entertaining but not very informative. Thanks for posting that.
I've noticed more and more pilots using the last to numbers/letters. I don't know why.:dunno:
 
I haven't flown into a tower controlled airport in awhile and wanted to "knock the rust off". I'm sure there are several low time VFR pilots like myself that are a bit apprehensive about doing this...don't be! I filmed my interactions with ATC during Approach, Tower hand off, and Departure. I obviously have a long ways to go to get "fluent" again in ATC but I thought this video might nudge some apprehensive pilots into accomplishing this...


It's funny you mentioned getting out of your comfort zone and flying into busy airspace with ATC, but for me, my comfort zone is busy airspace with ATC. So, I've been challenging myself by landing at at least one non-towered field on every flight lately. I was very anxious about it the first few times. Still a bit sloppy, but getting better.
 
"Cherokee eight zero alpha" :thumbsup:

You can use the last three after the initial contact of using the full call sign, just don't use the last two. As a controller I look at this a bit differently than as a pilot. (I'm both) I actually cringed when I heard the approach controller say, "report the (airport) in sight" and there was this pregnant pause as you seemed to be reminded, "oh yeah, I've got to look for that" then you looked out the window and finally responded with (whatever it was.)

If you don't have it in sight just say "wilco" but if you had it in sight, of course say "I have it in sight" as the controller (and other pilots) is/are waiting on a response from you before they can continue.

Lastly the approach/departure can be interpreted in two ways. Sure he said contact approach when you though he should have said departure but the same argument could be said that he told me to contact departure on approach's frequency. Not a big deal either way, just make sure you're on the frequency they give you.

That being said, your video shown warts and all are how people learn. Editing a video where everything is perfect might be entertaining but not very informative. Thanks for posting that.


Apparently my flight school manager got a call from the tower recently complaining about pilots who rent from the school abbreviating their call signs before being given permission to. I was kind of baffled, since I've NEVER been given permission to abbreviate (nor ever heard anyone on the frequency being given permission). I always abbreviate after we've established initial contact and they've given me my runway assignment. Is there some protocol I'm missing?

To your point about approach/control... as long as I'm on the right frequency, I don't think they care what I call them.
 
I like the video, really good job with the narration and the graphics, you also presented it in a fun way, and explained everything quite well, if you aren't already you should work towards your CFI.



Of course it's POA so I got to arm chair a little ;)

When you were leaving and you said they messed up when they called it approach vs departure, meh, as long as the freq is right, doesn't matter, I've gotten in the habit of just dropping the one from read backs, we're VHF, so they all start in 1, 119.75, I'll just say 19.75, but in that clip I only head .75, as for calling them approach or departure, heck 3/4 of the time I call them all approach, you can call them "radar" for all they care as long as you're on the right freq.

Just using the last two of the tail number, sure, I do it, as long as it's not your first call up, normally I'll do it for a response,
ATC "airplane 172 Charley echo, report field in sight"
ME "Charley Echo"
 
Apparently my flight school manager got a call from the tower recently complaining about pilots who rent from the school abbreviating their call signs before being given permission to. I was kind of baffled, since I've NEVER been given permission to abbreviate (nor ever heard anyone on the frequency being given permission). I always abbreviate after we've established initial contact and they've given me my runway assignment. Is there some protocol I'm missing?

To your point about approach/control... as long as I'm on the right frequency, I don't think they care what I call them.
You get "permission" when tower abbreviates your call sign. If they use your full call sign, you should technically still use it too.
 
I'd say only 20% ish of folks follow that rule.

Never been yelled at for dropping a few digits on my reply back to ATC.
 
I'd say only 20% ish of folks follow that rule.

Never been yelled at for dropping a few digits on my reply back to ATC.

I think the issue is that we have several planes in the fleet that end in ND. The complaint came in on a Saturday, which is always the busiest day of the week at our airport... guessing there was confusion between some of the planes w/ATC.
 
I think the issue is that we have several planes in the fleet that end in ND. The complaint came in on a Saturday, which is always the busiest day of the week at our airport... guessing there was confusion between some of the planes w/ATC.

For sure, in that case, 7ND or whatever.
 
Cajun, the "protocol" is on initial contact with ATC (and they with you) is to use the entire call sign. After that, both parties (if they want to) can shorten to the last three for brevity. But either use November (last three) or Cessna/Cherokee/whatever (last three), not just the last three. There are those who will argue that you shouldn't use the last three until the controller abbreviates your call sign. Personally, I don't care; the quicker I can get to the point of saying less, the better off we both will be.
 
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It's funny you mentioned getting out of your comfort zone and flying into busy airspace with ATC, but for me, my comfort zone is busy airspace with ATC. So, I've been challenging myself by landing at at least one non-towered field on every flight lately. I was very anxious about it the first few times. Still a bit sloppy, but getting better.

I feel the same way. I trained, rented, and based at towered airports and found non-towered airports to be challenging for quite some time after getting my PPL.
 
To your point about approach/control... as long as I'm on the right frequency, I don't think they care what I call them.
Just don't call them late for dinner.
 
Apparently my flight school manager got a call from the tower recently complaining about pilots who rent from the school abbreviating their call signs before being given permission to. I was kind of baffled, since I've NEVER been given permission to abbreviate (nor ever heard anyone on the frequency being given permission). I always abbreviate after we've established initial contact and they've given me my runway assignment. Is there some protocol I'm missing?

To your point about approach/control... as long as I'm on the right frequency, I don't think they care what I call them.

I rented for a while at KFUL and the operator had THREE white 172's with the exact same paint scheme, right down to the tail art, and the tail numbers were 1 digit apart on the FIRST number. So.. truncating was disaster since there were 3 Censna 123's based at the field.

I'd check on coming back to the airport and they'd say November 21123, use full call sign, company aircraft in the area.

I decided I never wanted that kind of cuteness in my fleet :)

There's another thread for it, but I can't abbreviate my call sign.
 
It's funny you mentioned getting out of your comfort zone and flying into busy airspace with ATC, but for me, my comfort zone is busy airspace with ATC. So, I've been challenging myself by landing at at least one non-towered field on every flight lately. I was very anxious about it the first few times. Still a bit sloppy, but getting better.

I sure got out of my comfort zone yesterday.

I'm quite comfy in very busy airspace, and at towered airports of all sizes short of large Class B airports.

But yesterday, in very heavy traffic with an obvious tower trainee, there were a hell of a lot of mistakes. The worst was not extending the upwind for a departing student pilot, as we entered the downwind. Poor kid turned right at us, about 1/4 mile away; we saw it and dived (as he was already above us), full power, and turned crosswind. In a 182, we could clearly outrun his 172 and once we did, we turned back to downwind. Then Tower gave him a traffic call about us (a bit late there...). Prior, they had been completely unresponsive to initial contact (not even an "aircraft calling stand by"), so we repeated ourselves several times 1 minute apart until we finally asked if they were receiving. After, they forgot to sequence us, then extended our downwind with unspecified termination, until we questioned it as we entered the neighboring Class D. We requested and received the option, but decided there were far too many mistakes going on, so we pulled off the runway and waited for a handoff to ground. Then we called twice saying we were terminating (local procedure), then someone else landed and we got told to "begin your taxi" with no clearance or frequency. So we read back what we were doing -- taxi row H with tower -- got out of the way, then asked for confirmation of taxi clearance.

What a bloody mess.

And I know someone in the tower had a bad day.
 
I sure got out of my comfort zone yesterday.

I'm quite comfy in very busy airspace, and at towered airports of all sizes short of large Class B airports.

But yesterday, in very heavy traffic with an obvious tower trainee, there were a hell of a lot of mistakes. The worst was not extending the upwind for a departing student pilot, as we entered the downwind. Poor kid turned right at us, about 1/4 mile away; we saw it and dived (as he was already above us), full power, and turned crosswind. In a 182, we could clearly outrun his 172 and once we did, we turned back to downwind. Then Tower gave him a traffic call about us (a bit late there...). Prior, they had been completely unresponsive to initial contact (not even an "aircraft calling stand by"), so we repeated ourselves several times 1 minute apart until we finally asked if they were receiving. After, they forgot to sequence us, then extended our downwind with unspecified termination, until we questioned it as we entered the neighboring Class D. We requested and received the option, but decided there were far too many mistakes going on, so we pulled off the runway and waited for a handoff to ground. Then we called twice saying we were terminating (local procedure), then someone else landed and we got told to "begin your taxi" with no clearance or frequency. So we read back what we were doing -- taxi row H with tower -- got out of the way, then asked for confirmation of taxi clearance.

What a bloody mess.

And I know someone in the tower had a bad day.

Yeah. You should always keep your uncontrolled airport mindset active. There have been a lot of threads here, some about near misses, where just keeping a picture of what's going on could have stopped a problem. If I remember right, the neighborhood of crosswind seems to come up often. Getting an "extend downwind" without anything else should always make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.
 
Because saying three things is hard.

:D:D When I was choosing my N-number, I took great pains to use numbers/letters that were easy to say quickly. I always hated to fly Zero Zero Uniform (a rental Cherokee that Skate on this forum has also flown)...hard for me to get that out cleanly.
 
:D:D When I was choosing my N-number, I took great pains to use numbers/letters that were easy to say quickly. I always hated to fly Zero Zero Uniform (a rental Cherokee that Skate on this forum has also flown)...hard for me to get that out cleanly.
Uniform is a mouthful.

I wonder how much ATC would hate NUUUUU. Or N000ZZ. Good luck with that one.
 
I feel the same way. I trained, rented, and based at towered airports and found non-towered airports to be challenging for quite some time after getting my PPL.

I got my PPL and IR at a towered airport (Class D airspace). We did lots of T&G's at a nearby untowered airport. Did approach work at both untowered and towered airports. I got an excellent mix, so feel good about going to most places. I prefer towered for IFR flights, especially departures as doing it on the phone can be a PITA at times.

Never used a grass runway though, always paved.
 
:D:D When I was choosing my N-number, I took great pains to use numbers/letters that were easy to say quickly. I always hated to fly Zero Zero Uniform (a rental Cherokee that Skate on this forum has also flown)...hard for me to get that out cleanly.

Tell me about it. Mine is N5660U. I have N962TM reserved for my RV-7 once its built.
 
nice video, it does seem to be a bit overwhelming sometimes. I learned in a class C under a Bravo shelf so i got to deal with approach and departure every flight.
 
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